Getting good advice on buying the right road bike

infinity&beyond

Hi, I currently have an entry level road bike (bought as a commuter bike). At the start of this year I decided to do the Wicklow 200 using my current road bike, trained at the weekend doing 80-150km spins. I'm now upgrading my bike.

My needs: will be doing c.3,000km p.a. around Wicklow mountains, may look into club racing in the future, a bike that will last me 5 -10 years. Budget E2000-2500 (is that enough?).

I'm pretty sure I don't want to buy on-line as I'm short on bike knowledge and would probably buy something unsuitable. At the same time I don't want to pay over the odds. I'm also wary of being sold a bike that a shop has excess inventory in. What shops in the Dublin area can be trusted to sell me the right bike? How do the smaller shops (The Bike Rack, Cabinteely or Joe Daly's, Dundrum for example) compare to Cycleways, Superstore, Cyclogical for advice, range and price?

What level and type of pre-sales service should I expect? I've read that a shop should measure me before even suggesting a frame and that a shop that only offers a Shimano groupset probably isn't the right place to do business. Is this true? Or am I expecting too much for my budget?

Other questions:
Is a compact chainset standard now or should a triple be considered?
Is a full carbon frame the only way forward or is there still a case for alu?
I've no idea what type and how much to spend on wheels?

A long post and lots of questions. Thanks for any help offered.

uberwolf

wow. You're throwing a lot of money at the problem for 3,000km touring miles p.a. I won't try and dissuade you though, I'm firmly of the opinion that you'll appreciate every extra cent you pour into it.

and if you do start on the club scene you may as well have something ready for the task.

There are two angles to take on this.

Would you mind buying a top line frame and slowly improving the components as they wear out?

OR

Reducing the quality of the frame somewhat and getting better quality components?

Not to say you'd notice any immediate difference in performance with, say, ultegra rather than dura-ace.

I would think get the frame, as you'll have it for 10 years. The rest will require replacing over the years irrespective.

Chainset - you'll get slagged showing up at club races with a triple chainset. (although winning is a sure fire way of shutting them up!)
In saying that on an average of 60km a week (2hrs), you will encounter gradients in the wicklow mountains that the third ring would be heaven sent. As with the rest these things can be upgraded as time moves on. 52-42-?? on the front, with 23/25 down to 12 on the back.

As for wheels, in all likelihood you'll be buying a full bike off the peg, rather than building it? The wheels will be part of the show.

edit: I don't think you'd be starting badly to look at the sales on this currents seasons bikes.

Taking a rough exchange rate there's a lot of bikes in Focus Izalco Team

Hungrycol

I quite like the Specialized Tarmac and Cannondale Six13 in this price range. €2000 to 2500 is plenty but do your homework and posts like this are a good start. Know what you want, test ride a load of bikes and don't feel pressured into buying.

I feel that the suburan bike shops like the Bike Rack, Penny Farthing sell to suburban families and their bread and butter sales would be in the kiddies bikes and mountain bikes. I'm not knocking it but that's just business (edit: my opinion only). If you want specialist lightweight advice and knowledge go into town and into the other bike shops you listed. Cycleways are mainly Specialized and Cannondale (check out their website www.cycleways.com) and Cyclelogical are mainly Ridley, Trek, Colnago and a few more that don't come to mind (crap website though). As long as they know how much you have to spend you'll get their full attention and advice but if you go into the shop feeling the pressure in the tyres they probably won't be as attentive, IYKWIM! Don't let them talk you into a sale. It's a lot of money and (although they'll make you think it's not) so think about it. Remember you'll also need cycling clothing and it's coming into the winter so consider this also. Sure heck see what clothing they throw in if you come back to them for a second look, they know you're serious and perhaps it could clinch the sale for them. Also worth considering is last years bikes, still spank-me new but just stock they haven't sold, they'll be on sale to make way for their new 2008 range so you could get a good deal if you want think again about that road. A good bike shop won't let you out the door before seeing you on the bike and adjusting it for your perfect fit, reach, height, etc.

I'd personally go for the standard chainset, 39-52 teeth on the front instead of a compact or triple. I did the W200 for the first time this year on a 39-52 front and 12-26 rear and was fine for me. How did you get on? If you like a bike that has, say, a double chainset and you want a triple, don't be afraid to ask "does this come with a triple"?

If you want a bike to last you 5-10 years perhaps a carbon might not be the best solution. Just think if you crash it's as good as finished. Carbon can get internal hairline fractures and can be dangerous to ride after a big crash. Have you considered Titanium? The Cannondale Six13 is half carbon and half alu. Don't worry about the wheels and don't be wowed by components. The quality of the frame is the important thing here, components can be upgraded over time.

Don't rush into anything and see what bikes tickle your fancy.

(Sorry I tent to rattle on...)

blorg

I went from aluminum to an entry-level carbon bike (Trek 5000) and christ the carbon is comfortable, definately go carbon with that price range.

Regarding the triple, it really depends on your level, the terrain, and what you are comfortable with. A triple only adds minimal weight and gives you more options with steep grades.

I have a triple myself and I passed a hell of a lot of serious-looking people with doubles on Wicklow 200 climbs, so don't be swayed by the image, etc. If you are specifically planning on a lot of hills, I would get the triple.

A compact is also an option but will give you a bit less on both the high and low ends.

Joe Daly's is a good shop, certainly. Best thing to do would be to take a few bikes out for test rides from a few different shops to see how you get on. I wouldn't be worried about a shop that only does bikes with a Shimano drive train, Shimano is pretty dominant until you get into the very high end.

daymobrew

Rob who owns Wheelworx Bikes in Clondalkin is quite passionate about bikes and triathlons.
The other day I said could never get used to the Aerobar drink system and he quickly commented that my bike setup was off.

So, he'll help you choose a bike and set it up for you.

E@gle.

