Shannon Heathrow lobby haven't thought the issues through

probe

On RTE DriveTime this afternoon, the Shannon lobby was quoted by Fergal Keane on the superb efficiency of Heathrow as a connecting point for flights to Hong Kong :-)

While Hong Kong was a British colony some time ago, it is actually much faster to get there via Paris!

Example: Business class from Dublin via CDG2 > HKG on 13 September

Dept Dublin 19h35 – Arrive CDG2 22h30
Dept CDG2 23h15 – Arrive HKG 17h05+1
Total journey time: 14h30
No change of terminal at CDG. Connection delay 45 min
Business class fare : € 2,279.49
Aircraft B-777

VIA British Airways
Dept Dublin 12h40 Arr LON 14h00
Dept LON 18h25 Arr HKG 13h20+1
Total journey time about 4 hours slower than via Paris CDG
Business class fare on BA: €5,525.09 - twice as expensive as Air France
Aircraft: obsolete B-747
Don't interline your baggage via LHR or you have a high risk of arriving without your change of clothes! [Best to wait and collect your baggage, drag it with you terminal to terminal, on bus/off bus, etc and queue up to check it in again for your connecting flight].

The numbers speak for themselves. With Air France you get a day’s work done before your flight and can sleep your way to Hong Kong. With BA you have to be at the Irish airport early in the morning.

Source: www.airfrance.ie
And www.ba.com (BA doesn’t even have an Irish website URL)

.probe

KC61

probe wrote:

On RTE DriveTime this afternoon, the Shannon lobby was quoted by Fergal Keane on the superb efficiency of Heathrow as a connecting point for flights to Hong Kong :-)

While Hong Kong was a British colony some time ago, it is actually much faster to get there via Paris!

Example: Business class from Dublin via CDG2 > HKG on 13 September

Dept Dublin 19h35 – Arrive CDG2 22h30
Dept CDG2 23h15 – Arrive HKG 17h05+1
Total journey time: 14h30
No change of terminal at CDG. Connection delay 45 min
Business class fare : € 2,279.49
Aircraft B-777

VIA British Airways
Dept Dublin 12h40 Arr LON 14h00
Dept LON 18h25 Arr HKG 13h20+1
Total journey time about 4 hours slower than via Paris CDG
Business class fare on BA: €5,525.09 - twice as expensive as Air France
Aircraft: obsolete B-747
Don't interline your baggage via LHR or you have a high risk of arriving without your change of clothes! [Best to wait and collect your baggage, drag it with you terminal to terminal, on bus/off bus, etc and queue up to check it in again for your connecting flight].

The numbers speak for themselves. With Air France you get a day’s work done before your flight and can sleep your way to Hong Kong. With BA you have to be at the Irish airport early in the morning.

Source: www.airfrance.ie
And www.ba.com (BA doesn’t even have an Irish website URL)

.probe

I would think 45 minutes is way too short to allow for a connection at any international airport nowadays - you've no provision for any delay in the first flight - even if the airline puts it forward as a viable connection.

I would always allow at least 100 minutes between flights.

Also, there is no business class on EI services on DUB/LHR (BA codeshare) and for some reason the BA website has given you a connecting flight to LGW. If you chose economy class you can have a much tighter connection at LHR.

Really this has nothing to do with Shannon which does not have a Paris option to choose from!!!!

billy the squid

What has Dublin-Hong Kong got to do with Shannon? Last time I checked, Shannon and Dublin were two different airports.

MathsManiac

If you're not connecting through, then it doesn't much matter which London airport you land at. If you are connecting through, I'd agree that Heathrow is appalling. One of my highest priorities when booking flights to anywhere is to avoid Heathrow.

(Schipol rocks!)

parsi

billy the squid wrote:

What has Dublin-Hong Kong got to do with Shannon? Last time I checked, Shannon and Dublin were two different airports.

Don't worry. Next Probe will be telling us about how his littlew town in France/Switzerland has solved the problem of teh Shannon flights just like it solved all of Corks problems...

probe

KC61 wrote:

I would always allow at least 100 minutes between flights.

