Discipline

Kazbah

Hi All,

I'm looking for some discipline tips. This year I have started in a new secondary school. One class group I have are proving seriously challenging. Nothing seems to bother them notes home, detention, reporting them to class teacher/year tutor, extra work, removals of privileges.... They talk continously and I spend more time giving out than actually teaching. They are very weak academically. They do their homework (badly) but their behavour is appalling. They are abusive and aggressive. It is a co-ed school. There are some students in the group who are working well and behaving. As usual it's a few bad apples spoiling the barrel. They are disrupting the progress of everyone and I have yet to find an incentive for them to stop.

Any ideas?

Tom Dunne

Kazbah wrote:

Any ideas?

Humour.

I remember I had a maths teacher who never once lost the head. No matter what kind of disruptive student, he managed to make light of it, and in some cases, make the disruptive student look silly. Not in an embarrassed kind of way, but a friendly banter kind of way.

These type of kids are used to people shouting and punishing them, so this is not the angle to take. Granted, it isn't every teacher who can do this, but it's worth a shot.

I've run into a few in my classes (ok, this is third level, but we still get the odd twit) and I've tried it successfully. Of course, I find subtle threats work better, but I am not so sure it would for you.

I've also tried interaction - getting students up in front of the class to do stuff on the board. Again, in a non-confrontational or punishing way, but more of a friendly and good-humoured way.

spurious

They sound like my sort of kids.

All the strategies you have described to manage them are 'negative' - those kids will be world experts on sanctions - they've probably had about six years of them already. Have you tried a positive note home? Teaching without books? A trip out around the locality? Depending on the subject, you can engage those kids in many positive ways. They are sick to death of school - every class reinforces their own conviction that they are worthless, every piece of homework they struggle with, every word a teacher uses that they do not know the meaning of.

What subject do you have them for?

Kazbah

Maths

I would struggle to write a good nite about any aspect of the ringleaders they are so abusive. They are a OL JC class. We have been teaching without books because none of the them have got the textbook.

I made a deal with one that if I didn't have to correct him for the rest of the week I'd give him a good note on Friday he said he didn't give a sh*t!

They are behind on the syllabus. I don't want the education of the diligent students to suffer by taking too much time out.

spurious

Kazbah wrote:

Maths

I would struggle to write a good nite about any aspect of the ringleaders they are so abusive. They are a OL JC class. We have been teaching without books because none of the them have got the textbook.

I made a deal with one that if I didn't have to correct him for the rest of the week I'd give him a good note on Friday he said he didn't give a sh*t!

They are behind on the syllabus. I don't want the education of the diligent students to suffer by taking too much time out.

OK, they're better able than the ones I would usually deal with - most of mine would very much struggle with ordinary level Maths. Are they under the JCSP scheme?

Have you tried a short cross curricular project with a subject they like?

Out of the blue give one of them a good note for something small - even having his pens in, getting to class on time. Don't bargain with them.

Spyral

take them outside and talk about football

%-age goals by x plater , standard deviation compared to this time last year etc

TheDriver

To be Honest, sounds like its something for higher authorities to deal with (year heads, principals) and even other teachers as motivation methods won;'t work with ring leaders. We usually take the 2-3 right hardcore and split them up into the top classes so that they are intimidated totally and won't say a word coz in fairness they won't learn no matter class they are in and also the ones rest have a chance. No one can quote the eduaction act as they are in classes with teacher doing the right subject. Maybe your colleagues can help or are they not wanting to hear of your woes?

spurious

There are always techniques that can work. There are schools where the entire cohort in a year is made up of children as you describe. Some schools don't take that sort of kid in in the first place and never have to deal with their behaviour.

Contact the CDU in Crumlin or Shannon or the JCSP support teams and ask about different methodologies and techniques to use with children like those you describe. Some of us spend all day teaching kids like that, and there is a lot of expertise out there. They are just as entitled to an education as those who are seen as 'diligent'.

Kazbah

They are not in JCSP. They have ability, but lack any form of application. If they put their minds to it they could do well but they underacheive.

To be honest, after the day I've had with them it's difficult now to think about positive reinforcement. They make remarks consistently about my personal appearance etc. They go out of their way to say what they think will be hurtful and they shout it out to give the rest of the class a giggle. They throw books/stationary. They curse.

All of the classes, I teach have the potential to act like this, many have dysfunctional home lives and are presented with a negative attitude to education outside of school but they have been trained to treat staff with respect and understand the repercussions of their actions within the school.

I will try to give as much praise as possible and incorporate more non-traditional methodologies. At the end of the day, regardless of whether I agree with it or not, I am bound by the DES curriculum. Obviously I would have a very different experience with these students if I had the opportunity to take them for SPHE. I feel I am not fulfilling my professional responsibility if I lose focus too much of the fact that they will be taking the OL paper in June. Some students in the class also have their eye on this and I have a lot of work to do to prepare them.

The staff in my school seem very supportive but they have their own busy timetables. I have consulted with them when possible and they have valuable information about individual students for me. It is encouraged to take class management back to a subject teacher level though.

Unfortunately this maths slot is not banded so there are not enough maths classes for the same year group happening to reassign them temporarily. Though I have found that method to be somewhat effective before. The only other class at that time is a small learning support group.

I don't know anything about short cross curricular projects. I'd be interested to know more but we are under time pressure with this class at the moment.

