Question: Cyclist v Pedestrian passing stationary traffic

gombean

Hi I am a cyclist in Dublin. I was involved in an 'incident' with a pedestrian on Wednesday 5th September.

Basically a pedestrian crossing the road in front of stationary heavy traffic didn’t look down the cycle lane as she crossed the front of a bus. Well I was on the cycle lane!

I was cycling on Phisboro Road, on my way into town. Traffic was stationary on my right (heading in the same direction), but I was on the cycle lane. The next set of traffic lights was over 100m ahead. Just passed the shop Fado, (across from the Casino place), a bus (long snake one) was in the traffic, stationary. I was cycling at a normal pass. It was a straight road heading into town,the next major juction was over 500m away, at the top of Constution Hill by Broadstone except for some lanes into the Royal Canal Bank. As I approached the top of the bus, a lady appeared from in front of the bus, walking. She didn’t look down the cycle lane to see me. I was literally near the top of the bus, so I pulled on the breaks. Unfortunately that meant I went over my handle bars, hit my head on side of bus and landed on my left hip and left elbow and right hand. The pedestrian was ok, I didn’t hit her. She had obviously walked from the other side of the road, walked across the front of the bus and didn’t think to look to her left. I was in shock, and shouted at her 'what are you doing'. She replied 'Im sorry, i not look'. The bus driver opened her door to see that I was alright and asked what happened. I was in tears and just said ' she appeared from nowhere'. I managed to pick my self up (Thanks God) and pull myself off the road and onto the footpath. There were no scratches on my legs, but my hip, elbow and hand were all bleeding. But later I realised both legs were severely bruised. The pedestrian kept saying sorry and left. She then came back and asked if I needed medicine. I just told her to go away. I managed to cycle to the top of constitution Hill as its down hill. But i was still in shock and crying, so I had to walk from there. I was lost and didnt know where to go. I made my own way to a pharmacy- on parnell st, where the chemist cleaned my wounds and gave me cream and plasters and a lovely cup of tea.

Anyway my question is - whos to blame and what would have happened if I did hit her.

I couldnt go to work, so I lost a days pay. My rain jacket ripped on the arm, so its useless. I also have my driving test in a week, and now I cant practice as my elbow is still swollen. The gear adjustors on my handle bars are badly scratched and my bell (which i bought 3 weeks ago) is broken. Its the whole inconvenience of it all.


I didnt take the lady's name. But if I did, could I have done something?

Any advice would be appreciated. I know I cant do anything now, but if this ever happened again, I would like to be better informed.

Ham'nd'egger

First off, I am sorry to hear of your crash and I hope you are feeling a little better today.

Unless you can identify and contact the girl, there is less than very little you can do, sadly. At least if you knew that much, you could try ask her for a few bob towards what you lost; eg fixing your bike, first aid, etc. From the point of view of a car driver, people wandering on roads are a real pain and a danger; you have seen it firsthand now.

seamus

Generally, there's very little you can do. You were in the right - the pedestrian was jaywalking through heavy traffic. If you had gotten you details, you could theoretically bring a civil case against her for your costs.

If you had clattered into her and it ended up in court, chances are the judge would have decided that you both pay your own costs and go your separate ways.

The hassle of bringing the woman to court would be a much bigger inconvenience than being sore for a few days, IMO. That said, if the injuries were more serious (back problems, broken limbs, deep wounds), then there's every reason to bring a civil case.

Even if you know what you can/should do, the shock of these incidents can lead people to do very strange things. I remember coming upon an accident one day, where a space wagon had literally mounted another vehicle in a head-on collision. The driver of the space wagon was in so much shock he was wandering around the bystanders looking for change, "Coppers only". He definitely wasn't drunk.

It's a tough lesson to learn, but you can't trust anyone else on the roads to do the right thing. Heavy traffic can be a bit of a nightmare - pedestrians constantly step through without looking.

constellation

My sympathies. As a cyclist, I've taken a few tumbles over the years but I can only guess at your pain. The pharmacist sounds like a good person and am glad that you were helped.

