Legal angle on pigeons

sixpointfive

Can anyone shed any light on this,i had planned to shoot a couple of pigeons on a bit of land belonging to a good buddy of mine, the fields were planted with corn and are in the process of being cut this week, we were all set for action tomorrow but he has just rang me to say that he has been advised that it is illegal to shoot pigeons over stubble fields, and that some guys had their guns confiscated in the last couple of weeks around the country for doing so, has any 0ne else heard of this???

stevoman

i havnt heard anything of the sort.
maybe it was illegal to shoot pigeons over a stubble field without permission from the landowner.

sixpointfive

Negative, the land owner is a big time shooter and he will be shooting them with me.

stevoman

to be honest i have never heard of that before. where the lads who were shooting tresspassing? this is the exact time of year to shoot pigeons over stubbles so i wouldnt worry about it. in fact there is some confusion over pigeons, that being there is a season, but they are also classed as vermin.


Hunting Seasons for Wild Birds and Wild Mammals
2005 - 2006



SPECIES
OPEN SEASON

Red Grouse
1 September to

30 September

Mallard, Teal, Gadwall, Wigeon, Pintail, Shovelled, Scaup, Tufted Duck, Pochard, Goldeneye, Golden Plover, Snipe, Jack Snipe
1 September to

31 January

Red-legged Partridge
1 November to

31 January

Cock Pheasant, Woodcock
1 November to

31 January

Curlew
1 November to

30 November

Canada Geese (Countrywide)
1 September to

15 October

Canada Geese (Counties Cavan and Leitrim only) and excluding the following townlands: Eonish Island, Rinn and Deramfield (Cavan) and tahe River Shannon (Leitrim)
1 October to

31 January

Greylag Geese (Countrywide)
1 September to

15 October

Greylag Geese (Lady's Island, Co. Wexford and Gearagh East Gearagh West in Co. Cork only
1 October to

31 January

Woodpigeon
1 June to 31 January

VERMIN

Species classed as vermin which can be shot throughout the year

according to the THIRD SCHEDULE of the Wildlife Act 1976



BIRDS

Bullfinch

Carrion Crow

Greater Black-backed Gull

Herring Gull

Hooded (Grey) Crow

House Sparrow

Jackdaw

Jay

Lesser Black-backed Gull

Magpie

Pigeons, including Wood Pigeon, but not including carrier pigeons, racing horning pigeons or doves

Rook

Starling

foxhunter

Ive never heard of that and ive been shootin them for a long time now.
Maybe they were beside the road or didn't have permission from the landowner

sixpointfive

Apparantley the law is that if the corn is not cut its okay to shoot but when the corn is cut its a no go and there have been several cases in the last few weeks with wildlife rangers taking guns, i would not believe it myself only its coming from a very reliable source. i would like to know coz there are lots of pigeond around where we were going to shoot but im not risking a load of legal bull**** for a few pigeons.

ShowAndGo

That sounds like a Chinese whispers story to me. Those guys could have got their guns confiscated for any number of reasons and I'm sure it was not because they were shooting over stubble.

Just make sure you are not near roads, houses or people and enjoy your shooting!!

alan123

Yeah thats baloney, they were shooting without permission. The rangers are out alright, it must be in response to the red kite.

To play devils advocate... a ranger must be accompanied by a member of An Garda Siochana to sieze a weapon, although an 'authorised officer' they still can not carry an unlicenced firearm, it must be a Guard who takes possesion of it as they are exempt from licencing legislation. (did I just open a can of worms?!!)

.243

alan123 wrote:

Yeah thats baloney, they were shooting without permission. The rangers are out alright, it must be in response to the red kite.

To play devils advocate... a ranger must be accompanied by a member of An Garda Siochana to sieze a weapon, although an 'authorised officer' they still can not carry an unlicenced firearm, it must be a Guard who takes possesion of it as they are exempt from licencing legislation. (did I just open a can of worms?!!)

nope you are spot on

cavan shooter

As said above If you have permission or on gun club land and your shooting in season and safely. There shouldn't be any hassel,

Terrier

Lads,
A pigeon season was introduced 2 years ago and runs from the 1st June to 31st Janurary, this was introduced as part of an EU directive. This was well publicsed by the NARGC at the time.

The article was on the old NARGC website but seems to have been removed from the new website..

Pigeons can still be shot out of season for the purpose of crop protection but you must prove that all other methods of crop protection failed e.g. bangers

P.S. - Stevoman the following have been removed from the vermin list over the past decade or so
Bullfinch
House Sparrow
Jay
Starling

cavan shooter

Having read terriers post, I'd say that the lads your talking about had an excuse to shoot the pigeons while the crops where flattened thus vermin. But when it is stubble you can only shoot pigeons in season......

rrpc

But according to Terrier's post the pigeon season also runs from 1st June to 31st January. Surely that allows for shooting over stubble as that would occur in the timeframe?

ShowAndGo

sixpointfive,

How did your shooting go? Did you hear any more details about those guys that has their guns confiscated?

grassynoel

This is what Ive heard.

Pigeons are on the Open Seasons Order - ie a game bird. Season runs from November 1st to January 31st since 2003 when it was changed.

ALL birds are protected under EU Birds Directive.

Derogation to Birds directive is published in press every couple of months for the four provinces allowing certain birds such as pigeons, rooks, grey crows and magpies etc to be killed (by specified methods) when they are causing serious damage to crops or fauna.

