Paypal Claim won but seller insufficient funds

dougal

I won a paypal claim for an item that was never delivered from Ebay seller in the UK.
I received a third of the claim as the seller had insufficient funds and paypal sent me an email stating that they have taken action against the seller and are working to recover the remainder of my claim.

Anyone know what happens in this scenario?
If they can't recover the remainder where do I stand?

Vikings

The email that would have been sent to you explained it in the shortest way possible. The seller will have to refund you if they want to use PayPal again though there can be no exact time frame given on that as it depends on the seller's willingness to cooperate. I'm afraid I can't give up any more info on that subject lest I get in trouble!

mickoneill30

This happened to me before. Luckily the transaction used my credit card. So I got onto my bank and explained what happened. They asked me to fax all the details through. They refunded the rest of the transaction.

If you use a credit card to buy something and it doesn't arrive the banks are pretty good about refunding you. Paypal are not. So always get Paypal to take the funds from your credit card.

dougal

Thanks for the replies guys.

It was a credit card transaction so I'll contact my bank and see what they say.

If the seller won't play ball it seems a pretty easy way of scamming someone.

MGrah

I'd be a little bit careful with the credit card route Dougal.

I would expect that the T&C's on Paypal would be constructed in such a way that if you go down the "chargeback" route, that you may end up owing paypal the balance (from a purely legalistic point of view).

Reason being - when you pay say €100 into your paypal account from your CC, it is charged from you to paypal who credit your account with €100. They then use those funds to pay the seller. *Note that your CC transaction is with Paypal, not the seller.
When you issue a chargeback your bank will recoever the €100 from paypal not the seller as that is where the CC transaction was. Paypal will then (depending on their internal processes but I would be more than 90% confident) debit that €100 from your paypal account leaving you with a balance of -€100 and owing them the money. The seller is not a party to your transaction with paypal, and I would not expect that paypal would have any liability for the seller not providing the product or whatever. Obviously outside of any guarantees they provide.

I would be 100% sure that the regular e-bay/paypal route was not going to work before I went to bank with this (although do not let it go more than a couple of months or you will reduce your rights with the bank).

mickoneill30

Be careful enough I suppose. I've done it once and I've a mate who's done it a few times (he buys piles of stuff from eBay). Neither of us have been chased by Paypal and if we were I'm sure the bad publicity would outweigh the few quid this costs Paypal (their fees are quite high so I presume they've factored this stuff in). We both still use the same Paypal accounts.

Mountjoy Mugger

Forgive the old post dragging up.

I've just been mugged I think. Seller is no longer a registered user, and paypal say that the item bought (21st Sept) isn't covered - €150ish.

My card company say they'll have no problem doing a charge back one month after the initial sale date. It seems to me to be a lot more reasonable to be able to recover all costs than having to wait 45 days to open a dispute with Paypal and wind up getting little or nothing.

I'm encouraged that the previous poster hasn't had any adverse reaction from Paypal as this might have swayed me.

jor el

Mountjoy Mugger wrote:

It seems to me to be a lot more reasonable to be able to recover all costs than having to wait 45 days to open a dispute with Paypal and wind up getting little or nothing.

You don't have to wait 45 days to raise a claim with Paypal, in fact if do wait 45 days you won't be able to raise a claim as there is a 45 day limit (not minimum wait).

Anyway if the seller has cleared off then Paypal won't be able to recover the funds and they'll deny all responsibility. Just because they say it, doesn't make it true though, luckily for you. Do the chargeback with the credit card. Paypal cannot do anything against you for this as that's the risk they take in being a go-between.

MGrah wrote:

Reason being - when you pay say €100 into your paypal account from your CC, it is charged from you to paypal who credit your account with €100. They then use those funds to pay the seller. *Note that your CC transaction is with Paypal, not the seller.
When you issue a chargeback your bank will recover the €100 from paypal not the seller as that is where the CC transaction was. Paypal will then (depending on their internal processes but I would be more than 90% confident) debit that €100 from your paypal account leaving you with a balance of -€100 and owing them the money. The seller is not a party to your transaction with paypal, and I would not expect that paypal would have any liability for the seller not providing the product or whatever. Obviously outside of any guarantees they provide.