Anywho, back to your question. You will not like the answer. Strictly speaking you are to blame. I appreciate that the pedestrian didn't look before stepping out in front of you but you have to be aware that someone may do that. In spite of any lemming like behaviour exhibited by pedestrians it is not okay for a car to hit them. Same rule applies for bicycles. It is unlikely you would have any legal recourse or that any Guard would be willing to act on your complaint.

My advice is to slow down to a speed where you can react comfortably to any sudden events such as suicidal strollers especially if your field of view is restricted.

Fortunately you did not hit the pedestrian. Unfortunately you got injured in the process. You have suffered physical and monetary injury. Such things happen all the time and all we can do is take away any possible lessons for such incidents to avoid a repeat.

Be careful out there.

IRISH RAIL

I can understand what your going through, ill give you two stories with two different outcomes.
first i pass by a centra every day its ok on the up journey but coming home im on the same side a it people park at the side of the road so there i was its downhill and im bombing along, then i knew it was going to happen . dont know how but i sensed it. he pulled out the brakes were a little dodgy and i didnt have a chance, over his bonnet, I flipped and was calling the garuds he offered me 200 quid for a new front wheel well I took the money and ran!!

second story is a bit worse
I was going down a cycle lane, really moving and there was a foriegn guy walking on the right, I was in the far left, next of all he started going left i couldnt move cause it was that close i hit his hand with the handlebars!!
you should have heard the crack I reckon i broke it easily no doubt in mind about that but i kept going didnt even look back im racked with guilt ever since but these things happen he will watch were hes going in future
( but ouch i can still hear that hand go )

dermo88

Something like your incident with the 200 quid happened to me when I was a kid on holidays in Wexford. Some thick farmer pulled out of Pettitts supermarket, bumped me. I was screaming blue murder, and ready to kill him (I was'nt injured, but the bike was damaged). He just handed me 50 quid, and that was in 1990.

I was lucky.

Hotblack Desiato

seamus wrote:

Generally, there's very little you can do. You were in the right - the pedestrian was jaywalking through heavy traffic.

The jaywalking is true, but the OP was not in the right either - they were breaking the rules of the road by being unable to stop in the distance they could see to be clear.

Where your vision is restricted you MUST slow down - whether you're pedal powered or motor powered.

BrianD3

ninja900 wrote:

they were breaking the rules of the road by being unable to stop in the distance they could see to be clear.

Does not apply in this situation as the pedestrian walked out into the path of the cyclist without looking. Cyclist probabaly was able to stop in the distance he could see to be clear but the careless behavior of the pedestrian put him in that space.

Now if the cyclist had rounded a blind bend and collided with a stationary object in the cycle lane then it would be applicable.

Victor

Pedestrians should not cross where the vehicles are higher than them. While this is particularly important for children (most vehicles are taller than them), it seems that it is adults who get caught out.

Cyclists passing left of slow or stopped traffic should proceed slowly and cautiously, especially where the vehicles are higher than them.

dermo88 wrote:

I was screaming blue murder

On Friday night I was cut off by a motorist (her in the right hand lane, turning left) outside TCD and I caught up with her on Nassau Street and gave her a substantial part of my mind.

Pedestrians were applauding me. :embarrassed:

daymobrew

Victor wrote:

Pedestrians should not cross where the vehicles are higher than them. While this is particularly important for children (most vehciles are taller than them), it seems that it is adults who get caught out.

Cyclists passing left of slow or stopped traffic should proceed slowly and cautiously, especially where the vehicles are higher than them.

Agreed on both counts.
I remember cycling along Navan Road (near Nephin Road). A pedestrian crossed in front of a stopped bus as I was riding alongside. The bus driver beeped to warn the pedestrian of my approach.
Before I got to the bus I'd seen the pedestrian on the other side of the bus and saw her through the front window of the bus so I was able to stop.

