If ever there was a time to laydown Kings pre flop (25nl hand)

Slash/ED

Just sat down at the table, this is my first hand, haven't played with any of these before that I can remember so no reads whatsoever.

#Game No : 6302359346
***** Hand History for Game 6302359346 *****
$25 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, September 05, 22:09:25 ET 2007
Table Table 127300 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 2: mener111 ( $28.83 USD )
Seat 3: brueslymuesh ( $36.61 USD )
Seat 4: f4celess ( $27.20 USD )
Seat 5: Ritterboerse ( $26.40 USD )
Seat 1: Hero ( $25 USD )
Seat 6: SyberCrow ( $25.48 USD )
SyberCrow posts small blind [$0.10 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$0.25 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ks Kc ]
mener111 calls [$0.25 USD]
brueslymuesh folds
f4celess folds
Ritterboerse raises [$1.25 USD]
SyberCrow folds
Hero raises [$4.25 USD]
mener111 is all-In [$28.58 USD]
Ritterboerse is all-In [$25.15 USD]
Hero ??

Captain Tom

nope.

it's $25nl so there's a good chance one or both of them are really bad, and you're only 100bb's deep. ship it in.

RoadSweeper

at this level i'd probally call without a specific read the either villian was a nit.

kryogen

if there was ever a time to fold KK why is this it exactly??? i call in this spot all day every day while singing "lovely day"!! you have no reads, no reason to think a guy has AA, well you may think it but you have no logical reason and you cant be sure enough to ever fold here... actually now the novelty has wrn off myhead is starting to hurt that you think its a fold! lol

dont fold..... call.all day...and feel good, regardless of the outcome

Slash/ED

Well what are we putting them on here?

What would people fold? Making it a little trickier, what if you've queens? Standard lay down I'd have thought, is the difference that huge? For what it's worth the button insta called the shove.

kryogen

its basically the limits that come into play big time here....they are probably not very good, i have found in the past that people are willing to go broke with AT+ and with the odd muppet sometimes worse, yes i call QQ here too... its just at this level and this stack size that its insta call though

you are 100bb's deep with the second best starting hand in the deck playing players who are probably of weak standard....your ahead far too many times to fold, same with QQ......you cant put a guy on AA here, you just cant, how do you justify it to yourself???? how can you, based on what you know about the players and their betting patterns and their history, which is nothing! decide that the guy has the one hand in the deck that has you beat?? in this situation you just cant im afraid! im assuming he had AA and thats unfortunate, but call here everytime and you win in the long run

Slash/ED

There's no doubt the standard is weak as hell, but I've seen little to no 3-betting in 25nl so far on Party. I've seen no 4-betting weak at all, that I've managed to see the cards with anyway. Their ranges for raises like this are alot narrower than you think, I reckon. After the flop they go crazy with weird card combinations, but they aren't shoving or calling the shove with something like ace-ten+, definitely not. And they certainly aren't capable of shoving on a bluff.

As a footnote, either player wold certainly call me with absolute garbage like a medium ace, but I've yet to see them raise with it.

kryogen

you said this was your first hand, make up your mind, you either know the guys or you dont

NeoSlicerZ

Ship.

Had a session today where I was fairly sure a 90 vpip fish had AA, I had KK. Still shipped it.

Slash/ED

First hand on that table, I was talking of 25nl in general on party. Pre flop it is not that wild.

Hectorjelly

Id call but I would be fairly unhappy

Hawk Eye

Heavy action but I'd still call. As you've said it's your first hand so you don't know what the play has been like. Maybe they've lost a couple of buyins to the guy you have replaced and are somewhat tilted.
Include JJ+,AK in their ranges and you have to stack off here.

cooker3

There is only 1 time to fold kings pf and it's here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBtjQPQy5NU

phantom_lord

i think i picked up a tell on her.

looserock

If you'r playing the game for fun, lay them down, you can get a great feeling from doing a great laydown and you will see the winners cards as he's allin.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

30something

Two important matters need to be mentioned here to (hopefully) assist the OP:

1. BANKROLL:

There are lots of posts on this. If you have a b/r greater then say 15 times the buyin (which is about recommended) to play at this level then you should have at least $375 in your Poker Account. In that case (see point 2) calling here is easy. If on the other hand (and to be extreme) you only have a total of $25 in your account and your on-line poker future depends on not loosing the entire, then you are going to play so tight with MUBS (Monsters Under The Bed Syndrome) that you can't make good decisions and properly progress.

