But I thought I was value betting!! Two River spots.

LuckyLloyd

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cardshark202

Hand 1: You have to bet the flop here, so many tourney players go nutso on paired boards in raised pots. As played I would fold.
Hand 2: Def call this river given your read. I would just muck this preflop though.

ditpoker

1. i dont much like checking that flop. if u are going to check teh flop i'd play the rest of the hand in check-call mode. you lead the turn, i prefer to lead the flop.
2. i like hand 2 as an example of the importance of position. you're not really beating much on the river. i wouldnt bet the river but i'd probably call the bet. i think at best on this river you're calling to chop the pot. but as cardshark says given your info on him ya gotta call. actually this rant seems to been said much more sucinctly (spelling?) by reggie...

mrflash

Hand one is played poorly imo, good size bet proflop, but you have to come out firing heavy on the flop. You may have been behind from the flop, but you have no way of knowing that now. Another thing about this is that it is an fpp tourney, and you get a lot of guys playing junk and making silly moves like this.
The other thing is this 205 bet, i don't know why you bother, its ok if you do it all the time, but i see a lot of players who only make these silly bets either with huge starting hands only or with junk only and if you keep notes on it, you get a read on a lot of players.

In hand two you checked the turn, i would have fired again. but with what you have said about your opponent and again the fact that its an fpp tournament where you see more silly play, you have to make the call, after all you have top and bottom pairs with a queen kicker. i would not be surprised at anything this guy turns up, a3 would be sick but i'd imagine he has an ace and he might think from your check on the turn that you do not.

Hectorjelly

hand is played well, flop check is good. River the bet is so big I think its a easy fold with no read. In my experience large overbets on the river like that are rarely if ever bluffs

hand 2 call, theres too much in there to fold

pok3rplaya

first hand is villan dependant i think. If people go nuts bluffing paired boards at dis level den b/c de flop is best. I like your line too though vs an unknown. I call de riv cos we played it so weird. Hand 2 i fold preflop (or reraise) cos tp is hard to play OOP. As played i call cos of read but i think u see a flush a lot.

ditpoker

Hectorjelly wrote:

hand is played well, flop check is good. River the bet is so big I think its a easy fold with no read. In my experience large overbets on the river like that are rarely if ever bluffs

why do u like the flop check? if we're going to lead the turn why not the flop? if we check the flop, should we not be checking the turn too?

Hectorjelly

ditpoker wrote:

why do u like the flop check? if we're going to lead the turn why not the flop? if we check the flop, should we not be checking the turn too?

ive had this exact discussion at least 10 times here

on a paired board your chance of getting AA outdrawn is much much less, especially a rainbow board. (the easiest way for someone to outdraw AA is with 2 pair. Now, they cant) On a kk2 board either you are ahead, and the guy has 2 outs, or you are behind, and you have 2 outs. So checking costs very little in terms of getting outdraw. Also, the two kings on the board are going to limit the action somewhat. If you fire the flop turn and river underpairs may well be scared of Ak and fold. You check the flop to disguise your hand, because often a check here to most players means you have a monster or nothing. So then when you bet the turn and river worse hands call. Or you bet the turn and then check call the river. All of which basically makes it easier to win chips when you are ahead (remember, your opponent will often be drawing totally dead), and you are much more likely to get to a showdown cheaply when you are behind. (not always).

I wouldnt always check the flop, I think its important to mix it up and both have benefits. But to say checking is bad is just wrong.

ditpoker

Hectorjelly wrote:

ive had this exact discussion at least 10 times here

on a paired board your chance of getting AA outdrawn is much much less, especially a rainbow board. (the easiest way for someone to outdraw AA is with 2 pair. Now, they cant) On a kk2 board either you are ahead, and the guy has 2 outs, or you are behind, and you have 2 outs. So checking costs very little in terms of getting outdraw. Also, the two kings on the board are going to limit the action somewhat. If you fire the flop turn and river underpairs may well be scared of Ak and fold. You check the flop to disguise your hand, because often a check here to most players means you have a monster or nothing. So then when you bet the turn and river worse hands call. Or you bet the turn and then check call the river. All of which basically makes it easier to win chips when you are ahead (remember, your opponent will often be drawing totally dead), and you are much more likely to get to a showdown cheaply when you are behind. (not always).

I wouldnt always check the flop, I think its important to mix it up and both have benefits. But to say checking is bad is just wrong.

lol, nice one... makes sense. i wont ask youto discuss it an 11th time!

mrflash

Hectorjelly wrote:

ive had this exact discussion at least 10 times here

on a paired board your chance of getting AA outdrawn is much much less, especially a rainbow board. (the easiest way for someone to outdraw AA is with 2 pair. Now, they cant) On a kk2 board either you are ahead, and the guy has 2 outs, or you are behind, and you have 2 outs. So checking costs very little in terms of getting outdraw. Also, the two kings on the board are going to limit the action somewhat. If you fire the flop turn and river underpairs may well be scared of Ak and fold. You check the flop to disguise your hand, because often a check here to most players means you have a monster or nothing. So then when you bet the turn and river worse hands call. Or you bet the turn and then check call the river. All of which basically makes it easier to win chips when you are ahead (remember, your opponent will often be drawing totally dead), and you are much more likely to get to a showdown cheaply when you are behind. (not always).

I wouldnt always check the flop, I think its important to mix it up and both have benefits. But to say checking is bad is just wrong.

In cash games i'd agree with you, but not in a tournament. Also the player in this hand is not that well known so its important not to get into tricky spots with someone you know nothing about.

Hectorjelly

mrwrong wrote:

In cash games i'd agree with you, but not in a tournament. Also the player in this hand is not that well known so its important not to get into tricky spots with someone you know nothing about.

checking the flop doesnt mean you are going to be in a more tricky spot, and there is much less difference between cash games and tournaments than you think. If the bb to stack ratio is the same, its the same game.

LuckyLloyd

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Norwich Fan Rob

why do u lead the river in the 2nd hand?
wp on getting the W$

LuckyLloyd

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cardshark202

Why would checking be better if tourney players are going nutso on paired boards? I say lead planning to get all the money in at some stage, not to try and fold.