These things are learned from experience. I've been lucky to learn them without getting hurt.

In the past I've had very low speed collisions with pedestrians on O'Connell Street, one of the worst areas for jaywalking. No one was hurt in any way. Like Victor, I've let loose with the abuse. I made one guy feel 2 inches tall. I don't have any guilt. Thinking about the incidents makes me mad.

OP - Sorry to hear about the pain you're in. You must have some brakes!

thehomeofDob

It's ridiculous what pedestrians will do. The trinity end of Grafton St. where you cross over the small road that leeds out onto Dame St is awful. People always walk before the green man when they see no cars, but not when there are cyclists. I've seen on two occasions a host of people scurry across the road and make a cyclist try and weave in between them all.

gombean

Hi thanks guys for the replies to my questions. I have learned a valuable lesson and will take Victors advice on board.

Victor wrote:

Cyclists passing left of slow or stopped traffic should proceed slowly and cautiously, especially where the vehicles are higher than them.

Thinking back I am so angry at the woman. But I am so glad I was able to pick myself up, with no broken bones. My legs are badly bruised so no skirts for a while.

The breaks on my bike were tightened a month ago and I am now grateful for that, as it meant an instant stop!

I am a cautious cyclist and constantly observing for pedestrians on the left, but now I will be more careful of potential pedestrians passing in front of large vehicles on my right.

Victor

I hope you are feeling a bit better. Treat yourself to something nice!

gombean wrote:

The breaks on my bike were tightened a month ago and I am now grateful for that, as it meant an instant stop!

Be careful with this. I haven't cycled in a long while and have only gone back to it in the last 6 weeks. Learn to apply the rear brake before the front brake.

Applying the front brake only or first is more likely to cause you to go over the handle bars. Also sitting high is useful for seeing over cars, but make sure you aren't sitting too high as this hugely raises your centre of gravity.

Tea drinker

Yeah glad you are feeling better, that was a bad ould knock ya got.
The roads really are getting more dangerous, and TBH we should all do a compulsory safety course every 2 years or so, from pedestrian, cyclist and motorist perspective.
Another one to watch for that I frequently see people having a problem with is where traffic stops to let a car pull out, or turn across them.
The cyclists don't see it and then there is roaring or worse. Just as motorists are obligated to look (and assist) so are cyclists this is specifically mentioned in the new rules of the road.

But we all make mistakes... I had a cyclist across my bonnet a few years back. I looked left, clear, pulled out when I guy to my right waved me out, and bang, a cyclist going the wrong way hit me. I should've looked left again (kids etc)... he should've been on the right side of the road.
Of course if I pulled out far enough to block the cycle lane it would have been fine! :eek:

W31rd0

thehomeofDob wrote:

It's ridiculous what pedestrians will do.

Agree there. You have to make allowances but sometimes :eek: you just have to watch out for yourself.

Once I was flying up North quayside and just before the ha'penny bridge the last of the cars passed me. I could see a couple of pedestrians saw me ... but not the huge bunch that all stepped into the road just after the last car! :eek: Green light for me. Didn't hit anyone hard thankfully brakes in good condition.

Victor's advice is good. You have to watch out for yourself and assume the worst. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes so we have to cycle/drive defensively (and with tolerance too to make the road experience happy smiley (albeit perhaps less exciting!) for all :-P)

Also watch out even more in wet weather as brakes won't work as well, skids happen more easily AND cars/bikes might have less visibility.

Hotblack Desiato

BrianD3 wrote:

Does not apply in this situation as the pedestrian walked out into the path of the cyclist without looking. Cyclist probabaly was able to stop in the distance he could see to be clear but the careless behavior of the pedestrian put him in that space.