That's not how it works, debiting your account without your consent would amount to fraud on their part. Not even Paypal are going to go there as credit card operators take a very dim view of that. The credit card transaction is between you and Paypal so you are always covered. A chargeback leaves Paypal out of pocket sure, but that's the nature of their business. It also encourages them to chase down bad sellers to re-claim their debt.

Lots of people don't realise you can chargeback to Paypal, probable because it states in their own help site that you can't, but in actual fact you can.

Vikings

jor el wrote:

Anyway if the seller has cleared off then Paypal won't be able to recover the funds and they'll deny all responsibility. Just because they say it, doesn't make it true though, luckily for you. Do the chargeback with the credit card. Paypal cannot do anything against you for this as that's the risk they take in being a go-between.

Ok, again this is not true.

You bought an item worth more than £150.00 but your transaction is only covered up until that amount - if you file a case and win then that will be recovered immediately and given to you.

I know your seller is no longer registered on eBay but before you jump into any decisions you should allow some time for the item to be delivered. Seller's get that status on eBay for any number of reasons and just because they have that status on eBay does not mean their PayPal account has been cleared and they have disappeared from the face of the earth!

Contact your seller directly, you should have his email from the PayPal payment and see what the story is. Allow time for it to be delivered and then claim for Non Receipt if it doesn't come, if you don't get a full refund then bring it to your card company.

mickoneill30

Mustangs wrote:

Ok, again this is not true.

Why is it not true? I've done it. I know people who've done it. Do we just have really nice banks that like to give away money.

If you purchase something with a credit card and don't receive it you're covered by the credit card. That's one of the reasons for using them.

Do you work for a bank Mustang or are you talking from personal experience?

nazoil

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/seller/ChargebackRisk-outside

Notice if you do a search on paypal site for chargeback, it doesn't give any results. I'm just sorry I didn't pay for more of my purchases on ebay using my credit card with paypal.

Bottom line is if a chargeback occurs, paypal debit the seller's account and rely on seller to furnish evidence to dispute the chargeback. If the seller is gone AWOL, then it's paypal who have to pick up the tab.

I wouldn't even bother filing a paypal claim/dispute. It's such a load of crap. If you've been scammed by a seller, report the matter to the credit card company. Paypal / Ebay are such a load of wasters.

jor el

Mustangs wrote:

Ok, again this is not true.

You bought an item worth more than £150.00 but your transaction is only covered up until that amount - if you file a case and win then that will be recovered immediately and given to you.

Which part is not true? That Paypal won't allow you to charge back, that they will penalise you if you do or that if there is no money to refund from the sellers account that they will do nothing? I believe all of this is in fact true.

If the money is there then it can be refunded. If the seller has cleared out then there is nothing to be refunded and Paypal won't do anything. In that case, the only course of action is a chargeback which, contrary to what Paypal state, is allowed.

michoneill30 wrote:

Do you work for a bank Mustang or are you talking from personal experience?

I get the impression Mustangs works for Paypal, he seems to know a lot about them.

Vikings

Yep I do work for PayPal, and I see these claims every day so have a pretty good understanding of how things work

A chargeback is something between the card holder and the card issuer, it has nothing to do with PayPal not accepting it or not as like any person, business or company, if you accept credit cards you accept the liability that there will be a chargeback. You have to look at your card terms and conditions for more details on the chargeback as I won't have them.

What I have seen is card companies tell buyer's to file a claim with PayPal before filing a chargeback, for what reason i'm not sure, probably to show that there is a valid reason for the chargeback.

What is not true from the above statement is that if a seller's account is empty that you will not receive a refund, it depends on each transaction. Each transaction is different, and each auction will let you know if there is PayPal protection on the transaction, this is listed on the auction before you buy.

Personally, I would try not to buy an item which is not covered though it's not always going to happen...I would rather pay that bit extra to a better seller to know I am covered.

Mountjoy Mugger

Mustangs wrote:

Ok, again this is not true.

Contact your seller directly, you should have his email from the PayPal payment and see what the story is.

I did. No reply. Thus my query.