I have never had a problem with a tight connection on AF to Air France. Their website is offering this connection on an end to end basis from Dublin. I know the Aer Lingus/Aer Rianta/Ryanair mafia tell people to check-in at least two hours before their flight and force people to go through passport checks when connecting at Dublin Airport even when arriving from another Irish airport - but don't let this propaganda and British airport-style pig-inefficiency at Dublin Airport put one off if one is simply transferring from one gate to another within the same terminal (eg CDG2) on Air France KLM flights.

Really this has nothing to do with Shannon which does not have a Paris option to choose from!!!!

It doesn't at the moment. But one understands that talks are ongoing between gov.ie and airfrance.ie about a SNN>CDG2 service. The SNNlobby won't change pig-headed Aer Lingus. Time to wake up and smell the coffee and pursue a superior alternative!

World's largest airlines ($ revenues):

1 Air France KLM $30 bn
2 Lufthansa $ 25 bn
3 American $ 22 bn
4 Japan Airlines $20 bn
5 UAL $19 bn
6 Delta $17 bn
7 British Airways $16 bn

.probe

aliveandkicking

In all this hysteria over the Shannon region losing the connectively Heathrow offers has anyone actually bothered to research what percentage of passengers travel onwards from Heathrow?

probe

MathsManiac wrote:

If you're not connecting through, then it doesn't much matter which London airport you land at.

So long as you land near your London area destination! Public ground transport in GB is just as bad as Heathrow airport.... same as ground transport in Dublin is as bad as Dublin Airport :-(

(Schipol rocks!)

While it is better than LHR, it doesn't have the global connectivity, is stuck in the same air traffic congested control mess as LHR (Southern England/Benelux/Northern Germany) and like Dublin airport has only one terminal - giving one long walks and zillions of people packed into a massive human traffic jam.

Charles de Gaulle has 8 terminals to keep people apart and shorten the walk from check-in to gate and arrival to baggage claim, 4 runways (compared with LHR's 2) and twice the global connectivity - Air France is twice the size of BA, and CDG is open to foreign carriers (eg three times as many US carriers fly to CDG compared with LHR).

.probe

probe

aliveandkicking wrote:

In all this hysteria over the Shannon region losing the connectively Heathrow offers has anyone actually bothered to research what percentage of passengers travel onwards from Heathrow?

I also suspect that the SNN/LHRhystericals don't do much if any long haul travel. If you go to Hong Kong regularly, you will know that is preferable to do it via CDG in the evening, changing from one gate to another in the same terminal, have a nice meal on your Air France flight, served by people to whom personal service is part of the culture (rather than British style class system indoctrinated victims who regard performing personal service as beneath them) and go to sleep. Same going to South Africa or similar. You wake up next day, have breakfast and land shortly after that.

Changing terminals at LHR is such a hassle, wastes half a working day. Baggage transfers have a high failure rate and connection times are much longer. Heathrow is a pre-war military air base that stumbled into being a large airport. CDG was purpose built on a greenfield site.

There is no doubt that Shannon needs big hub connectivity as does Cork because the Irish economy has become frighteningly dependent on globalisation. While globalisation is largely unsustainable in the long term, the country is stuck with it for the next few decades.

.probe

billy the squid

aliveandkicking wrote:

In all this hysteria over the Shannon region losing the connectively Heathrow offers has anyone actually bothered to research what percentage of passengers travel onwards from Heathrow?

25 to 30 percent. the highest percentage of passengers meeting connecting flights in the country.

Shannon heathrow accounts for 10 percent of shannon airport's passenger flights.

highlydebased

I believe I posted (somewhere) before regarding the number of connections available in AMS/CDG on the KLM/AFR Network, that compared to LHR. There were MANY more connections within a 2.5 hour timeframe of your arrival in AMS/CDG, than there was in LHR.

Now, while Willie Walsh says that LHR is great for connections and so on, I honestly dont see why it is nessecary to connect there. AMS and CDG are just as good. Also, if you fly to CDG or AMS and are flying further east (To DXB, SYD, JNB etc) It may shave around an hours flying time off as you will already be in Europe (Particularly applies to CDG)

Hotblack Desiato

probe wrote:

The SNN lobby won't change pig-headed Aer Lingus.

