Flopped the nuts

a-k-47 · 04-09-2007 3:49pm #1

50/1 and we are now 4 handed not long at the table so no reads.

utg standard raise 4 i call on the bb qjo. (dont want to hear why i called oop with qjo)

flop
K, A, 10. 2 hearts

I lead for pot. Thoughts

Jesus Wept · 04-09-2007 3:55pm

Yea, How come u posted the hand?

1. Personally, I don't see a problem with playing JQo 4 handed.
2. You lead for pot when you flop the nuts, if he has big cards, then he likely has a piece of it.

What was the outcome? He folded and you wonder if you were incorrect to lead??

a-k-47 · 04-09-2007 4:28pm

not sure really , not interesting and low content lol...i normally stop go here or blank turn.

Flushdraw · 04-09-2007 4:32pm

Its very hard to comment on this hand without asking why you call with QJo OOP whether you want to discuss it or not.

I'd fold or raise PF but if i call i'd make my decision based on history/stats/stacks

Has it been 4 handed for long?
Has he been raising much?
Have you been check/folding to his cbets?
If you lead, what action does he normally take etc etc.

I try to find this out before i start calling raises from the blinds with weak hands. As played though i probably c/c or c/r

RoundTower · 04-09-2007 4:52pm

I hate cc here I would probably lead maybe cr.

Hectorjelly · 04-09-2007 4:57pm

why did you call out of position with QJ?

Flushdraw · 04-09-2007 4:59pm

RoundTower wrote:

I hate cc here I would probably lead maybe cr.

A check/call could look like a FD to an aggressive player. Sometimes this is an ideal flop to play that way. If i was getting creative, i would then CRAI on the turn and hope to get a call from AK, AQ or anything that hit the flop.

4 handed cash games are fun!

a-k-47 · 04-09-2007 5:06pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

why did you call out of position with QJ?

(dont want to hear why i called oop with qjo)

Prob because his name was LAGfish

. Hows the xbox?

a-k-47 · 04-09-2007 5:10pm

Flushdraw wrote:

Its very hard to comment on this hand without asking why you call with QJo OOP whether you want to discuss it or not.

I'd fold or raise PF but if i call i'd make my decision based on history/stats/stacks

Has it been 4 handed for long?
Has he been raising much?
Have you been check/folding to his cbets?
If you lead, what action does he normally take etc etc.

I try to find this out before i start calling raises from the blinds with weak hands. As played though i probably c/c or c/r

Does it matter about all the reasons why we should not play qjo oop?. As played was question really. I check folded once to one of his raises pf about an orbit before hand. There was nothing out of line at the table (10min), pretty nitty tbh.

Flushdraw · 04-09-2007 5:17pm

Well considering that i would call with QJo against certain players and not others, it matters to me. But then again i'm an ATM in cash games the last 12 months...

bottom feeder · 04-09-2007 5:28pm

Maybe im missing something here, but 4 handed and in the BB with QJo seems ok to me. just two of us in the hand i always call here..?
is this really that bad.

LuckyLloyd · 04-09-2007 5:31pm

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd · 04-09-2007 5:32pm

This post has been deleted.

bottom feeder · 04-09-2007 5:33pm

Lloyd - Jeff is right you are a big NIT...:) but point taken, actually i have start to 3-bet a lot on line and stoped limping and it has been more profitable for me. so disregard my 1st line....lol

Hectorjelly · 04-09-2007 5:33pm

bottom feeder wrote:

Maybe im missing something here, but 4 handed and in the BB with QJo seems ok to me. just two of us in the hand i always call here..?
is this really that bad.

the number of people who start the hand doesnt really affect whether you should call or not.

a-k-47 · 04-09-2007 5:48pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

the number of people who start the hand doesnt really affect whether you should call or not.

Whats abouts HU?.

RoundTower · 04-09-2007 5:52pm

Flushdraw wrote:

A check/call could look like a FD to an aggressive player.

yes but then you might hit a heart and he might fold. Or he could be the one with the flush draw. Your best chance of getting paid is if he has a good hand and will put in a lot of money on the flop.

Flushdraw · 04-09-2007 6:27pm

RoundTower wrote:

yes but then you might hit a heart and he might fold. Or he could be the one with the flush draw. Your best chance of getting paid is if he has a good hand and will put in a lot of money on the flop.

