Feedback required for my Sunday game in the Red Cow

JP Poker

As the title suggests I'm looking for some feed back for my Sunday game.

After starting off with over 100 runners when this was ran on monthly basis the numbers have begun to dwindle with current numbers anywhere from 30-45 on a weekly basis.

I've had all sorts of suggestions and ideas put forward to me for changes to the game. Here are some of the main ones.

1) The start time is too early. (4pm has been suggested).

2) The structure is too long for a €150 game. (I’ve been told the structure is more like a €300 - €500 game and as a result serious players are earning less on an hourly basis by playing this game).

3) Starting stack is too much. (I’ve been told to 7-8k Stack is more than enough).

4) The buy in is too expensive for a weekly game. (It has been suggested to lower the buy in to €100 in total or €100 plus Reg fee).

5) The Reg fee is too expensive. (Agreed €25 out of €150 is very high compared to casino’s Reg fee, which have other games to generate money to cover costs. That said the Hotel have now giving me the go ahead to run cash games which should bring in more revenue, so this is something that I will be looking at).

6) It is too early to be giving out tickets for the Irish Masters. Everyone that won a €150 ticket for the Irish Masters was told that they could use the ticket as their buy in on the Sunday game if they wanted to but I would have preferred if they kept it for next May. That said since I started doing the tickets I have been in talks with Titan poker regarding an online skin (which should be up and running very soon) so I now see no need to continue giving tickets out until early next year as players will be able to qualify online.

7) Introduce a €10 Scalp to make the game more interesting. (?)

8) Have a token best hand and bounty prize. (?)


All feed back is welcome (even if you haven’t played my Sunday game).

bohsman

Give it a month or so JP, numbers are always bad this time of the year, between summer holidays and now money spent on kids back to school etc it usually doesnt pick up till October. Lowering it to 100 might help aswell. I also didnt like the tickets, 6 months is a long time in poker.

LuckyLloyd

bohsman wrote:

Give it a month or so JP, numbers are always bad this time of the year, between summer holidays and now money spent on kids back to school etc it usually doesnt pick up till October. Lowering it to 100 might help aswell. I also didnt like the tickets, 6 months is a long time in poker.

I think the buy - in is good as is. But QFT on everything else.

Tbh JP, it is a crowded market place. Sunday is a huge online day. There are big live games with great structures on almost every week at this stage (that said, I reckon the structure for the €250 game I was last at was phenomenal). Work comes around fast on Monday morning.


What I think is painfully obvious at present is that this is not a game (with the current format) that would normally apppeal to pub players. The times that I have attended I have noticed players getting visibly bored and frustrated after a couple of hours. They are also lost in the early levels and the standard of play at times does reflect that. For players sitting there and getting the beers in from 2 in the afternoon - they would surely prefer something faster.

Yourself and the better half run a great show IMO. The chips are great; the dealers are great. Unfortunately though (I can only speak for myself) I will choose to stay at home online most Sundays because of how good the tournaments are on a Sunday. And if you regressed the structure from where it is now I would appear even less frequently to this game, or even not at all.

I think you are between a rock and a hard place because your current players encompass a cross section between two very different types of poker market. And players like myself are probably not going to be the ones to provide a viable furture for the game. Good luck with whatever you decide.

ditpoker

what time would you need to start at 100+10/15 freezeout at with a 30min clock and 8k chips. no antes (unless to later levels, not needlessly introduced after 4 levels). 100 euro will get you pub players, 30 min clock will allow enough play that will be on a par with most midweek casino games. 8k chips again will be sufficient if not AMAZING. there are a number of casino players (and boardsters) who play all sorts of buy in levels during the week and take them completely seriously but to have the option of a decent game on sudnay that they can play cards and have a few beers and not take it overly seriously would work i think.

ditpoker

oh and as i said in another post, take tickets out! worry about getting people into your festival much much much closer to the time!

nicnicnic

bohsman wrote:

Give it a month or so JP, numbers are always bad this time of the year, between summer holidays and now money spent on kids back to school etc it usually doesnt pick up till October. Lowering it to 100 might help aswell. I also didnt like the tickets, 6 months is a long time in poker.

I'd go along with this numbers aren't great atm anywhere

The Tourist

I haven't been to this game yet JP, but I have been hearing very good things about it from people I have talked to, particularly about the structure, and I plan to play in it soon.

JP Poker wrote:

1) The start time is too early. (4pm has been suggested).

I reluctantly agree. In theory I would enjoy playing a keenly priced, slow structure game, but in reality I haven't made a single 2pm start yet.