€2500 should get you a carbon frame and for that money you would probaly be better off going for the full Ultegra groupset,
my frame is still on discount in cyclesuperstore

http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=37&idproduct=12729

infinity&beyond

Thanks for all the replies, and sorry for my delay in acknowledging them (and don't worry at all about "rattling on"....it's great to hear views of people who've a LOT more cycling knowledge than me).

The update on my search so far is:
Cyclogical....attentive, informative, by far my most successful visit. The guy there suggested a custom build - a merlin c110 carbon frame, which is on sale down from E2700 to E1200 (really?!!), ultegra groupset, mavic askium wheels. This comes in at E2250 or so. The discount on the frame is lulling me in, but was it ever really that price? I can't find any online reviews on the c110 and merlin in general. Anyone out there any opinions....pros/cons?

I called into the cycle superstore today and though it wasn't that busy not one staff approached me in the 20 mins I was there (not the first time that's happened in that shop). Generally discounts not overwhelming (c.10%), and I think all in my price range were 105 groupsets / askium wheels (so slightly less attractive than merlin above?).

I'm reluctant to go into Cycleways as I've had a couple of negative sales experiences in the past (is it me or are they very arrogant???). But I suppose they do the two bikes mentioned by Hungrycol, the Cannondale Six13 and the Specialized Tarmac. Again they both come with 105s / askiums in my price range. The Six13 carbon/alu mix certainly is something to consider.

E@gle, the Look 565 frame (E1700) would come in above my max price. Thanks though. Uberwolf, similar price issue with the Focus Izalco. Both look real nice.

On the gear ratios, I'm currently on a triple 52/39/30 front, 23/12 rear and I needed every last gear for the W200. I know my current bike's heavy, so I should be able to get away with less low gears on a lighter carbon bike, right? A triple might just be the safer option for me......

Hungrycol you mentioned that I should test ride as many bikes as I can. What factors am I scoring them on? Handling, shock absorbsion? Will the difference between bikes be obvious to me? Do shops have no problem giving customers a test ride on their bikes? What about the merlin.....it would have to be specially built up for me....surely I can't expect them to set it up without a guarantee I'm going to buy it?

Thanks again for the help.

Membrane

infinity&beyond wrote:

I called into the cycle superstore today and though it wasn't that busy not one staff approached me in the 20 mins I was there (not the first time that's happened in that shop).

Horses for courses I suppose, I prefer to be left alone to browse, as long as staff are around if and when I need them.

Generally discounts not overwhelming (c.10%), and I think all in my price range were 105 groupsets / askium wheels (so slightly less attractive than merlin above?).

If your current bike is really an entry level road bike, then a 105 equipped bike is a significant upgrade. IMO groupsets like Ultegra, Dura Ace and Record are more about elitism than about performance. 105 is good quality hardware, it won't make a bit of real world difference compared to the more expensive groupsets.

On the gear ratios, I'm currently on a triple 52/39/30 front, 23/12 rear and I needed every last gear for the W200. I know my current bike's heavy, so I should be able to get away with less low gears on a lighter carbon bike, right?

You will likely feel the difference on a significantly lighter bike (>2KG difference), but if you do the sums it actually makes little difference with regard to your climbing ability. A 2Kg lighter bike is likely to be less than 2% lighter overall. Don't forget, often the lighter the bikes get, the more uncomfortable and fragile they become.

Standard doubles are IMO simply not suitable for the tougher climbs in the Wicklow Mountains, even when you are Marco Pantani. You may (just) be able to get up them, but you'll sour up your leg muscles no end by having to stand. A compact double comes closer, but the only sensible choice is a triple. (actually there are a few bits in the Wicklow Mountains that are too much even for a road triple)

Given your W200 experience you need a triple. Note that there can be a lot of sniffyness amongst roadies with regard to triples. The best way to shut them up is to match them on fitness, and then beat them with the better efficiency of your triple bike.

Consider what you'd rather impress future club partners with, your spending prowess, or your riding prowess. If the first, go for Ultegra, Dura Ace or Record, if the latter buy a 105 triple and match the club racers' fitness before you join them.

Uberwolf, similar price issue with the Focus Izalco.

If you are now considering buying online, then I'd suggest considering the Focus Cayo Triple, a carbon frame 105 triple equipped bike that comes in a good bit below your spending limit (£864). Great quality on the whole (the saddle is poor and should be replaced) and great value.

Quigs Snr

Merlin are more known for their titanium frames, so the carbon will be an off the peg frame from Taiwan so, no it was probably never that price, and it was you were paying an extra grand for the Merlin decals (nearly all are taiwan off the peg frames, most carbons are made in about 4 factories in taiwan using just different molds e.g. Lapierre, Scott, Giant etc.. so don't knock it !) In general, the Merlin would not do it for me and although I do like Mavic wheels (I have Kysrium SL and Cosmic Carbones), those Askiums are heavy low end wheels, and to be honest I think its a shame putting them on a carbon/ultegra bike unless its for training. I do feel a difference with light/good wheels, so if you are investing, wheels are a good place to do it.

There is so little between Ultegra and 105 these days, I would go for Ultegra. Tell you what, why not give Planet X a call ? I got my wheels there, great customer service, will always pick up the phone or answer an email, and their frames are rather nice, saw lots of them in this years National champs, so plenty of folks agree with me.

I don't think you will get better value that the Special offer at the moment.

http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/triathlon/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=335

999 Sterling (if one of the standard size options fits you) for a full carbon with Ultegra plus they assemble and ship it to you (shipping £20 extra)! You even have an option of a compact chainset which at your level might be worthwhile, people turn their noses up at them but I rode all last year on one in events such as the W200 and the Etape and left plenty of people for dead on the hills ! I even did a race or two and you would really want to be racing at 60kph plus down a hill to be spinning out on the compact also). Also the planetX bars, stems etc... are excellent, very light and tough, comparable to the ritchey and Deda stuff, couple of lads in my club use them on top of the range builds and rode them in the RAS. I would have no trouble putting them on my race bike and I am pretty fussy with what goes onto that.