So the question is, is shooting a 'game' bird over stubbles protecting the crop that has already been cut??????????
Would depend on the individual circumstances I would presume??

The Villain

WHen you shoot the pigeons under derogation, ie out of their sporting season, they are being shot as a pest under crop protection. I shoot lots of pigeon, and my uptake on it is that you should only shoot the pigeon on stubble fields.One may argue that how are you protecting the crop when the crop has been harvesting. My take on this one, is that if you were to shoot pigeons in a field of standing barley, and go out and collect every pigeon that you shot, you would do more damage to the crops than the pigeons would!!!

So because pigeons are birds, and by their very nature fly to the fields for feeding, it is reasonable to assume that they will be passing of other fields on their way to the feeding grounds, and as it will be in the countryside, it is fair to say that they will be flying over stubble fields. Pigeons will fly several miles to get good easy feeding, so the fact that you are shooting pigeons in a stubble fields some distance from the next standing corn field, is in fact protecting that corn field.

Any wildlife ranger that argues this point with you shouldn't be calling himself a ranger.

J.R.

Hunting Seasons for Wild Birds and Wild Mammals 2005-2006 SPECIES OPEN SEASON
Red Grouse 1 September to 30 September
Mallard, Teal, Gadwall, Wigeon, Pintail, Shovelled, Scaup, Tufted Duck, Pochard, Goldeneye, Golden Plover, Snipe, Jack Snipe 1 September to 31 January
Red-legged Partridge 1 November to 31 January
Cock Pheasant, Woodcock 1 November to 31 January
Curlew 1 November to 30 November
Canada Geese (Countrywide) 1 September to 15 October
Canada Geese (Counties Cavan and Leitrim only) and excluding the following townlands: Eonish Island, Rinn and Deramfield (Cavan) and tahe River Shannon (Leitrim) 1 October to 31 January
Greylag Geese (Countrywide) 1 September to 15 October
Greylag Geese (Lady's Island, Co. Wexford and Gearagh East Gearagh West in Co. Cork only 1 October to 31 January
Woodpigeon 1 June to 31 January

Check these websites:
http://www.hiddenireland.com/shooting-in-ireland.htm
which states,

Pigeon Shooting
Pigeon shooting is generally confined to Hidden Ireland’s historic country houses in the grain growing regions in the east of the country, since the birds there are more concentrated and provide better sport. Shooting begins in July, when birds are shot, firstly over laid corn and subsequently over stubble, and this can continue until late September. Thereafter, evening roost shooting can produce exciting sport and good bags.

and
http://www.longuevillehouse.ie/news/woodpigeon.html
which states,
Wild Wood Pigeon Shooting
As fields of barley and wheat begin to ripen and the harvest draws near, the guns are dusted down and oiled up in anticipation of shooting pigeon along the fertile lands of the Blackwater Valley. The shooting season begins the last week of July until the last week of August.

Expert tuition is provided by local ghillies that have shot and hunted in the valley all their lives. These ghillies are certified in gun safety.

The Villain

J.R. wrote:

Expert tuition is provided by local ghillies that have shot and hunted in the valley all their lives. These ghillies are certified in gun safety.

Hi JR,

Just as an aside...who certified the ghillies? I'm not aware of any recognised course being provided.

T.V.

grassynoel

Lads, page 17 of this months Digest shows the Open Seasons Order for 2007/2008 and Woodpigeon are down for Nov 1st to January 31st.

T.V.
Good point on doing more damage to standing barley by pivking up dead birds and pigeons feeding on standing corn beside/near stubbles.

To play Devils advocate for a moment, what would the situation be on areas where there is little/no tillage - can you shoot pigeons before Nov 1st? and then what happens in Tillage areas when all the crops are cut by mid september??? and certainly by October, will the crop protection derogation work then?

I never really shot over stubbles (non tillage area) but shooting pigeons coming in to roost in a wood can offer great shooting.

The Villain

Grassynoel,

If you give the line that the pigeons are crossing a flight line to fields that are some distance away, ie the little / no tillage areas, then you you use the crop protection stance. Between the mid-Sept to 1st Nov time frame, you could probably get away with crop protection still, because the winter oil seed rape would be planted and, and you would be just protecting it for your local farmer...assuming that there is some OSR in your locality.

TV

alan123

grassynoel wrote:

Lads, page 17 of this months Digest shows the Open Seasons Order for 2007/2008 and Woodpigeon are down for Nov 1st to January 31st.

T.V.
Good point on doing more damage to standing barley by pivking up dead birds and pigeons feeding on standing corn beside/near stubbles.

To play Devils advocate for a moment, what would the situation be on areas where there is little/no tillage - can you shoot pigeons before Nov 1st? and then what happens in Tillage areas when all the crops are cut by mid september??? and certainly by October, will the crop protection derogation work then?

I never really shot over stubbles (non tillage area) but shooting pigeons coming in to roost in a wood can offer great shooting.

As far as I know you can only shoot them out of season if they are doing substantial damage to a crop and at the farmers request. The whole deal is to leave them alone to breed, the days of shooting nests are gone for any bird I reckon.

In other countries especially France them hammer them all the time..... I spoke to a pigeon racer before (not letting on I love pigeon shooting!!) and he told me a lot of birds dont come back from races accross France! Vive la France!!!