JP Poker wrote:

2) The structure is too long for a €150 game. (I’ve been told the structure is more like a €300 - €500 game and as a result serious players are earning less on an hourly basis by playing this game).
3) Starting stack is too much. (I’ve been told to 7-8k Stack is more than enough).

Having not played it, all I can say is that the few people I've talked to told me the structure was excellent, and that is what appealed to me about the game.

JP Poker wrote:

4) The buy in is too expensive for a weekly game. (It has been suggested to lower the buy in to €100 in total or €100 plus Reg fee).

I would only be making this trip monthly, so 100-150 seems ok to me.

JP Poker wrote:

5) The Reg fee is too expensive. (Agreed €25 out of €150 is very high compared to casino’s Reg fee, which have other games to generate money to cover costs. That said the Hotel have now giving me the go ahead to run cash games which should bring in more revenue, so this is something that I will be looking at).

I expect to pay 10% reg fees in town. However, I understand your position, you run a good & enjoyable game, and I appreciate the free pizza and parking, so whatever.

JP Poker wrote:

6) It is too early to be giving out tickets for the Irish Masters.

I ALWAYS prefer straight cash. Getting tickets for something else can be a major pain if you don't want to/can't play and can't find a buyer. Also, I think there is a small problem in ALL the games I have played in (i.e. not just JPPoker) that when you are paying your money upfront no-one ever tells you that part of the prize fund will be used for tickets to other events. I think it should be made clear in advance.

JP Poker wrote:

7) Introduce a €10 Scalp to make the game more interesting. (?)
8) Have a token best hand and bounty prize. (?)

I prefer straight freezouts. I don't mind a few of these extras, but not too many in the same tourney.

Hope that helps. Finally, I know this is hardly a key issue, but do you show the football during these games! :rolleyes:.

JP Poker

ditpoker wrote:

what time would you need to start at 100+10/15 freezeout at with a 30min clock and 8k chips. no antes (unless to later levels, not needlessly introduced after 4 levels). 100 euro will get you pub players, 30 min clock will allow enough play that will be on a par with most midweek casino games. 8k chips again will be sufficient if not AMAZING. there are a number of casino players (and boardsters) who play all sorts of buy in levels during the week and take them completely seriously but to have the option of a decent game on sudnay that they can play cards and have a few beers and not take it overly seriously would work i think.

Hi Jeff,

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think the real question you’re asking here is what is a respectful time for the game to end at. As Lloyd has pointed out already, work comes around fast on Monday morning.

I think 12am-1am would suit the majority of people (if the game ran a little late fine no problem, but 1am I think is the aim). A start time of 4pm would give 8/9 hours of play.

HeeHawsCantona

JohnPaul,
Last Sunday week when I got eliminated from the monthly I headed upto Cavan for their monthly comp. This was the first time I played it and I was pleasently surprised. Despite Celtic being in Dundalk they had 90plus players and a 15k payout. It was a 100 + 50 rebuy or topup with 30 min blinds and selfdeal until the last 3 tables 10k plus 10k. TBH it was very like a Celtic tournie but its a good compromise between pub players and casino players and they are getting the numbers. Maybe that is what you need monthly for your pub players.
Personally I really like your tournaments and they are impecably ran but its a numbers game and maybe you need to experiment by going back to basics a little.

JP Poker

HeeHawsCantona wrote:

JohnPaul,
Last Sunday week when I got eliminated from the monthly I headed upto Cavan for their monthly comp. This was the first time I played it and I was pleasently surprised. Despite Celtic being in Dundalk they had 90plus players and a 15k payout. It was a 100 + 50 rebuy or topup with 30 min blinds and selfdeal until the last 3 tables 10k plus 10k. TBH it was very like a Celtic tournie but its a good compromise between pub players and casino players and they are getting the numbers. Maybe that is what you need monthly for your pub players.
Personally I really like your tournaments and they are impecably ran but its a numbers game and maybe you need to experiment by going back to basics a little.

Hi Cantona (sorry i don't know your name).

I think my €150 game worked when it was a monthly game (but not on a weekly basis).

What time did that game finish at? As time seems to be the issue for some players on Sunday with me.

JP Poker

The Tourist wrote:

Hope that helps. Finally, I know this is hardly a key issue, but do you show the football during these games! :rolleyes:.

The last time we were there we had the Dublin v Kerry game on in the room. That said we didn't have sky sports in the room. I was told we will have it this Sunday.

Theresalwaysone

Personally I think shortening and speeding up your games is giving away your niche in the market. As Lloyd said it is a crowded market so you having your "reasonable buy in, excellent structure" niche is what is going to be key for the long term success.