That will work out about 1500 euro, you can take your remaining 1000, and you will literally have nothing you need to upgrade on the bike, the frame is good enough for pro's to ride on, have sat on one in the flesh, they are very well finished and light, likewise the groupset (some of the Irish team rode Ultegra in the RAS). The wheels are decent, I would keep them for winter training and maybe take your remaining 1000 euro and buy some nice light pedals and wheels, possibly some Ksyrium ES, Fulcrum 1's or Campy Eurus (I am hearing great things about the Eurus).


http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/triathlon/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=335

infinity&beyond

Again I really appreciate all this advice. Especially the feedback on the Merlin. Does the fact that it has Titanium dropouts make it that bit more special or no? Or the fact that it's guaranteed for life?

On the 105/Ultegra debate, seems like 105 plenty good for me, but then for 80 difference in list prices, why not upgrade? But what's clear is that 105 isn't a deal breaker.

On the compact / triple debate, I think I'll go for the triple, but do all bikes have triple as an option? (e.g....not sure about the Planet X mentioned below). So if not, a front 50/34 and rear 11/25 compact would cover the ground, right? Is that a smart option?

Both the Planet X compact and the Focus Cayo triple seem very attractively priced. However, I'm a little concerned (given my inexperience) that in buying online I'll end up getting incorrect frame size, stem/crank lengths etc. I can send them my measurements, but will that guarantee me a good fit? If it does then I'd be crazy not to buy online for those prices.

Membrane wrote:

You will likely feel the difference on a significantly lighter bike (>2KG difference), but if you do the sums it actually makes little difference with regard to your climbing ability. A 2Kg lighter bike is likely to be less than 2% lighter overall.

Can you explain this to me Membrane? Does the "overall" you're talking about relate to me being on it....hence 2kg/100kg (me + bike) = 2%? I guess I never thought about it like that. It means that I should lose weight - cheaper and healthier

E@gle.

There's not much in the difference price wise on jump from 105-ultegra, compared to ultegra- Dura ace,

i went from Tiagra groupset to ultegra and noticed a hugh difference, you might not notice the difference from 105 and ultegra

Hope this makes sense

ThOnda

infinity&beyond wrote:

Can you explain this to me Membrane? Does the "overall" you're talking about relate to me being on it....hence 2kg/100kg (me + bike) = 2%? I guess I never thought about it like that. It means that I should lose weight - cheaper and healthier

Holly true. some people are willing to spend a lot of money to save 2 kilos instead of improving their stamina and loosing those 2 kilos almost for free. I know that from MTB where kilos are more important than on a road.
If you go in Campagnolo way, they move set every year down, so you will have guaranteed that your "lower set" was "top racing set" few years ago. However 105 is more than good for amateur use, according to me serviceman. His brother rides about 20.000 km a year on 105 without having a problem. And he is also having triple for keeping his heartbeat in mountains (for better training, better health and for more joy).

E@gle.

ThOnda wrote:

Holly true. some people are willing to spend a lot of money to save 2 kilos instead of improving their stamina and loosing those 2 kilos almost for free. I know that from MTB where kilos are more important than on a road.
If you go in Campagnolo way, they move set every year down, so you will have guaranteed that your "lower set" was "top racing set" few years ago. However 105 is more than good for amateur use, according to me serviceman. His brother rides about 20.000 km a year on 105 without having a problem. And he is also having triple for keeping his heartbeat in mountains (for better training, better health and for more joy).

I know a guy who has money to burn, He recently bought a new road bike a Ridely excaliber, The one with Dura-ace, He goes out on it about once every two weeks, has the bike since july and is now purchasing a set of zipp carbon wheels and a Ridley Noah frame, and this guy is afraid to go fast down hills,

This guy weighs about 16 stone, So its all about the rider not the bike that makes the difference, So first thing get yourself in shape then sort out your bike

daymobrew

infinity&beyond wrote:

I'm reluctant to go into Cycleways as I've had a couple of negative sales experiences in the past (is it me or are they very arrogant???).

For Specialized you could try Stagg Cycles, Main Street, Lucan.
I rang them last week about a Specialized Sirrus. Same price as Cycleways though they might have to order it in (would get it the next day).
They are not open Sundays.

Hungrycol

infinity&beyond wrote:

Hungrycol you mentioned that I should test ride as many bikes as I can. What factors am I scoring them on? Handling, shock absorbsion? Will the difference between bikes be obvious to me? Do shops have no problem giving customers a test ride on their bikes? What about the merlin.....it would have to be specially built up for me....surely I can't expect them to set it up without a guarantee I'm going to buy it?

I know that cycleways will let you let you test ride a bike but you have to leave your authorised credit card so you don't scarper. The only problem is that they may not have your size in the bike you're interested in to test ride.

Factors: Are all personal but I think you'll know after cycling a few. First and foremost I think is comfort followed by handling and basically how the bike feels under you. After test riding some you'll know which ones you like. For obvious reasons you can't do this with custom builds and anyway I think these bike builds are more suited to experienced cyclists who know what frame geometries and other specific settings on, I dunno, handlebar widths etc. they want.

I don't know much on the Merlin but they will want you to pay in full for the bike before they build it up for you.

Remember don't get too hung up on components like the 105 v's Ultegra and don't let it be a deciding factor. These can be upgraded over time and 105 works perfectly well. What is important the quality of frame and remember you're going to have it for a long time (5-10 years) so you want it strong and durable. Carbon may be as light as a gnats pube but I'm not convinced about proven durability over a long time and nowadays 5-10 years is a long time in a bikes life. Having said this carbon weaving is getting better and stronger every year and before you know they'll be fewer alu bikes like there are fewer Reynolds or Columbus tubing frames around now.