Could be something to do with how Shannon screwed Aer Lingus for years, then offered its biggest competitor a sweetheart deal.

Suddenly when Aer Lingus announce they are upping sticks, they magic up 4 million of cost savings out of nowhere. Too little too late lads.

The sooner Shannon is stripped of all state aid, hidden subsidies (Aer Lingus' unwritten obligation to serve it no matter what) and stopovers the better for everyone.

Let it stand or fall on its own two feet as Knock has, in the long run breaking the entitlement mindset will be the best thing that could ever happen to it and the region.

corktina

i ddnt hear anyone comment yet that the new route would be an internal UK route served by a foreign airline. Surely if those slots at Heathrow were provided fro the benefit of Irish passengers and by all accounts negotiated by the irsh Govt, then AL shouldnt be able to use them for an internal UK service. (i dont know much about aviation so im probably talking nonsense...)

KC61

I accept your point Probe that it was advertised on the BA website, but with the range of flights offered by both EI and BMI on DUB/LHR you would NEVER need to wait 4 hours between flights at LHR. Any travel agent will sell you a through C class ticket DUB/HKG on BMI/BA but it ain't possible on BA's website to do that via LHR as EI have no C class - hence it routed you via LGW and a ground transfer to LHR!!!

So the example you offer is slightly disingenuous as it is possible to make that connection far more easily than you have suggested.

Having said that, SNN really need to look forward and start fighting for connections to AMS, CDG and FRA and even MAD to maximise connectivity.

GerardKeating

billy the squid wrote:

What has Dublin-Hong Kong got to do with Shannon? Last time I checked, Shannon and Dublin were two different airports.

The point was the CGD was a better hub than LHR and that Shannon should lobby a connection with CDG instead of wasting engery on changing something that will not change.

If the government win and force AL to keep SHN-LHR, then Mannion will quit.

BuffyBot

And www.ba.com (BA doesn’t even have an Irish website URL)

Eh, so?

As pointed out, you're comparing apples and oranges there.

highlydebased

It is reported the government has offered an incentive to BMI, British Airways, Cityjet and another, unknown airline

Slice

The Shannon lobby say that losing the Heathrow connection will result in the lost of 40 onward connections. I wonder if they count onward connections by airports or by destination cities. Furthermore are they counting the loss on the basis of lost onward connections from London or lost onward connections from Shannon whereby only one stop-over is required. If they're counting by airports over destination cities then this figure is most likely to be much higher than reality. Furthermore I'd like to see statistics on how many journeys have been made to these un-named 40 destinations from Shannon Airport over the last year as an indication of demand.

KC61

GerardKeating wrote:

If the government win and force AL to keep SHN-LHR, then Mannion will quit.

The Government and the Taoiseach are on record saying that the decision has been made by Aer Lingus and is final, so they are not trying to change the Aer Lingus decision.

The efforts quite rightly are on finding alternative flights, and hopefully Shannon will gain in this if (as should have happened years ago) airlines (other than Ryanair!) are offered incentives to develop destinations from the airport.

Hotblack Desiato

Neon-Circles wrote:

It is reported the government has offered an incentive to BMI, British Airways, Cityjet and another, unknown airline

What a crock, hopefully the EU will prevent the government wasting our money in this way. I'm very sceptical about the value of the supports given to airlines flying to the small regional airports, to try to do that for Shannon is just crazy.

The government haven't got the balls to do what they should do, tell the Shannon lobby once and for all that they're not getting any more preferential treatment and will have to face commercial reality. What's really disheartening was supposedly 'pro-business' FG adopting an almost Stalinist line on this issue - Enda has no credibility whatsoever as leader of a supposedly pro-enterprise party.

Hotblack Desiato

KC61 wrote:

The efforts quite rightly are on finding alternative flights, and hopefully Shannon will gain in this if (as should have happened years ago) airlines (other than Ryanair!) are offered incentives to develop destinations from the airport.

Yeah, instead of Shannon getting its act together, cutting waste and going out and competing for business, they can just go back onto the government teat :rolleyes:

Calina

I'll try to keep this short.