Yes, shorten it a bit if needs dictate but not so much as you compromise a)the integrity of the game and b) your name as an organiser of decent structured games.

Personally I think there is a certain "evolution" of a pub player. Home games-Pub Games-Middle of the road games(your game)-casino games( SE500, weekly and monthlies). So if you specifically target pub games for marketing purposes I think you'll see a rise in numbers.
Pub players should make up the majority of your target market. I'd imagine numbers would be down around this time anyway for reasons as Bohsman stated.

The one reason better players don't play pub games is because of the structures. Shortening your structures too drastically would be detrimental to the game and your numbers.


Do what carfax does, shameless whoring of his games in every available crevice. That seems to work.

Meh, my 2cents.

JP Poker

Firstly I’d like to thank everyone who has taken the time to post in this thread. I think Lloyd may have hit the nail on the head!!

This Sunday will be the last week with the 20k starting stack and €150 buy in. Sunday the 16th September we are in the Spawell as the Red Cow is not available due to the GAA Final. On our return we will have a new game / structure which will hopefully appeal to masses.

It will be a €100 & reg fee, 30 min blinds, 7500 chips, later start (probably 4pm).

Moneymaker

I've found tournies with 6000 starting stack provide a good balance of play and time. 7500 sounds good to me though.

The Tourist

JP Poker wrote:

Firstly I’d like to thank everyone who has taken the time to post in this thread. I think Lloyd may have hit the nail on the head!!

This Sunday will be the last week with the 20k starting stack and €150 buy in. Sunday the 16th September we are in the Spawell as the Red Cow is not available due to the GAA Final. On our return we will have a new game / structure which will hopefully appeal to masses.

It will be a €100 & reg fee, 30 min blinds, 7500 chips, later start (probably 4pm).

Have you thought about having three or four different games each month? Ie €100/30mins/8k one week, €150/40mins/10k the next etc...

What you have posted sounds good btw. Good luck with it.

ditpoker

JP Poker wrote:

It will be a €100 & reg fee, 30 min blinds, 7500 chips, later start (probably 4pm).

4pm start, 100+10/15, 30min clock, 7500 chips... i cant think of ANY reason not to play that.

start time, good
buy-in : reg fee, good
clock, good
chips, good
atmosphere at jp games, good
dealer dealt, good (although you still hire carl!!) :mad:

i'm in!! fair play jp!!

The Al Lad

Maybe you should add a sunday roast to the food break !!!

might get a few more runner's

Or you should add pink t-shirts to the prize pool :eek:

PINK T-SHIRTS FTW !!!:p

ditpoker

just as an after thought... every card club in dublin has dealers in white shirt and black tie/bow etc. every dealer dealt game i have player outside of a casino (waterford, jp, vegas nights) its the usual white shirt job. for your first monthly game and heads up thing i dealt all the dealers had a JP-POKER branded tshirt which i think was a nice touch. spend a few bob, pick a colour for all things JP (white and black being too obvious) and make all dealers wear them, maybe even given out JP branded tshirts in same colour as your new titan skin. you'd be surprised how willing dealers/players are to wear poker branded gear. most times i play in dublin u can find a dealer wearing a GreenJokerPoker hoody/thsirt.

may i suggest BRIGHT ORANGE! everyone would notice it! (just a thought)

EDIT: i am somewhat worried that the-al-lad had colourful tshirts on his mind at the same time i did! WEIRD!!!!

JP Poker

ditpoker wrote:

4pm start, 100+10/15, 30min clock, 7500 chips... i cant think of ANY reason not to play that.

i'm in!! fair play jp!!

Hi Jeff,

It's going to have to be a €20 reg fee.

Say you get 50 players @ €15 thats €750

Costs

Hotel & Food €600
7 Dealers €750 (conservative Est)
Total €1350

Net Loss €600

Even @ €20 Reg fee with 50 players the net loss is still €350 and i'm relying Sng's and now Cash game to cover costs.

ITT-Pat

ditpoker wrote:

dealer dealt, good (although you still hire carl!!)

Very well said!! Its about time someoen mentioned it!!!

ditpoker

JP Poker wrote:

Hi Jeff,

It's going to have to be a €20 reg fee.

Say you get 50 players @ €15 thats €750

Costs

Hotel & Food €600
7 Dealers €750 (conservative Est)
Total €1350

Net Loss €600

Even @ €20 Reg fee with 50 players the net loss is still €350 and i'm relying Sng's and now Cash game to cover costs.

lol.. i was angle shooting!! i'd play 100+20 happily!!

if you do consider getting branded tshirts for dealers / tourney winners let me know. might have a sponsor that are considering getting into poker!

and sack carl!!

cooker3

ditpoker wrote:

lol.. i was angle shooting!! i'd play 100+20 happily!!

if you do consider getting branded tshirts for dealers / tourney winners let me know. might have a sponsor that are considering getting into poker!

and sack carl!!