2. POT ODDS:

I believe that when you are holding kings, 1 out of every 27 times a player at your table will (statistically) hold Aces. Put another way, when you hold Kings, 26 times out of 27 no-one will hold Aces. If you "groundhog day" this situation 27 times then once you will be behind but the rest you will be ahead and massive favourite to win. Armed with this knowledge AND not having MUBS, calling in this spot is MASSIVELY PROFITABLE even though you may lose the odd one.

BTW, of the 1 in 27 times you run your Kings into Aces you still actually have a 20% chance of winning

looserock

30something wrote:

BTW, of the 1 in 27 times you run your Kings into Aces you still actually have a 20% chance of winning

Is this not cancelled out by the fact that the same applies for when the other guy has QQ

*Counterfeit*

I saw a guy lay down kings pre-flop in a cash game in the Jackpot (!!!!)a few weeks ago. He had made it €10 utg+1, this was followed by an all in the mid for €33 quid and an all in on the button for €100 odd quid. He didn't think for too long and put it down (and showed). Button had the aces and they held. I was extremely impressed, don't think I could have made that fold.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Theresalwaysone

*Counterfeit* wrote:

I saw a guy lay down kings pre-flop in a cash game in the Jackpot (!!!!)a few weeks ago. He had made it €10 utg+1, this was followed by an all in the mid for €33 quid and an all in on the button for €100 odd quid. He didn't think for too long and put it down (and showed). Button had the aces and they held. I was extremely impressed, don't think I could have made that fold.

And I got absolutely torn apart for it. Have seen the error of my ways but it was very player and read dependant.

30something wrote:

2. POT ODDS:
I believe that when you are holding kings, 1 out of every 27 times a player at your table will (statistically) hold Aces. Put another way, when you hold Kings, 26 times out of 27 no-one will hold Aces. If you "groundhog day" this situation 27 times then once you will be behind but the rest you will be ahead and massive favourite to win. Armed with this knowledge AND not having MUBS, calling in this spot is MASSIVELY PROFITABLE even though you may lose the odd one.

BTW, of the 1 in 27 times you run your Kings into Aces you still actually have a 20% chance of winning

I don't think this makes any sense. The betting action is there to give you information. Giving this betting action the chances of someone having aces fall drastically. If everyone went all in blind every hand and you were given kings, you would be behind 1 in 27. If given this betting action I think you will still be favourite..... especially at this level BUT you will not be ahead 26times out of 27. Far less I would imagine.

Edit to say: Your calling here and saying "I knew you hand aces", at this level, with this hand unless you have a very strong read....very strong.

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote:

That's not a good fold at all.

*sigh*

Macspower

In a properly bankrolled game 100bb's deep I'm geting it in here everytime but am prepared to see AA and still have a chance to hit if behind

Lazare

cooker3 wrote:

There is only 1 time to fold kings pf and it's here!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBtjQPQy5NU

LMAO.
What a stupid bitch. How did he not see her tell her husband she had Aces? And all that whooping and hollering when she chops a pot and knocks a guy out. Fcuk me I hate American players.

Scouser in Dub

Like I knew when 5 bet all in last night that my kings were up against aces and I still got it in

I can't ever see me folding them preflop despite those times when I think I am behind

*Counterfeit*

LuckyLloyd wrote:

That's not a good fold at all.

Ehhhhh...........?!?!?!?!!!!

mrflash

ship them, you cannot lay down here, if you are folding here, where does it stop, when do you stand your ground?

opr

*Counterfeit* wrote:

Ehhhhh...........?!?!?!?!!!!