That's totally irresponsible imho, it's a fact of life that pedestrians do break the rules and you should leave some allowance for this, especially if there's any possibility children are about. Even in a collision with a bicycle, a pedestrian will usually come off the worst.

seamus

ninja900 wrote:

That's totally irresponsible imho, it's a fact of life that pedestrians do break the rules and you should leave some allowance for this, especially if there's any possibility children are about. Even in a collision with a bicycle, a pedestrian will usually come off the worst.

Actually, I would disagree with that in theory. While in some cases, the pedestrian may come off worse, a cyclist has the possibility of flying free of the bike and coming in contact with something much more solid than another person at a fair speed. The front of a bike has a pretty thin profile - at worst the pedestrian will be hit in the leg by a rubber tyre and in the hip by a thin steel bar.

BrianD3

ninja900 wrote:

That's totally irresponsible imho, it's a fact of life that pedestrians do break the rules and you should leave some allowance for this, especially if there's any possibility children are about. Even in a collision with a bicycle, a pedestrian will usually come off the worst.

I agree that you should leave some allowance and it's in everyone's interest to avoid a collision. But I was responding to your post about the cyclist being in the wrong because he couldn't stop in the distance he could see to be clear. This is not really applicable in the OP's situation. The careless actions of the pedestrian were outside his control and resulted in the pedestrian ending up in the cyclists "braking space"

Lets say you are driving along a main road and a car pulls out of a side road when you are 1 foot away from them. You hit them. Are you now at fault because you weren't driving slowly enough to stop in that 1 foot? Of course not. See where I'm coming from now

Tea drinker

Well, true to an extent. Cyclists are, in Ireland at least young / semi fit people (with a tendency to bounce). Who they hit may not be.

Having said that, are cyclists and motorcyclists taking note of some of the rather dangerous looking cast Iron demarcations / bollards being erected at the side of the road? I'd say helmet or not, give those yolks a header and you'll have more than a headache.

constellation

BrianD3 wrote:

Lets say you are driving along a main road and a car pulls out of a side road when you are 1 foot away from them. You hit them. Are you now at fault because you weren't driving slowly enough to stop in that 1 foot? Of course not. See where I'm coming from now

Whether you are right or wrong in the eyes of the law will not make much difference if you are dead as a result of a collision. Every road user, whether car drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, etc., needs to be careful and aware that not everyone follows the rules of the road.

david1two3

I turned left off Clapham High rd at the first Clapham tube station, as I did this a guy walked in front of me and as I went over the bars he tried to get out of my way. As I grabbed him I said "where the fcuk do you think your going" and landed on top of him purposely. I had no injuries as such, he was shook up. He got up silently and walked away. If I hadnt grabbed him my injuries would have been pretty bad up to and includin the possibility of a broken collar bone and at least road rash.My take on it was that he was entirely to blame and I was using him as a cushion.Fifteen stone landing right on top of you is a bit hairy and that may have explained his reluctance to be friendly. I always choose the softest landing unless of cousre they are old, frail or children, if its my fault I will gladly take the hit.

Tea drinker

Well, if a car driver did this, the guy would be more than shook up, he would be fuked up. On the other hand, it would automatically be assumed the car driver was wrong and have a claim against his insurance, at best.
Why not against you?
Having said that, if he did cause the whole thing, and you were injured, where would you claim to recover your medical costs? Should we all have mandatory personal insurance to cover stuff like this? So this guys insurance goes up to cover (I assume) his not looking when crossing the road causing an accident. People could be more careful if it costs money - strangely as your health is of more importance.

I've had that broken collar bone injury - it's painful alright. My own fault as I was doing some offroad crap.

Gavin

Tea drinker wrote: »

I've had that broken collar bone injury - it's painful alright. My own fault as I was doing some offroad crap.

Yeah, probably best to stick with permanent toilets. Mind you, I haven't heard of many people getting a broken collar bone as a result of takin a dump off-road.

Gav

Victor

++