Call this river?

Hectorjelly

$1 $2

Villain is 23/17/4/174

My image is quite good. I have been quite aggressive, but not overly. We havent played any major pots together, none that I remember anyway.

I get A8dd utg and make it 7, tight villain calls (utg +1), as does idiot on button.

The flop is 9x 2d 3d giving me the nut flush draw. I bet 15. Tight guy thinks for a long time and calls. Idiot folds.

Turn is the As. I check, tight guy bets 35 and i call.

River is the 5c. I check, he bets 85?

I can give the results now because they are meaningless, I folded; he didnt show.

cardshark202

Yeah it seems fine to me. Don't see any other way to play it. Even though his high AF would tempt me to call the river.

mdwexford

Fold

kryogen

seems fine, i think i may have led the turn again though, maybe....and tried to keep control of betting,and the pot size, would have chucked it in the muck if he raised the turnthe check call the river if its cheap enough...

i am tired though so im probably not thinking straight, ill check back in the morning and edit if necessary lol

Hectorjelly

If I lead the turn several bad things happen. Firstly he may fold lower flush draws which is an absolute catasrophe. Second I am no longer betting for value as if he calls with a made hand he will nearly always have me beat. Thirdly if he has a set or a straight he will probably raise, and I lose the chance to hit a flush. By checking I also induce action from worse hands. On the plus size I keep control of the betting (which isnt much of a plus considering he is likely to raise better hands) and wont get bluffed.

BuChan

i'd call here against most people, if the villian was extremely tight i might fold.

Hectorjelly

BuChan wrote:

i'd call here against most people, if the villian was extremely tight i might fold.

you know exactly how tight he is..23/17

Also his tightness doesn't really effect things, his aggression is much more important

NeoSlicerZ

His AF tempts me to call, is he's capable of floating, i'd call.

mrflash

Fold for me. The hand is not good enough to call with, too many hands have you beat including a better ace.

spectre

A major leak in my game is the fact that I have a habit of calling these rivers

fuzzbox

well played

dvdfan

I think a call here is fine, i just cant see many hands played that way that beat us and as you said checking induces a bet from weaker hands.

I'll fire a third barrell here alot in villains shoes because hell sense weakness and what hand here 2 pair or better would lead turn and check call the turn on a draw heavy board (You said yourself thats one of the reasons why you dont want to lead the turn in case he has a hand that raises you), so he should be putting you on a draw or a weak 1 pair hand and so hes bet will take down the pot enough of the time to make it profitable now that the flush draw has missed and the straight draw is unlikely.

For this reason i would find a call on the river getting odds of 2.5/1 and I also think you can lead the river here with a thin value bet some of the time as he might suspect a missed FD and call with a hand like TT or smaller PP here often enough for that to be profitable too as giving play i think a PP is much more likely than AK-AJ the way things played out.

HeeHawsCantona

I think the main dangers are A9 and A4suited. Its probably a good fold but I might call here.

dvdfan

HeeHawsCantona wrote:

I think the main dangers are A9 and A4suited. Its probably a good fold but I might call here.

Dont think a 23/17 player is flat calling a raise from a tight player in early position that often at all with A9 or A4, probably closer to never.

Hectorjelly

dvdfan wrote:

I'll fire a third barrell here alot in villains shoes because hell sense weakness and what hand here 2 pair or better would lead turn and check call the turn on a draw heavy board (You said yourself thats one of the reasons why you dont want to lead the turn in case he has a hand that raises you), so he should be putting you on a draw or a weak 1 pair hand and so hes bet will take down the pot enough of the time to make it profitable now that the flush draw has missed and the straight draw is unlikely.

For this reason i would find a call on the river getting odds of 2.5/1 and I also think you can lead the river here with a thin value bet some of the time as he might suspect a missed FD and call with a hand like TT or smaller PP here often enough for that to be profitable too as giving play i think a PP is much more likely than AK-AJ the way things played out.

Good analyis, but remember I bet the flop and he called, what hand can he have that thinks its best on the flop but he decides to turn it into a bluff on the turn and river?

Van Dice

Yeah you are beat here almost always, you beat a missed fl draw but people generally are likely to check behind on the turn with that, and his bet-sizing doesn't look consistent with a draw. Presence of idiot makes it a lot more likely he smooth-called flop with a set

dvdfan

Hectorjelly wrote:

Good analyis, but remember I bet the flop and he called, what hand can he have that thinks its best on the flop but he decides to turn it into a bluff on the turn and river?