Have another serious look at the Six13. It gets fantastic reviews (Cycling Plus) and is supposed to be very lively on climbs and equally responsive in sprints. They also look lovely (edit: except the Liquigas)! Jeeze I want one now...

blorg

infinity&beyond wrote:

On the gear ratios, I'm currently on a triple 52/39/30 front, 23/12 rear and I needed every last gear for the W200. I know my current bike's heavy, so I should be able to get away with less low gears on a lighter carbon bike, right? A triple might just be the safer option for me...

Given what you say I would definately go for the triple. The low gear on the compact you mention (34/25) is however not very much harder than your current 30/23 - you can calculate these things using Sheldon Brown's gear calculator. Also note you can go to 27 on the back.

infinity&beyond

Hungrycol wrote:

Have another serious look at the Six13. It gets fantastic reviews (Cycling Plus) and is supposed to be very lively on climbs and equally responsive in sprints. They also look lovely (edit: except the Liquigas)! Jeeze I want one now...

It certainly gets good reviews, so I'll defo give it a test. How long do shops normally give you for testing? Are we talking a run around the block, a day, couple of days? [Sorry, I've just no idea what to expect].

Seems an expensive bike though relative to the Planet X (over E1000 in the difference). Do Cycleways offer decent discounts generally (particularly at this time of year......the '08 bike already shipping on Evans Cycles)?

Quigs Snr

Most shops won't let you out of the carpark with a bike unless they know you well from the racing scene perhaps, and even at that its rare.

Cannondale Six13 vs the Planet X ? The Cannondale is a fine bike, they will give you loads of guff about race proven Geometry, heritage blah blah, but at the end of the day, both are fine race bikes plus the planet X is also full carbon and probably lighter, on the other hand the Cannondale has the Cannondale badge on it. Overall, I reckon its one all there.

Heres a pic of the planet X http://www.planet-x-bikes.com/road/files/uplink/MegaValue999Carbon.jpg

The Planet X will have a better groupset Ultegra vs 105 (Again either works fine and you won't notice the difference either way, but if you have a choice, you are always going Ultegra every time). The wheels are much of a muchness, bottom of the range but perfectly functional Mavics vs bottom of the range but perfectly functional Reynolds.

Finishing Kit, again not much in it, I like the Fizik saddle on the Cannondale, the rest is Generic cannondale stuff which will be unspectacular but functional. The Planet X is also using own brand finish kit (which as I said before, I really like, it is great quality stuff and as light as much higher end kit, some people might prefer a carbon seatpost, but I never found any difference in feel despite all the blurb, that said you can upgrade for 40 quid).

So all in all, the difference is:

Planet X: Lighter bike overall, Better groupset, gets fantastic reviews.

Cannondale: Has the Cannondale name, gets fantastic reviews, plus you can walk into the store and test it.

I reckon if you are going for the Cannondale you are essentially paying 1000 euro to be able to sit on it in a shop and have a sales assistant tell you that it fits you ! Not that there is anything wrong with that. I know my own dimensions and measurements so I am pretty comfortable ordering online although I did buy a mountainbike this morning and was lost at sea as I know zero about MTB's, so what I did was head into my LBS and try out a few sizes, went home and ordered that size (I support my LBS, buying stuff probably once a week, but when it comes down to giving them 1000 euro for the same bike I can get online for 600 then they can forget it !)

I think a compact chainset should be fine for you, don;t forget the new bike will be lighter and honestly, If you cannot make it through the Wicklow 200 on a compact perhaps you should hold off on spending this much on a bike ! Plus, riding without the triple will make you stronger. Now if you were talking about the alps that might be different.... (even at that a compact with a 27 on the back would get you up pretty much anything).

What are your dimensions ? Your height, build, inside leg ? From that you can get an approximation and narrow it down to a couple of sizes usually. Frame is most important as its the most expensive, but there is a huge element of personal choice. E.g. some guys buy a size smaller and ride with huge amounts of seatpost and extra long stems, others have bikes a size too big (Lance Armstrong rode a 58cm Trek, but if you were his height and went to your local bike shop, they would recommend you a 56).

I guess you pays your money and makes your choice. I reckon both bikes are fine buys. A grand extra for a "big" name ? Or a bit of time and research invested in getting a better deal ? I would go for the bargain, but thats me, other people prefer a bit more security and theres nothing wrong with that either.

Hungrycol

SIX13:
Six hours in the saddle, everyday, over 20 days. Belgian cobbles. The Dolomites, Alps, Pyrenees. The TdF, TdG, ToC, Giro, Vuelta. Pro peloton raced...podium proven.

Planet X... emmmm

ba

this kind of statistic is what seduces me to the Specialized Tarmac Comp/Expert. i am in a similar situation as above, with 2500eur and cycle 200km a week.

next year i plan to race with my club and to cycle the wicklow 200 and various long distance charity gigs.

btw this thread has been great help! thanks.

having looked through cyclogical/eurocycles/cycleways, and watching TdF, Vuelta + Tour of Pologne, the specailzed tarmac features heavily in the pro-tours and seems value for money even though the market seems quite competitive.

for 2300, carbon frame, mavic aksium/ksyrium and 105/ultegra components, i believe this setup is hard to beat? and i have some moneys spare for pedals and fancy shoes.

the bike i ride now is a giant ocr3, understandably i'm not going second hand again as i didnt really have a choice about things a few months ago. but it is a good solid bike. ill kit it out with mud-guards for winter training. essentially i plan on having a summer and winter bike.

there are no tarmacs size 58 in cycleways but they say theyre working on it so i can test one.

Quigs Snr

Pro team endorsements do not make a good bike Hungrycol (although often they are good indicators), remember Ridley a few years ago ? Frames snapping left right and center - they seem to have that in order now and by all accounts are a fine bike, but back then, Pro's were riding on them and some were not happy campers !

Planet X frames are top class rebadges made in the same factory (Probably Martec) as almost every other carbon frame out there. For example the PlanetX TT (Also sold by Pedalforce and about 12 other manufacturer/rebadge operations - search for threads on weightweenies and bikeforums.net) looked rather splendid sitting underneath Cadel Evans painted in Ridley colors during this years tour and he did pretty alright on it as I recall.... It also similarly suited his team mate (cannot recall his name now) who rode the same frame to gold in this years world U23 champs.