Just because you would have been behind when the cards are turned up does not mean you should have folded.

Edit : Think about it this way. A guy preflop raises in early position and you look down on KK and just open fold everyone else folds and the guy shows AA do you think that folding KK was correct ?

Opr

CaptainNemo

30something wrote:

2. POT ODDS:

I believe that when you are holding kings, 1 out of every 27 times a player at your table will (statistically) hold Aces. Put another way, when you hold Kings, 26 times out of 27 no-one will hold Aces. If you "groundhog day" this situation 27 times then once you will be behind but the rest you will be ahead and massive favourite to win. Armed with this knowledge AND not having MUBS, calling in this spot is MASSIVELY PROFITABLE even though you may lose the odd one.

BTW, of the 1 in 27 times you run your Kings into Aces you still actually have a 20% chance of winning

This calculation doesn't make much sense to me. We're not dealing with a situation where you are up against 9 other random hands with no other information, but situations where another player has communicated extreme strength preflop in such a way that their range is extremely small (AK, QQ+, or with some players, only KK+)

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Theresalwaysone

CaptainNemo wrote:

This calculation doesn't make much sense to me. We're not dealing with a situation where you are up against 9 other random hands with no other information, but situations where another player has communicated extreme strength preflop in such a way that their range is extremely small (AK, QQ+, or with some players, only KK+)

What are you? A parrot?:p An articulate parrot!

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote:

It's a bad fold. Folding KK pre - flop for less than 100BBs will generally be a bad fold. Don't fold. It seems like a good fold this time because he had Aces. But most of the time he won't have them. So it's a bad fold.

Get it?

But most of the time against this player, given this action, he will have it? So it is a standard fold?

CaptainNemo

Theresalwaysone wrote:

What are you? A parrot?:p An articulate parrot!

Ahaha...sorry for the repeat...just scrolled back up and saw you said exactly this...:rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No!! Are you telling me he never does this with QQ or AKs?? Because I have yet to meet a live player who wouldn't treat QQ+ and AKs the same for that amount of money. The last time I played with you you seemed to be making really awful folds and calls pre - flop. And laying down KK here is just wrong.

Yes, I'm telling you this player would never do this with AKs, With queens I am not too sure but he was far to relaxed and I had a tight image also so I was right to assume he had the nuts. I used all the info available to come to the right conclusion THIS TIME.

And re: last time, Yes, I know. Its called having a bit of a laugh and a gamble in a game I enjoy and on a night when I wasn't taking anything too seriously. You should try it...having fun at the poker table and all that.

CaptainNemo

If it's 100BBs I'll never fold KK. The question becomes more interesting when you get to 200-300BBs and higher.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote:

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. Losing isn't fun.

Well theres our difference. End of.

boba_fett3099

Im pretty sure folding Kings PF for 50bbs is NEVER correct!

Goodluck2me

what about here?

Both playing 200BB+
i make it 5BB from the button after 3 limpers, CO makes it 17BB, folded to me i make it 50BB she makes it 100BB whilst saying "your Ace king is good". This was the first 4bet on the tabel in 3 hours.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

very different

yeah in vegas first night sitting with 650 woman had 600. i made it 15 she made it 50, i made it 150 and she made it 250 with all the speech etc, i folded.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Mellor

did she show?

Goodluck2me

no she slid them in really slowly, saying i cant believe you folded told me she had QQ, which i was delighted at, as if she had AA im sure she couldnt admit it. she also left the table for abotu 10 mins talking, i reckon steaming! (btw i showed my hand) i prob shouldnt but i hoped she would too.

Mellor

Sound like you were right. She should of never showed the AA. And showed the QQ. Her story is full of holes

Goodluck2me

Mellor wrote:

Her story is full of holes

yeah women are lying b&stards.

Mellor

b1tches joe, lying b1tches

mormank

i would call here with the kings, treble up, then leave the table. sit into another table and hope i should be so lucky again in the very first hand!!!