He may well have a small PP here, its a dry flop so hed expect you to cbet here, c/raising isnt a good move by him so he may be just floating and after your turn check he may be following through when you show weakness.

I cant argue that your not beaten here a good percentage of the time just that your line may have induced a weaker hand to try and take the pot. As ive said i often bet this river when someone cbets and check/calls turn on drawy boards because alot of the time their in check/fold mode and its free money if they dont hit by the river, even if you have TT here your line tells me i might be able to get you off it.

So im wondering what hand we have the villain on here that we think were behind to, cant see the set giving 2 opponents a cheap look at the turn with diamonds on the flop (Stack Sizes are important here what were they?), 2 pair doesent fit hes range (although we could say the same about your range) you would expect him to 3bet JJ+ and AK, would he flat call with AQ-AJ? and if so would he call the flop bet, youd expect him to fold A2-A9 so i can see 44,66-88 And TT which all could play the hand like this and that we are ahead of. Of course we cant rely on the opponent to think like this but giving the information i think PP are the most likely hands here, AT+ are the least likely and a set is somewhere in between.

Samba

Hectorjelly wrote:

If I lead the turn several bad things happen. Firstly he may fold lower flush draws which is an absolute catasrophe. Second I am no longer betting for value as if he calls with a made hand he will nearly always have me beat. Thirdly if he has a set or a straight he will probably raise, and I lose the chance to hit a flush. By checking I also induce action from worse hands. On the plus size I keep control of the betting (which isnt much of a plus considering he is likely to raise better hands) and wont get bluffed.

I really like the reasons for checking and i'll do the same quite often in this spot.

Do you think that by checking we hand him the green flag to a certain extent?

A very good player will have two barrels in his gun ready to fire at weakness.

Granted in this example his line looks very strong, especially considering the long pause on the flop, then again perhaps he simply had numerous decisions on other tables...that's the difficulty that information.


I fold this too but I would interested in hearing your thoughts on the possible down side of checking the turn.

Shortstack

Not playing much two card chicken at the moment but if I am the villian:

I call your raise with AJ+, KQs & any pair plus most suited connectors.
Sometimes I re-raise with 88+ AQ+ but not always.

I call post flop with AQ+ and suited diamond hands and any pairs and 4x5x.
I will raise some of the time with most of the above but more likely with hands that have completely missed or hit really big.

If you check the turn then I bet with any of above and same goes if you check the river.

Does this make your decision to fold better or worse? (also are my plays bad?)

pok3rplaya

no

dvdfan

Shortstack wrote:

Not playing much two card chicken at the moment but if I am the villian:

I call your raise with AJ+, KQs & any pair plus most suited connectors.
Sometimes I re-raise with 88+ AQ+ but not always.

I call post flop with AQ+ and suited diamond hands and any pairs and 4x5x.

Yeah i guess this would be accurate enough for a typical tight aggressive, i dont play $1/$2 but generally if someone raises and especially from early position im either folding or 3betting against a tight and aggressive player with AT-AK and KQs and i generally dont call with suited connectors in early position unless im a bit deeper than 100bb or its a multiway pot but im sure at the higher levels you need to mix it more against regulars so that might leave my range in the last post not so accurate.

Also i agree with suited diamonds you call that flop but theyre not likely to lead the turn in position so i ruled that out.

On calling with AQ+ i generally ditch this hand in position on that flop or raise it against a serial cbetter but im less likely to raise on a FD board so i would fold this a high percentage of the time. Is this bad, should i be calling more often and if so is it with the intention to float or hit one of my outs or a bit of both??

RedJoker

dvdfan wrote:

Also i agree with suited diamonds you call that flop but theyre not likely to lead the turn in position so i ruled that out.

It's possible that if he had diamonds he would call the flop with the draw and turn his hand into a float by semi bluffing the turn.

From his point of view it appears you've given up on the hand, so trying to win the pot without the need to hit would be an ok play. Obv there's a case for taking the free card too.

Captain Tom

i play it the same.

Samba

Mmm,

I suppose trying to pick off a bluff against this villain will not be profitable, we simply have to let them outplay us (if that is the case) some of the time.