Hopefully tomorrow will be better!

spurious

Kazbah wrote:

They make remarks consistently about my personal appearance etc. They go out of their way to say what they think will be hurtful and they shout it out to give the rest of the class a giggle. They throw books/stationary. They curse.

You do not have to put up with abuse like that.
I have sent you a PM with some ideas.

kittex

Spurious is spot on. It can be very hard when dealing with these pupils but you have to find something to praise. Humour is also excellent, especially when they do get personal.

One thing I have found works with my lot is greeting them at the door and allowing them in a few at a time.
I do this at the moment with a very aggressive class I have and having that little chat with them at the door, one or two at a time calms them right down. I also tell them very clearly, like they're in primary school, every little step. So, walk in, it down, open your jotter... Very specific steps rather than 'Do your work'. Focus ont he job at hand, the task. So replace 'stop doing that' with 'open page 10 and begin the equations'.

I also use ICT as a carrot - if they behave for 2 weeks, we will go the computer suite and do grammar and language games online.

These kind of classes can be such a drain on your time and energy - and it's hard to predict what will work for them as each group has their own 'personality'. I hope some of the ideas spurious has sent can help things improve for you.
Also, remember, no matter how personal they get, it isn't personal. They'd be saying this to any authority figure. Don't take a word of it on board, I ignore this kind of thing unless it's really OTT and usually they stop bothering after one or two periods. Sounds awful I know but it's what I found worked for me with certain classes.

TheDriver

The whole thing with not putting up with it is grand but if your not permanent, teachers don't want to go runnning to the boss saying they can't control a class etc which makes things tougher.

Kazbah

I spoke to some senior staff members and they were brought in for a talk this morning. They admitted that they were treating me with enormous disrespect. The school is being very supportive as this group have form for gross misconduct. So I'm not dealing with them alone. I am have been advised to use the OHP rather than the board so I don't need to turn my back on them. The ringleaders are possibly going to be plit up and diluted within the year.

spurious

TheDriver wrote:

The whole thing with not putting up with it is grand but if your not permanent, teachers don't want to go runnning to the boss saying they can't control a class etc which makes things tougher.

A good manager will make them feel they can ask for help, so that problems can be addressed early, not wait until it's completely out of hand.

I would rather a new teacher be the sort of person would identify problems early and ask for help if they need it than pretend all is well as chaos abounds.

Nobody expects new teachers to know it all.

Trotter

I've "taught" groups like this before. The only way to deal with the group is to change the members! That kind of group is soul destroying for a teacher and it is pointless for a new teacher to attempt to "help" some groups because their objective is to wreck your day.

I think its now a case of letting the school management deal with the problem and meanwhile try and spot them doing some good things.. if you can.

Its difficult.. and there comes a time when we have to acknowledge young individuals actions as detrimental to the health of a teacher and they need to be excluded.

I really think there needs to be a toughening of discipline measures from the top.. i.e. from the minister. I believe in France they have a system where if you misbehave, you are sent to a boring room, manned by a security guard of sorts. That way, the ones that wish to learn are given the chance.

Only a person who has stood at the top of a group that bad understands what you mean. I've done it too, and I wish you the best of support.. because you need that now more than luck.

gaeilgegrinds

Sometimes there is no way to deal with certain students. I had a students hit & punch me once, nothing was done. He was out of all control.
Talk to the principal, it's not a reflection of your ability at all.
Even taking one student out could make a huge difference to the dimensions of the class!

killbillvol2

There's obviously a group dynamic at work here that's been developing for some time. The core group of troublemakers have probably been in the same class(es) for a long time. They've been honing their skills long before you arrived and are probably seriously lacking self esteem and covering it up with this crap.

They need to be split up because you're not going to win them round (nor is anyone else) in a couple of contact hours every week. The thing to highlight with senior staff is that they'll only get worse if they're left together and will be a nightmare next year.

JasperMcEwan

My heart goes out to you. I've taught Mathematics to difficult students for 20 years. I'm now teaching in a Dublin inner city school. My first few years were a nightmare. The first thing to remember is it's not you it's them.

Is there an overall school disipline system/procedure? I still put students out of class and I don't give a toss what the principal thinks. Some things you must not put up with. I would speak to the principal and deputy and outline your concerns for the class. Tell them you will send out students for specific bad behaviour especially bad language and threats directed at you, violence including throwing things.

Mathematics is particularly difficult as it requires so many explanations, attention of students, turning towards the board. I think the OHP is a good idea. Use it and move troublemakers to front of class. You need to be really well prepared. Lots of work that the weak ones can do and challenging problems for the better ones. I try to incorporate stuff they are interested in such as fantasy football for statistics where they all actually have teams either in groups or individuals. You can then do geometry drawing pitches using scale etc. There's lots of other ideas.

I've also video taped classes playing it back to them afterwards. Many classes of the video camera running tapeless were wonderful.

Don't bargain and don't make threats you won't or can't carry out. I still find that detention works eventually. It's a pain but keeping in students for 7 consecutive days especially Fridays showed them I meant business. I find praise works with many students and I put charts on the wall for attendance, equipment, homework etc. they are like league charts and it gives them all a chance to excel.

I take students out hillwalking, kayaking etc. It gives me a chance to get to know them better outside the classroom and it really helps.

Don't give up. It will get better. Good luck.