Don't fall foul to the hype. The Cannondale is a decent machine and I am not criticising it. I have seen the planet X in action, in real live races, performing very well against Cervelo's, Treks etc.... If you want to pay for a badge, good luck to you, I can hardly criticise as I do it myself all the time with Groupsets (must have Dura Ace or Record) Cars, TV's etc.. but not with Bike frames, especially if they are going to be raced. (For what its worth I ride an older Trek 5500, all carbon with Dura Ace and Kysrium SL - 16lbs - plus an unbadged all carbon with Dura Ace bike that weighs in around 14.5lbs - I built the unbadged one myself and had a great experience with it, so thats why I am pretty keen on this whole thing)

I do like that Specialized that was mentioned. I know a guy picked up a 08 model for 2100 in our LBS. Good deal. Wheels were a bit naff, but 105 all round and a super frame (A very popular frame last year, saw a lot of them in races around Ireland). Would take that over the Cannondale any day of the week even if the Cannondale was 400 cheaper rather than 400 more expensive.

I am not sure how much faith I put in bike reviews either. How often do you see a magazine say anything other than a particular bike is great, light, stiff, compliant etc... ? User reviews are worse, you either get Hysterical fanboys or people who got a puncture and think its the worst bike ever. The fact is that the differences in performance between all of these bikes is much, much tinier than the difference in price. A guy from my club has gotten a few national medals this year in Various events riding on an 800 euro giant scr2 that would damn near give you a hernia trying to lift up. When he gets his new 3000 euro carbon dream machine, he might be fractionally quicker, but he's taking a big jump. Between a bunch of bikes with 105 or above, similar level wheels and carbon frames you are realistically going to see no difference as long as the bike fits.

Ghost Rider

That's pretty amazing. Good to know.

Quigs Snr wrote:

The fact is that the differences in performance between all of these bikes is much, much tinier than the difference in price. A guy from my club has gotten a few national medals this year in Various events riding on an 800 euro giant scr2 that would damn near give you a hernia trying to lift up. When he gets his new 3000 euro carbon dream machine, he might be fractionally quicker, but he's taking a big jump. Between a bunch of bikes with 105 or above, similar level wheels and carbon frames you are realistically going to see no difference as long as the bike fits.

Hungrycol

UCI Individual Classification at 2nd September:
No. 1 Danilo DI LUCA 232.00 points - Liguigas on Cannondale
No. 2 Alberto CONTADOR 191.00 points - Discovery on Trek
No. 3 Alejandro VALVERDE 190.00 points - Caisse d'Epargne on Pinarrello

UCI Team Classification at 2nd September:
No. 1 Team CSC (on Cervelo)
No. 2 Discovery
No. 3 Liquigas

... and Planet X (or rebadged whatsits) is in there at number.... oh hang on sorry I'm wrong they're not there silly me. Yep it seems the Pro teams don't have scooby what they're doing . You guys :rolleyes:

I like 'dales and you like Planet X. 'nuf said. Lets be friends.

tunney

This time last year I was going through the planetx vs cannondale road bike decisions myself. I have to admit the planetx bikes seem attractive but at the end of the day I went cannondale as (a)I already had a cannondale and loved it (b)If I can't ride it before I buy it then how can I be sure I like it (c)Alu vs carbon fibre, I'm not a fan of the Carbon fibre and the Cannondale CAAD9 is a thing of beauty.

Also I was aware of the PX Stealth TT bike, heavy as f*ck.

A year on I'm still in love with my Cannondales, and am looking at getting a new TT bike, Cannondale Slice maybe.

Membrane wrote:

Standard doubles are IMO simply not suitable for the tougher climbs in the Wicklow Mountains, even when you are Marco Pantani. You may (just) be able to get up them, but you'll sour up your leg muscles no end by having to stand.

I've yet to encounter a hill in Wicklow that required anything more than a 39x25

Membrane

tunney wrote:

I've yet to encounter a hill in Wicklow that required anything more than a 39x25

It would be interesting to do a test.

I'm a non fit 46YO male with a 13Kg Eur215 Hlafords bike with 37c tyres and a MTB style triple. I'd be interested in a match with someone who's super fit on a super duper bike with a 39x25 on the climb pictured below.



Conditions: going up it without sour'ing up your legs, ergo remain seated all the way.

I reckon I have a decent chance of winning that contest

Hungrycol

Membrane wrote:

remain seated all the way.

Why???

Membrane

Hungrycol wrote:

Why???

Afaik standing continuesly for a considerable length of time sours up leg muscles to no end (lactic acid?). Assuming that the aim is to compare suitability of equipment for real world rides (as opposed to a short test), sour'ing up muscles should be avaoided.

I used to climb exclusively whilst standing on the pedals (I liked the feeling), since I've changed that and remain seated for anything but short burst my staying power has increased considerably.

Hungrycol

Membrane wrote:

Afaik standing continuesly for a considerable length of time sours up leg muscles to no end (lactic acid?). Assuming that the aim is to compare suitability of equipment for real world rides (as opposed to a short test), sour'ing up muscles should be avaoided.

I used to climb exclusively whilst standing on the pedals (I liked the feeling), since I've changed that and remain seated for anything but short burst my staying power has increased considerably.

Humm, not sure I'm convinced but I see the logic. Will have to try it out. One advocate of that style is Floyd Landis. Notorious for not getting out of his saddle no matter how steep the climb was.

Clum

Have found this thread really useful for advice on bikes. Unfortunately I'm even greener than OP when it comes to bikes as I'm only getting in to the whole road bike scene. I've certainly picked up a lot here but I'd be interested in hearing comparisons between the Shimano gearsets. Is there really that big a difference between 2200, sora, tiagra and Ultegra?

tunney

yes.

