1/2 NL - Acquarium, flopped straight, 350bb's deep

BigCityBanker

Ok at the start of the hand we are both playing c.700.

Anyway, Villian is a live straddle utg for 5. I call in mp with 6c7d.

Villian checks his option on the straddle. 3 to a flop and im in position. Pot 18

Flop 8h9h10s

Villian leads for 15, called in one spot and I make it 75.

Villian announces that he wants to "raise, to the max" - so he is all in, its folded to me.

Info on villian - he will be known to many live regs in the Fitz, im pretty sure his name is Ronan, plays omaha and holdem there, uses a watch face as a card protector - nice guy, quiet, my impression is that he is a good solid player and ive not seen him out of line at the table so far and has about 1 hour previously joined from the PL game.

Anyway - anybody like to squeze their butt cheeks and call

Hectorjelly

I dont think you should raise the flop, your hand has almost no value with 350bbs blinds behind, and you should want to keep the pot very small. There is very little money in the pot, and it wasnt raised preflop so no-one has an overpair to overplay.

The pot is roughly €180 when he has raised all in, and its about €500 for you to call. Your not getting a good price at all, so need to be relatively confident you have the best hand a lot of the time, especially because QJ and 8J have you drawing dead, and nearly every other hand he turns up with is 50 50 with you, bar sets.

This hand would be totally and utterly different if it was just 100bbs

Flushdraw

Yeah thats Ronan. I think he's one of the better players on the Dublin scene and he's not putting his money in there without a big hand.

Your hand is quite vulnerable because theres a lot of redraws out there and if Ronan doesnt already have QJ, J7 or 76, he'll be drawing to something thats beating you and be about 35% to hit it.

For the amount of times that you're already behind here, i think i fold although i probably brainfart call if i was sitting in your seat.

eoghan104

Its probably a fold against Ronan to be honest. Ive played alot of PLO with him and he is one of the better players ive played against. I dont think he does this with a hand you beat except for something like Kh Jh or Ah Jh, but he doesnt show up with this kind of holding enough to make the call profitable as you are dead here alot.

Killme00

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont think you should raise the flop, your hand has almost no value with 350bbs blinds behind, and you should want to keep the pot very small. There is very little money in the pot, and it wasnt raised preflop so no-one has an overpair to overplay.

I think raising the flop is good here. I would have raised to 50 though not 75, why overbet? Another line would be to keep the pot small (as per HJ) until the turn and then raise, but i prefer to raise now as there are so many daws out there. You must fold now, villian most like has JT of hearts at a minimum.

BigCityBanker

75 is not an overbet

18 in pre, bet 15, call 15, I make it 75 - its a pot sized raise.

Killme00

BigCityBanker wrote:

75 is not an overbet

18 in pre, bet 15, call 15, I make it 75 - its a pot sized raise.

63 is pot i think?

BigCityBanker

Killme00 wrote:

63 is pot i think?

3*15 = 45 + 15 + 18 = 78

The quick method of calc a psr is to treble the last bet and add whats in the middle before that.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Primewise

Have only played with Ronan a few times but from what I've seen he'd probably be ahead most of the time in a situation like this.

AhJh is possible but he wont have it often enough to allow you to call.

Killme00

BigCityBanker wrote:

3*15 = 45 + 15 + 18 = 78

The quick method of calc a psr is to treble the last bet and add whats in the middle before that.

Im wrong sorry! I didnt see the caller

ollyk1

Killme00 wrote:

Exactly so 3 times 15 plus the 33 in the middle so 78

I hope this is right cause if not ive been betting less than pot unintentionally and far to often

I think you missed the live straddle preflop.

Ronan posts on boards btw so he might post his thoughts on this. Personally i'm leaning towards a marginal fold but Ronan is such a tellbox that I'd know what to do at the time!

Killme00

I didnt see the caller.(:cool: <- blind) This means i would definitely raise, calling with two vilians on this boards would'nt be good.

CaptainNemo

Looks to me like he is trying to protect his hand against a flush draw, I would think you should fold this. There's a vague possibility he has a set but the straight possibility is so obvious I think a solid player with a set will just call, because he should know that if he pushes he's only getting called by a made straight.

I'd fold, but don't show :-P Otherwise people may start thinking you can be pushed around...

HeeHawsCantona

for what its worth BCB I had J8 in this hand (I was the one stuck in the middle) and I think that in the context of the way this game was being played your pot sized bet was correct on the flop.

HeeHawsCantona

the other really interesting thing in this pot was the speechplay - Ronan said I will raise the max and started to count what he thought was the "pot" - I then declared "that means you're all in" which definitely got a reaction of sorts. After I folded BCB got to his feet and said "wow and I have a straight" - I think that on observing Ronan in the time that followed (over 5 minutes) I may have called. I think that your action was correct.

Tar.Aldarion

Tough...if he didn't mean to go all in it might make it easier to call. Still, if good, most of the time he beats you.

HeeHawsCantona

i suppose even a "pot bet" pot limit would commit his stack.