Firstly, my opinion is that Shannon lobbyists should be making more of an effort to get non London based flights in there. London - regardless of what it may think - isn't really teh centre of the world.

Transiting via Paris is quick and easy from Dublin if, and only if you are travelling all the way with Air France. Fly in with Aer Lingus and you wind up with a terminal change from T1 to T2. That said, T2 in Paris is one of the best designed terminals in Europe in my opinion.

However, it is true that LHR has traditionally a lot of onwards connections that are not necessarily available elsewhere. Taking the OP's example of HongKong in point, Cathay Pacific alone has four flights a day to HongKong from London. I think BA also has about four but that may have changed. The range and number of flights from LHR is just higher. Unfortunately it is a mess of an airport which should have been killed at birth. Frankfurt is better, and CDG2 is better but not in terms of the number of flights to specific destiations such as Hong Kong.

What I would say is that although he illustrates it badly, the OP has a valid point. LHR should not be the lynchpin on which all Irish airports should transit their long haul passengers and three individual flights a day should not be the sole economic asset a region has. I would have a lot more time for whatever the lobby concerned is called, and for the local reps down in Clare/LK and Tipp if they got together and said hey LHR is a fiasco anyway, let's see about Amsterdam, Paris or Frankfurt, see if we can't get something going there.

_____________________

One last thing the slots were the property - and probably the biggest asset of Aer Lingus. Removing them to "protect" them amounts to asset stripping, whether it is a State or a private equity company doing the removing. I'm fascinated to see how many people - in general - who screamed about privatising Aer Lingus for neo-liberal economic reasons - suddenly found a benefit in state ownership of a separate holding company to protect their local connection to London.

________________________

Shannon Airport is in my view, poorly managed, has been for quite some time. It's got a massive terminal building which is horrible to fly out of. Its baggage reclaim hall is tiny and twenty years ago its check in corridors were better than the current check in all is. I'm pretty sure the runway needs to be resurfaced as well. Airport development in this country - like most infrastructure - has not benefitted from any sort of joined up thinking and Shannon has not benefitted from any forward planning at all. For the airport and the region, this should be a wake up call. Unfortunately, I think it's been seen as victimisation which is never good.

highlydebased

Apparently the arrivals area will be revamped somewhat when the new extension is built.

Read on some website today that the SAA is in fact providing the "sweetner" deal, with it being backed by the govt.


Now, I am a Shannonsider and I dont want to see LHR access curbed, Im not happy about it at all, I commend the SAA for their efforts so far in attracting new carrier. But what I am NOT happy to hear is the government going backing such deals. Personally I thought the end of the stopover brought the end of such government assistance. But yet we are slipping into it again.


The runway and apron has plans for resurfacement, but not the worst. Try the taxiways and runway in Faro for example......lol

cast_iron

billy the squid wrote:

25 to 30 percent. the highest percentage of passengers meeting connecting flights in the country.

Shannon heathrow accounts for 10 percent of shannon airport's passenger flights.

Ok, lets look at these figures:

10% of Shannon traffic goes to LHR;
25-30% of this traffic is for connecting flights;
Shannon accounts for aprox 6% of Irish air traffic.

So, by my reckoning, that means this whole debacle affects:
2.5-3.0% of Shannon air traffic; and
0.15% of Irish air traffic.

In the grand scheme of things, with the fact LHR isn't that great as a hub, the whole thing sounds like a big fuss over nothing to me, tbh.

Carawaystick

good to see some hard figures CastIron. All this Chicken Licken stuff is bull manure.

Maybe if there were connecting flights in Dublin it would be a start.

Heathrow is a hellhole anyway. the way the Irish flights are treated is a disgrace. It's a f*** off Paddy to yer corrugated Iron tunnel and be happy with it.

Last News bulletin I heard there were 11 counties giving out about Aer Lingus moving out of Shannon. What counties are these?
I heard comeone giving out about Donegal people having to go to Belfast instead of Shannon !!! cos it'd be so much easier to drive all the way to Clare instead of Antrim from Donegal....