Thats generally my line in a 3 or 4 way pot but i tend to mix it up when i get HU. The lead is way more profitable, you're right

ditpoker · 04-09-2007 6:59pm

bottom feeder wrote:

Lloyd - Jeff is right you are a big NIT...:) but point taken, actually i have start to 3-bet a lot on line and stoped limping and it has been more profitable for me. so disregard my 1st line....lol

please note my sig... lloyd is not a nit... lloyd builds up his nitty persona by making comments like the ones here... lloyd will fold QJo here against certain players, but i 1000% guarantee he does not fold this all the time... NO WAY... NO WAY... NO WAY!!!

bottom feeder · 05-09-2007 4:37am

ditpoker wrote:

please note my sig... lloyd is not a nit... lloyd builds up his nitty persona by making comments like the ones here... lloyd will fold QJo here against certain players, but i 1000% guarantee he does not fold this all the time... NO WAY... NO WAY... NO WAY!!!

LOL

Hectorjelly · 05-09-2007 5:04am

once the flop comes up there are two viable alternatives, lead or chk raise. which is better depends on the player and the history. Whatever you do dont check call, thats by far the worst (as rt mentioned)

the xbox is great, im almost as good at pro ev as I used to be on the playstation now

fuzzbox · 05-09-2007 7:48am

I think the stanard play is :

Lead for the min, on the flop. If villain calls, no problem, lead for min again on the turn, if he calls again, then its time for value town on the river ... double the bet and lead.

Alternate scenarios:
#A1 : Lead for min, if villain raises, just call, then lead for min again on the turn ... see main scenario for completion

#A2 : Lead for min, villain call, lead for min on turn, villain raise, call and lead for min on any river (regardless of it completing flushes/pairing board etc), then call any raise.

#A3 : Lead for min, villain raises .... MIN-RERAISE ...

All of these will have your opponent totally mystified and are sure to get you paid the max.

Its all about the milking.

LuckyLloyd · 05-09-2007 8:31am

This post has been deleted.

Hectorjelly · 06-09-2007 1:13am

I often hear in tournaments after someone gets knocked out, well 6 handed im not folding xx, having called when obviously beaten. The point is that how many people are at the table should only be a tiny consideration when faced with a raise or almost any decision. If you think its a good idea to call raises out of position with Qjo then do it, but the no of players shouldnt enter into your consideration.

The reasons for not calling with QJ or other offsuit broadway cards is that they have terrible implied odds, its hard to get paid off when you have a monster, hard to get paid off when you are ahead and easy to get stacked when behind. You will also fold the best hand from time to time.

kryogen · 06-09-2007 1:21am

ok HJ,honestly are you saying that you shouldnt widen your range up when you become short handed?? i am interested in this. you surely must play more pots short handed and therefore your range will naturally become wider?

cardshark202 · 06-09-2007 1:23am

Yeah but you don't have to call more, you can raise more.

kryogen · 06-09-2007 1:29am

ah sure i know that! but in general im talking about, if you feel confident V your opponent and you have him down as a guy who pays you light surely you should be calling him more, ok granted its better to do it in position.....much better tbh but meh......and its always better to be raising then calling, not disputing, but i dont think you have to be as tight with your calling range 4 handed as you would with a full table.

Hectorjelly · 06-09-2007 1:30am

yeah exactly, of course you open your range when shorthanded, but never to the extent of making -ev plays

Hectorjelly · 06-09-2007 1:33am

kryogen wrote:

ah sure i know that! but in general im talking about, if you feel confident V your opponent and you have him down as a guy who pays you light surely you should be calling him more, ok granted its better to do it in position.....much better tbh but meh......and its always better to be raising then calling, not disputing, but i dont think you have to be as tight with your calling range 4 handed as you would with a full table.

if the guy is awful and you are way better than him then you obviously do call with QJ, and a lot worse hands. Since the op says:

Ak47 wrote:

not long at the table so no reads

thats neither here nor there

kryogen wrote:

but i dont think you have to be as tight with your calling range 4 handed as you would with a full table.

well I do

kryogen · 06-09-2007 1:37am

and you have backed up your belief with well thought out arguements so im not going to argue :rolleyes:

ok missed the bit where he said no reads.....apologies.

anyway OP, as played, yeah i think leading for maybe 3/4 or 2/3 of the pot is the right bet, if he raises, flat call pray a heart doesnt come and C-RAI... a heart may kill your action, if you re raise again on the flop what hands can he have to call with? if he flat cals then pretty much do the same again on turn, maybe 1/2 the pot to 2/3 again, and value bet the hell out of the river!

Flopped the nuts

Comments