Thankfully I've never ridden 2200 or sora but I've had some tiagra, 105, ultegra and durace stuff. The higher up the food chain you get the lighter and more refined the parts become. Bar the wheels and BB once you go to 105 the're all pretty similar functionally.

Quigs Snr

Not sure on the standing up a hill, guess its all down to the length of the hill and the rider himself, it does use more energy, but conversely produces a little more power for most (Lance Armstrong however found he produced more sustainable power sitting down spinning, only standing to attack). I went up Mahon Falls (A tough 4.5k as any of the guys who did the Sean Kelly will attest to)at the weekend standing most of the way with some of the lads who were first past the post on the Sean Kelly Tour, if I sat down I would probably have fallen back a little, but thats probably my riding style, I am small and lightweight and practice riding that way on hills, so I probably incur less of a penalty standing. On the alpes its another matter, I was glued to my saddle most of the way up Alpe D'Huez, its just too long to stand all the way. How long is that Wicklow climb and whats the gradient ?

I am 100% with Tunney on the groupsets. 2200 and Sora are not very good at all, barely functional when set up correctly (I had Sora which is usually 8 speed, on an old Trek and 2200 on the better halfs Giant), but it will get the job done whilst starting out, for racing though it might let you down when you really need that gearshift to engage when trying to respond to an attack on a climb or something like that. Tiagra which is usually 9 speed is marginally better but 105 (10 speed) is a huge jump, largely because at that stage the parts become interchangeable (i.e. : 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace parts will all work with each other, so they are basically the same technology with various levels of refinement. I ride Dura Ace for pure snobbery but Ultegra is best bang per buck being only marginally more expensive than 105 if you shop around, but 105 is good enough to race on at any level and I would not turn my nose up at any bike that had it). The problem with the Sora/Tiagra stuff is that its just not that upgradeable, so if you can get 105 at all, then you're laughing.

Hungrycol, I'm still not buying linking a bikes protour standings to its quality, thats more a function of marketing than engineering, theres nothing between the majority of brands out there at the higher end. You trying to tell me a Cannondale or Specialized is better than an Issac for example ? What about Litespeed, they have a small team lower down the rankings, does that make them less than Decathlon (when they sponsored AG2R ? ot BTwin bikes who sponsor them now ?) - I don't think you'd get many takers on that. And whilst we are at it, Litespeed, a hugely respected manufacturer - their Pavia carbon frame was an off the peg taiwan special from the same place as the Planet X. I didn't see Mr Cadel Evans being overly concerned about the weight of that apparenly heavy as f*ck frame whilst effectively winning (If we discount Vino) the first time trial of this years tour, which you might recall was mostly upward inclined... Weight is not a limiting factor for TT bikes at any rate.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of the Planet X. I think its every bit as good a bike as the other bikes mentioned within the OP's budget, and with the Money saved and some smart upgrades, he could get a lot more bang per buck. On paper at least. But no, if I had my choice and money was no object I would take the Cervelo R3 or Pinarello Paris or Dogma any day thank you very much, I might even be swayed for a Colnago C50 or DeRosa King. But Cervelo is the one that does it for me at the minute.

But it comes back to the original question 2.5k to spend. I am trying to be objective here. I don't own any of the bikes in question, but know people who do for most of them and they all think theirs is the best bike ever. Cannondale, Specialized or Planet X ? You could get a better specced planet X, in fact a seriously nicely specced build for the same or less money than the others. HOWEVER - if you don't know what you are doing, its a gamble, you can't sit on it and get sized etc... in which case you might be better off go in and get an off the peg bike with a bit of pre and post sale support which you pay extra for. Good luck with whatever you do, I would bet the mortgage on you being no quicker on a dura-ace equipped Colnago that a 105 equipped anything else to be honest so you can't really lose. I think everyone here is giving you good advice, every bike mentioned is more than capable of what you are looking for and then some. Bike choice as you will have seen here is a very personal thing which varies wildly... some swear steel is real, others including the aforementioned Danilo DeLuca love aluminium, didn't DeLuca ride an Aluminium bike for nearly the entire season that he won the overall Pro tour ? Others won't part with their titaniums. I know lads who won't look at anything that doesn't say trek. Others who won't ride something thats not made in Italy with campag components - actually theres quite a few of those about. Some won't buy on the web, others won't buy in a shop etc...

Whatever ye do, we'll see you on the road for the Wicklow 200 next year anyway, if I'm not racing that weekend I'll be along for the spin out, we should put a boards squad together and have the craic, maybe even test out Membranes climbing method !

Chips Lovell

Quigs Snr wrote:

I'm still not buying linking a bikes protour standings to its quality, thats more a function of marketing than engineering, theres nothing between the majority of brands out there at the higher end.

Been meaning to jump in and say this, but Quigs got there before me. Bike manufacturers pay teams to use their bikes. For example, Specialized are said to have paid Quickstep over a million a year for the current deal. And that didn't even work out too well for them. After bragging that all the riders would be using off the peg frames, they only had to go and design a new bike for Boonen.

infinity&beyond

Quigs Snr wrote:

What are your dimensions ? Your height, build, inside leg ? From that you can get an approximation and narrow it down to a couple of sizes usually.

Ok, I'm kinda swaying towards the Planet X bike on value for money. But I really want to make sure I'm getting the right bike size. And sizing differs from bike to bike, manufacturer to manufacturer, from what I can tell, depending on top bar slope and length. Can anyone give me any help on this, or direct me to good web sites?

My dimensions are as follows: I'm 6ft (or 183cm), have an inside leg measure of 87cm. I typically weigh 12.5st-13st (er, now up towards the top of the range). Is that enough or should I supply more measurements?


I'd just like to say at this point that this thread has been extremely informative. Starting this thread was my first ever post........I've been so positively surprised at how willing people are to impart their knowledge. Cheers everyone.