LuckyLloyd

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BigCityBanker

anyway i folded. I figured J 7 was the most likely holding. I felt I could rule out a set, overpair and AhJh or he would most likely have utilised his straddle preflop. I even felt he may have made it 15 to go preflop with QJ.

from what ive played with the villian i know he doesnt part with chips too easily and there was no way he was putting that money in the middle with a hand i beat. I folded face up - and HHC is correct - when it got to me on the flop facing the bet i said i had a made straight. He later told me he did have J 7 - i think he was surprised that I could fold a made straight against him? I just knew that long term calling in this spot against said villian was a bad option - good solid players like him dont do stupid things and putting his money in the middle at that point with anything I beat would be stupid.

ollyk1

BigCityBanker wrote:

anyway i folded. I figured J 7 was the most likely holding. I felt I could rule out a set, overpair and AhJh or he would most likely have utilised his straddle preflop. I even felt he may have made it 15 to go preflop with QJ.

from what ive played with the villian i know he doesnt part with chips too easily and there was no way he was putting that money in the middle with a hand i beat. I folded face up - and HHC is correct - when it got to me on the flop facing the bet i said i had a made straight. He later told me he did have J 7 - i think he was surprised that I could fold a made straight against him? I just knew that long term calling in this spot against said villian was a bad option - good solid players like him dont do stupid things and putting his money in the middle at that point with anything I beat would be stupid.

Do you never play a hand badly these days Noel?? :rolleyes:

I really hope Ronan comes along and says he had JhTh:D

Hectorjelly

can anyone give a rational explanation as to why they think you should raise this flop?

HeeHawsCantona

Hectorjelly wrote:

can anyone give a rational explanation as to why they think you should raise this flop?

As I mentioned I was the 3rd player in this pot and had called Ronan's bet on the flop. I had actually called the stradle blind and BCB was aware of this also. The flop was very draw heavy with 3 running cards and 2 of them suited. I believe the raise may have been designed in part to get rid of me who was probably drawing to a better hand than BCB.

Flushdraw

HeeHawsCantona wrote:

.I had actually called the stradle blind

Why would you ever do this?

HeeHawsCantona

Flushdraw wrote:

HeeHawsCantona wrote:

.I had actually called the stradle blind

Why would you ever do this?

I am a sick degenerate

Hectorjelly

But if ronan calls the bet, which he will do with all good draws or sets (not counting the times he pushes), you will then be almost forced to call with any decent hand. So you get a massive pot on the turn, half the deck as scare cards and two streets of action. If both of you call the flop raise there will be about 300 in there or so; which is a bad amount to have on the turn with a vunerable hand.

When BCB raises the flop he is representing a certain range, and 67 is at the very bottom of it. If he just calls he makes it much more easy to get action from hands he is ahead of. He can also use his position to play the hand well, this becomes less important the more money is in the pot.

Also, the real danger hands for BCB are JQ and J7 since he is drawing dead to them and they are invisible, a heart coming can actually be helpful since it gets him to a cheaper showdown.

HeeHawsCantona

Agreed he could even have bet more. I think your line is good and I'd probably have played it that way but I think he got away from it loosing the minimum. At that stage the game was playing very loose among 4 of us in a row from seat 2 to seat 5 (BCB) and we had the 3 big stacks.

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

can anyone give a rational explanation as to why they think you should raise this flop?

I would raise the flop and get it in. Because he might have a worse hand (JT, Thxh, T9, whatever). Also it is not much more than 100BB deep given the straddle.

I don't know much about how Ronan Ryan plays holdem but I think even against him I raise/shove.

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

When BCB raises the flop he is representing a certain range, and 67 is at the very bottom of it. If he just calls he makes it much more easy to get action from hands he is ahead of. He can also use his position to play the hand well, this becomes less important the more money is in the pot.

I think this is wrong. Whatever your range is here it should not be 67+.

edit: it should also not be {67+, pure bluffs}

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

I think this is wrong. Whatever your range is here it should not be 67+.

edit: it should also not be {67+, pure bluffs}

the range we actually have isnt the same as the range we are representing. When we raise we make it clear we could have QJ. In fact we do have a made hand, but its much worse. Thats a big problem because we make it difficult to get action from worse hands

A good range in this spot IMO for raising against a tight player is QJ, J7 maybe, top set and any big draw.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

I would raise the flop and get it in. Because he might have a worse hand (JT, Thxh, T9, whatever). Also it is not much more than 100BB deep given the straddle.

I don't know much about how Ronan Ryan plays holdem but I think even against him I raise/shove.

I think raise shoving here is really bad. Were not getting a good price and will often be drawing dead. There isnt much in the pot and we have a lot behind. In this exact hand, we would of put 600 euros into a pot of just over 180 drawing to a 1 card split. And this wasnt the quite the worst that could happen. When you get all in here you are never far ahead. I dont think a tight player turns over JTo or T9 or worse here very often.

robinlacey

i think if i was 150 or even maybe 200bbs deep i would be happy enough raising and getting it in here,but 350 is really too much against someone who you even suspect is a solid player.

calling the flop and playing for a small pot seems to be the best plan of action here,hard not to raise when you flop a vulnerable straight but no matter what its going to be hard to get action from a hand you beat,aside from the pot control aspect of things i like calling the flop because a large part of his range is drawy hands that he might keep bluffing with,and this is your best chance of getting value.

you pass up the chance to protect your hand,but as i've said before i think protecting your hand is very overrated anyway,if you raise and he either calls or raises the turn it isn't going to be much of a laugh.

Goodluck2me

how does this hand play differently if you had J7 then?

RoundTower

why does everyone think this is 350BBs deep? Because of the straddle it is only 140 deep, admittedly it is a limped pot.