It gets worse, I am back in the country in under 3 weeks and need some money....

Also on the t shirt idea, get 4 star pizza to sponsor again, remember those lovely stickers we had to wear in December

DPablo

JP,

The Red Cow games are building up a reputation for being well run good value tournaments with loads of play. It’s a chance for players like myself to step up a level from the 50+10 pub game and play a deepstack and slow structure. I think the afternoon start time, either 2 or 4pm is a good alternative to the usual evening start time.

Maybe the 100+20 game will attract more pub players to take a shot at a bigger than normal prize pool. But, I think there is still a demand for your deepstack €250 game, maybe keep this as an end of month game?
The cash games should be popular as players get knocked out and want to keep playing.
1/2 PL?

Good luck with the changes.

30something

Hi JP,

I'm split on this one. I like the deep stack but don't like the idea of playing on a Sunday till maybe 3.00am with work commitments. I appreciate that a 2pm start time doesn't suit the general poker community.

Your 20k starting stack was brought in for a month to give players heading to the WSOP a "feel" for what it would be like. That's over now so you don't need a 20k starting stack anymore.
A 10k starting stack is still a "deep-stacked" tourney. I believe 7.5k is enough to get away with being a "deep-stacked" tourney (subject to normal blind levels).
As for price, €100 is the right figure for your normal tourneys, this is your niche now. The reg is fine at €25/€30.
As for the length of the tourney, have you considered introducing a "late running ante" where, say, with 2 tables left to go the running ante is introduced? My guess is the biggest "delay" in your tourneys arises when you get close to the bubble and everyone has plenty of chips.
Then a monthly tourney where you have a €200/€250 entry and add 25% to the starting stack?

I am aware of the difficulties of getting a hotel venue for a Saturday, but if you could crack that (does it have to be a hotel?) I guess you could kill the competition and clean up.

I think it is obvious the punters are happy with you and you team, best of luck adapting to suit them.

menoscemo

I hadn't gone for several weeks because 2pm was a bit too early, generally waking up at about 1pm with a hangover and not being botheres to rush there.
4pm is a good idea ditto lower buy-in. Skysports in the room is a good touch also.
I think this will be more successful, change is always good to get people interested again, people get bored with the same thing every week and that's why numbers drop off.
See you there soon.

JP Poker

DPablo wrote:

JP,

But, I think there is still a demand for your deepstack €250 game, maybe keep this as an end of month game?
.

Hi Paul,

The €250 game will still be on the last Sunday in the month.

P.s. I'm just thinking i forgot to send you that picture. I'll do it today, Sorry

Russh

J.P.
Have just seen this now..I agree what has been said about the time of the year and tbh most of the decent tournies around have been suffering from lack of numbers from what i've seen (the past 8-10 weeks) probably a mixture of Vegas, holidays and GAA....I wouldn't change anything in this tournie and I don't think by weakening the structure and dropping the buy in you will vastly improve the numbers....

In my view I think the most important thing your missing are cash games (game). I know you have run STT's in the past but you can't beat the cash game for some good old 'bad beat therapy'. I think it's a good draw for people to be able to get into a cash game when you get knocked out of a tourney as opposed to going home....

Anyway I sincerely hope you get numbers back up(I've no doubt you will) without tampering too much with the excellant structure you have at the moment.

JP Poker

30something wrote:

Hi JP,

As for the length of the tourney, have you considered introducing a "late running ante"

I am aware of the difficulties of getting a hotel venue for a Saturday, but if you could crack that (does it have to be a hotel?) I guess you could kill the competition and clean up.

I used to introduce a 100 ante on the repeat 1000-2000 Level, so i'm may have a look at doing that again (at for the end of month game).

Regarding a non hotel venue for the game on a saturday, it would be very difficult to get a Pub/ Gaa Club to commit to giving you their venue on the busiest day of the week for the full day. I ran a game on Saturdays before but it was a 8pm finish. That said it is worth looking into again.

Ollieboy

JP Poker wrote:

As the title suggests I'm looking for some feed back for my Sunday game.

After starting off with over 100 runners when this was ran on monthly basis the numbers have begun to dwindle with current numbers anywhere from 30-45 on a weekly basis.

I've had all sorts of suggestions and ideas put forward to me for changes to the game. Here are some of the main ones.

1) The start time is too early. (4pm has been suggested).