Quigs Snr

Boonen is a beast though, he refuses to use Carbon cranks as well apparently. Insists on Aluminium despite the rest of the team using different or at least he did when they were on Time bikes. Riders mostly ride whatever they are given but some have their personal preferences thats why you get a lot of riders changing out parts (the better you are they more likely they will let you do this) rebadging their various bits n'pieces, loads of articles on various message boards about that. I think Pez Cycling or CyclingNews had one running during the tour, I was amazed at how much of it goes on.

Infinity, the Planet X is semi-sloping and like most semi-sloping frames they have a smaller range of sizes requiring you to faff about with stems and seatposts to get it right. I have to say that I fully agree with HungryCol and the rest on getting fitted for a bike (I would try if I were you to get fitted on a similar type bike - the lapierres are very similar for example, although its not the ideal way of doing it). In General, I reckon a size L in the planet X, the 44cm bars should be about right and would be average enough for your size. Not sure about the stem, depends on your flexibility, personal preferences and upper body length the 110mm should be ok to start with and you can tweak it up or down (more likely up - but they are cheap enough), but tell you what I am not mad about is the 175mm cranks... I ride a 170 but I am short, with short legs and ride high tempo, some of the other bigger lads might be able to help you out there, suggestions anyone ? I have only ever ridden 170's. I think 172.5 is average on most off the pegs, but cannot swear to that ? 175's in theory should give you a little more leverage and are probably fine, I am wondering if they might be a little too much for you, on the other hand I am wondering if it makes that much difference at all, and I can't answer that.

PlanetX themselves will help you with the sizing if you give them a call. I would caution again though, that the other guys are right. If you are not sure about buying online you are better off going to a shop.... You need to research this well if you are going down this path.

Membrane

Hungrycol wrote:

Humm, not sure I'm convinced but I see the logic. Will have to try it out. One advocate of that style is Floyd Landis. Notorious for not getting out of his saddle no matter how steep the climb was.

To be clear, I do stand to get over short humps, always staying on the saddle would slow me down considerably on undulating terrain with short sharp climbs. It is standing for more than a short period (~>10 seconds) that noticably degrades my performance over the duration of a ride.

infinity&beyond

Quigs Snr wrote:

I have to say that I fully agree with HungryCol and the rest on getting fitted for a bike

PlanetX themselves will help you with the sizing if you give them a call. I would caution again though, that the other guys are right. If you are not sure about buying online you are better off going to a shop.... You need to research this well if you are going down this path.

Just when I thought that I was coming to a conclusion.... :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I've been on the Planet X website and Madigan Pro Bike Centre in Carrickfergus, Co. Antrim is an "authorised fitting and testing" centre for them. I'm going to email them now to see if it's ok to come up and test ride the bike, get measured up. If that's possible then all my problems solved

Membrane

infinity&beyond wrote:

Just when I thought that I was coming to a conclusion.... :rolleyes:

Adding some contradictory advice to add to your confusion: I've only ever bought bikes that were about right for me using self measurement: never had any problems with discomfort or pain.

This may be different for some, but I'd say unless you know that you need a precise bike geometry to avoid problems, a bike that is roughly ok for your size should work out fine, especially with compact frames (stems can be changed at no great cost).

tunney

Membrane wrote:

Adding some contradictory advice to add to your confusion: I've only ever bought bikes that were about right for me using self measurement: never had any problems with discomfort or pain.

This may be different for some, but I'd say unless you know that you need a precise bike geometry to avoid problems, a bike that is roughly ok for your size should work out fine, especially with compact frames (stems can be changed at no great cost).

Dude no offense but you've already described yourself as "a non fit 46YO male with a 13Kg Eur215 Hlafords bike with 37c tyres and a MTB style triple", who actually thinks they'd beat a trained individual on a proper bike. I know I stopped taking you seriously there and then.

Quigs Snr, I agree with you on the fact that the weight of a TT bike is not as important as the weight of a road bike but the PX TT bike is ridicously heavy compared to other TT bikes, I've yet to encounter any TT bike even close to as heavy as the PX.

Quigs Snr

Infinity, the location of that test centre makes sense, it would certainley explain why most of the planetX bikes I have seen in races in Ireland tend to be in the north, or from northern based teams.

Tunney, it would be hard to compare, but in general the Cervelo P3 is considered one of the finest TT bikes in the world and carried Canceralla to the World Championships.

In a 56cm it weights 1290 grams. (Frame only - all weights from here are frame only, full bikes may be a different matter depending on the component level of course, pedalforce are one of the few places that will sell you a low spec TT bike)

The planet X/pedalforce/ridley TT (insert generic rebadger operation here) does not come in a 56, its size L is a 57 and it weighs 1400grams.

So, slightly bigger, 110 grams heavier and good enough to win a TT in the 2007 Tour de France and also the World U23 TT championships.... its no slouch, and not that heavy for a TT bike (although granted, you can get lighter, and I would take the Cervelo any day given the choice).

Armstrongs Trek TT frame when he dominated the 2004 Tour weighed in at 1680 grams, the lighter 2005 TTX model weighed in at 1450g. Armstrong did pretty ok in those races too.... !

Membrane

tunney wrote:

Dude no offense but you've already described yourself as "a non fit 46YO male with a 13Kg Eur215 Hlafords bike with 37c tyres and a MTB style triple", who actually thinks they'd beat a trained individual on a proper bike. I know I stopped taking you seriously there and then.

That is a gross misrepresentation of a very specific challenge intended to demonstrate the efficiency of having the right gears for a given terrain, not unlike the climbing demonstration organized by the Touring Club de France in 1902 where the champion of the day Edouard Fischer, on a single-speed was soundly beaten by amatuer female cyclist Marthe Hesse on a 3 speed bike.

The only way you can prove your point is taking me on in that challenge, but I have a feeling that you won't, knowing that there's a decent chance that you'll lose.

Quigs Snr

Well a lot will depend on the rider Membrane. If the hill is a solid 20% gradient for a couple of miles then the lighter gears might well win the day. But if its a couple of miles of 8% then you can spin away in a 30x27 at 100rpm all day long or whatever gear it is, whilst a race cyclist will likely power up in a 39x21at 70rpm leaving you in the dust. I was giving it socks on a 10% once in a 39x23 and was passed by an Irish pro-rider who was doing a power interval in a 53x17. Sickener !

That being said, if the race cyclist is not a great climber and the slope or distance is particularly difficult, then he could well be weaving all over the road in slow motion when you spin past.

Chips Lovell

Still don't get the "have to remain seated rule".

Membrane

Quigs Snr wrote:

Well a lot will depend on the rider Membrane. If the hill is a solid 20% gradient for a couple of miles then the lighter gears might well win the day. But if its a couple of miles of 8% then you can spin away in a 30x27 at 100rpm all day long or whatever gear it is, whilst a race cyclist will likely power up in a 39x21at 70rpm leaving you in the dust.

My argument is that for the proposed short duration steep climb a fit rider using a high end bike with inappropriate gearing for the gradient will lose to a non fit rider on a low end bike that has appropriate gearing for the gradient.

I posed the challenge in response to this statement:

tunney wrote:

I've yet to encounter a hill in Wicklow that required anything more than a 39x25

So I proposed a hill slope in Wicklow to demonstrate that a 39x25 is not a sufficiently low enough gearing to deal with some of the gradients found in Wicklow. I did so not in attempt to demean fit riders, I only want to expose what IMO is an inappropriate "you're not a man if you can't turn a 39x25" attitude.

I'm not holding out much hope that tunney takes up the challenge, any other fit rider on a high end 39x25 double up for it?

I'm happy to do the experiment twice, once sitting down, and once standing. I reckon I have a good chance of winning the seated challenge, not sure about standing, but I think I stand a fighting chance to win that one also. I don't know the percentage of the hill in question, but it is pretty steep. IMO too steep even to be able to climb it efficiently when standing on a 39x25.

ba

how does this climb compare to howth summit? i never get as far as wicklow on the week days but am always riding the summit.

i never use my triple on howth, and regularly hop out of my saddle for last 150metre sprint to the rise of every hill.

buy how does howth compare to this pass membrane speaks of?

Quigs Snr

I didn't find any hills in Wicklow (not on the W200 anyway) that I felt I needed more than a 39-23 or 39-25 on. Possible exception of parts of the devils glen in 2005 when I was starting out, struggled over that in the end and would have sold a Kidney for a triple at the time, I wouldn't have a problem with it these days (I hope not anyway).

But that doesn't make me a hero, fact is there are plenty of hills that hurt me, hills hurt everyone, I was at the Etape last year, and was much derided for riding a compact on the day (the typical, not a man if you have easy gears nonsense), nonetheless I found myself spinning away up Alpe D'Huez on a 34-25, passing by plenty of dead hero's getting off to walk with their 39-25's (although plenty of very good riders were shooting up past me in 39x19's !, my lighter gears were no match for legs that could actually turn the bigger ones)

Again I reckon the steepness depends on the rider, put a Cat A or B rider with tough gearing up against you on any slope with any gears and if you are on the bike you mention and not exaggering your lack of fitness you will get a good hiding. That said, under certain circumstances, I reckon there is merit in what you say as long as the gap between the riders is not too severe and the slope is extreme.

tunney

My sporting season is over, I'm getting married in two weeks. However I'm more than happy to toddle on up the little hill when I get back from honeymoon at the beginning of November. I should have my new SRMs then so I'll only be too happy to have an excuse to go out on them.

Sally gap, Wicklow Gap, Devils Glen, up to the mast at Kippure, Bohernabreena, and on and on and on..... I've yet to find a climb in or around Dublin that requires getting out of the saddle.

You talk about "improperly geared" bikes. What makes a bike improperly geared? When the terrain and duration of a ride are too much for a specific rider. Whats too tough for one is too easy for another. I've been on training camps where I've struggled up hills in a 39x27 while others on the camp have been happily spinning away from me in their big rings. Its all down to the individual rider, their weight, and the training they do. I've done alot of overgeared work on hills and on the turbo which the resistance cranked up to help build leg strength over the last few years and its helped me build my leg strength alot. I've also dropped huge amounts of weight.

In short I'm happy my bikes are properly geared for me for the terrain where I cycle.

Membrane

ba wrote:

how does this climb compare to howth summit?

Much harder when compared to Sutton -> Howth Harbour, about the same difficulty for the steepest bit in the Howth Harbour -> Sutton direction. But that steep Howth bit is only a few metres long, it can easely be done whilst standing without sour'ing up your muscles.

The Wicklow climb I referred to takes about 2 minutes to climb, enough to build up a significant amount of lactic acid that won't be easy to get rid of.

Membrane

tunney wrote:

You talk about "improperly geared" bikes. What makes a bike improperly geared?

My rule of thumb would be an ability to remain seated on the toughest gradients and not drop cadence below 80rpm. Less than 80rpm and the lactic acid is likely to build up, degrading long term performance.

infinity&beyond

Sorry, a diversion from the above argument.

I emailed Madigan Cycles in Carrickfergus (just north of Belfast), the official Planet X agent. I'm going to call up to them to get fitted for and supplied with their Pro Carbon (the E999 deal). Here's their response:


We normally keep all sizes in stock. What size do you need?
All bikes are built in the shop, you can make an appointment to be
measured with the bikefitting system. The cost of this is 30.00pounds
sterling but you will get a discount if you decide to buy a bike. The
price they quote on the internet does not include assembly or carriage.
We can work with you on saturday but it will take a little longer. I am on
holiday at the present but will be back on Monday 17th so I will contact
you with availability.
We can then let you know how quickly we can supply.
Regards Ronnie.


Pretty self explanatory. Great news for those of us who want their hands held while still getting a great deal.

I can't head up for about 3 weeks (and who knows, maybe by then there'll be a further price reduction on 2007 model??).

I'll post back and let you know how I get on.