2) The structure is too long for a €150 game. (I’ve been told the structure is more like a €300 - €500 game and as a result serious players are earning less on an hourly basis by playing this game).

3) Starting stack is too much. (I’ve been told to 7-8k Stack is more than enough).

4) The buy in is too expensive for a weekly game. (It has been suggested to lower the buy in to €100 in total or €100 plus Reg fee).

5) The Reg fee is too expensive. (Agreed €25 out of €150 is very high compared to casino’s Reg fee, which have other games to generate money to cover costs. That said the Hotel have now giving me the go ahead to run cash games which should bring in more revenue, so this is something that I will be looking at).

6) It is too early to be giving out tickets for the Irish Masters. Everyone that won a €150 ticket for the Irish Masters was told that they could use the ticket as their buy in on the Sunday game if they wanted to but I would have preferred if they kept it for next May. That said since I started doing the tickets I have been in talks with Titan poker regarding an online skin (which should be up and running very soon) so I now see no need to continue giving tickets out until early next year as players will be able to qualify online.

7) Introduce a €10 Scalp to make the game more interesting. (?)

8) Have a token best hand and bounty prize. (?)


All feed back is welcome (even if you haven’t played my Sunday game).

1. Game is a bit early, but its always late starting so around 3pm would be fine, allows people to have dinner with there family etc.

2. Structure is far to long, I've gave my views on this before, but I think a 7k starting stack with all the levels and 30 min blinds is fine. Maybe final table been 40 mins, but once the average bb is 15, I've no problem with the structure. Still hate 20k starting stack...lol

3. Buy-in is fine. I think a 100 would get more players, maybe better advertising is required to indice the average player, Nicky had a great run of players at this monthly game with Vegas nights.

4. Reg is always to expensive, but given the value and standard of your game, I dont really have a problem of it, but I rather a 10% reg fee.

5. far to early for tickets and I hate the idea of tickets in general unless its a satalite event. If people win, give them the option of buying a ticket.

In general its a excellant event, just doesn't suit me to play it that often on a personal note and I tend to play very little live now anyway.

Ollie

Lplated

Hi JP,
I've played in your Sunday game twice so far, imo it is the best game in Dublin at present.

Your tournie is unique because of its deep stack nature, 20K starting 40 min clock allows plenty play, you can make a mistake or two and stay in the game, you can survive a suck out or two and still have a shot at the money.

If you reduce to 7/8k in chips for €100 + 20 you will lose your uniqueness - if you look at the tournament schedules posted in this forum, you will end up roughly comparable to CHL Monday (50 +5, 1r/t, 4k + 4k, i.e. 8k for 100 + 5), Fitz Monday (75 +5, 6.5k), CHL tue (70+5 DC, 8k total), SE wed etc....

For my 2 pence, if that happens, i.e. if you become 'just' the same as some of the other good value deep stacks, then the only thing to distinguish you is that you are on a Sunday afternoon, I don't think thats enough to increase numbers.

Why not go somewhere in between, i.e. 12k chips or 15k chips for somewhere between 100 and 150€?

I appreciate the Sunday 'problem', as mentioned above, even though I thought it was the best tournament available in Dublin, I still only got there twice. I will try harder. I will try harder.

YOu run a great tournament with a good team of people in an easy to get to location - don't change too much.

BTW, I agree with those who said that summer is a bad time generally, with holidays, matches etc... If you could hold off another month or so maybe numbers would pick up again. Also think that running cash games and/or satellites at the same time could lead to an increase in numbers.

ozpoker

Hey JP -

Count me as a big fan of the status quo. I really like the deepstack, slow structure. I wouldn't mind if you scale the starting stack back to 10K, but I think you're losing the unique aspect of your tourney if you go much beyond that.

I'm also a fan of the 2:00 start time. It allows you to have your good structure and still finish the tourney before day break on Monday. To your detractors I say "Get real!" Most major tourneys start 12:00 noon, I don't think making it to the Red Cow by 2:00 is that much of a hardship (and I'm no early bird, beleive me).

My overall concern is that you will overcompensate for what you perceive are problems with your tourney that are likely just due to seasonality. I haven't been to the tourney in 3 weeks because I've been on holiday; I'm sure many are in the same boat.

Thanks for all that you do to make this the premier tourney of the week.

-Oz-

cuterob

i'm itching to play the 20k structure..just living down the country is hard for me to get up there

would varying the games each week lower numbers? like 8k 1st week.. 20k 2nd week etc?

i'd say introducing cash games would get numbers up and as been said it is a slow time for poker.. i've heard great things about the structure you have at the moment btw

my 2 pence