ruling question

pumpdaddy

while playin 1-2 cash recently this suitation came up !

raise in early position 12, re raise in middle position 55, all in in late to 67 then last to act trys to isolate all in for 150 !! this obviously cannot happen because it is an under raise from 55 to 67 total !! there was quite a dispute an last to act finally ended up mucking his hand !!


can i get confirmation of this please !! td did not know the ruling and we (players on table resolved it) dealer took no action !!


thank you

Lplate

Under raise only applies to a player that has already acted. If the player trying to reraise has not yet acted he can reraise. If he has he can only call.

Cuban Son

Early position player (the one that has made it 12) can has the option to call the 67 or to raise again. The player that has made it 55 can only call.

Ace2007

Cuban Son wrote:

Early position player (the one that has made it 12) can has the option to call the 67 or to raise again. The player that has made it 55 can only call.

.

Van Dice

Cuban Son wrote:

Early position player (the one that has made it 12) can has the option to call the 67 or to raise again. The player that has made it 55 can only call.

!!

Ace2007

pumpdaddy wrote:

! td did not know the ruling and we (players on table resolved it)

So basically what you mean is - he who shouted loudest(a collection of players on the table) gave the incorrect ruling...

JustMac

Hi All. This exact situation occurred recently in a local tournament. Is there any difference in the ruling if is a tournament as opposed to a cash table? Also I would appreciate it if those replying might put in some indication of the position they hold (ie. dealer in fitz, td local club etc) as I would like to print this off and show our local td. BTW I agree with the rulings given already by Cuban Son and others.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

If the player has not acted he is fully entitled to re raise , if he has made it 55 and it was riased to 67 then he cannot re raise and must only flat call with the under raise rule , the ruling was wrong in my opinion , He is fully entitled to protect his own interests in the hand having not acted yet, secondly he was allowed muck his hand after making it 150 so he should have had to put in the 67 with the wrong ruling pbeing made anyhow , seems a mess to me ......


Neill Kelly
Td
Big Slick Events

BIG-SLICK-POKER

JustMac wrote:

Hi All. This exact situation occurred recently in a local tournament. Is there any difference in the ruling if is a tournament as opposed to a cash table? Also I would appreciate it if those replying might put in some indication of the position they hold (ie. dealer in fitz, td local club etc) as I would like to print this off and show our local td. BTW I agree with the rulings given already by Cuban Son and others.

Rule is the exact same in cash and tourny

gigetheman

hey neill i bet the last all in had 2,7 suited and won with a flush:D

DeVore

You can only "reraise" if you have been correctly and fully raised.
You may always raise if you have not yet acted.

For simplicity lets say its 6 handed. A,B,C and D are UTG, +1, +2 and +3.

A bets 12.
B raises to 55
C reraises to 67
D's option are as normal, fold call raise since he hasnt had a chance to speak yet.

The blinds both fold for simplicity of explanation.


A has already been successfully raised by B so when its A's turn, regardless of what D does, he can fold, call or raise.

If D raises to 150 (as he is entitled to because he hasnt spoken yet) then he has successfully reraised B's raise and B will be free to do as he pleases when its his turn.

Lets say D calls and A calls, then B is locked to calling or folding.

If either A or D reraise, then B has been raised and is free to do as he pleases.

The simplest way to remember all of this is "you cant reraise if you havent been raised". An under-raise isnt considered a raise.

DeV.

JustMac

DeVore wrote:

You can only "reraise" if you have been correctly and fully raised.
You may always raise if you have not yet acted.

For simplicity lets say its 6 handed. A,B,C and D are UTG, +1, +2 and +3.

A bets 12.
B raises to 55
C reraises to 67
D's option are as normal, fold call raise since he hasnt had a chance to speak yet.

The blinds both fold for simplicity of explanation.


A has already been successfully raised by B so when its A's turn, regardless of what D does, he can fold, call or raise.

If D raises to 150 (as he is entitled to because he hasnt spoken yet) then he has successfully reraised B's raise and B will be free to do as he pleases when its his turn.

Lets say D calls and A calls, then B is locked to calling or folding.

If either A or D reraise, then B has been raised and is free to do as he pleases.

The simplest way to remember all of this is "you cant reraise if you havent been raised". An under-raise isnt considered a raise.

DeV.

Just one last clarification! In the example above if A just checks in the first instance (ie. he was intending a check raise) then can he raise once it gets back to him:

A checks
B raises to 55
C reraises to 67
D calls 67
A ?

My understanding is that he can call, fold or raise. Is this correct?

mdwexford

^ Yes.

Must be shocking Td's and dealers involved in the OP if they dont know simple rules like that, actually must be bad players as well if none of them knew either.

DeVore

JustMac, apply the underlying rule: Has he been fully and properly raised (in this instance a bet is considered a raise). So the answer is yes and can do as he pleases.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

mdwexford wrote:

^ Yes.

Must be shocking Td's and dealers involved in the OP if they dont know simple rules like that, actually must be bad players as well if none of them knew either.

tribeca had it wrong for years

CelticPhantom

Can you clarify the situation if someone under-raises in last position, please?

For simplicity lets say its 6 handed. A,B,C, D, E and F are UTG, +1, +2 and +3, SB and BB.

A folds
B folds
C folds
D bets 12.
E raises to 55
F reraises to 67 (under-raise all in)

Do we say that D has been successfully raised by E, and so can successfully reraise? If so is his min. reraise based on the raise from 12 to 55 (E), or from 12 to 67 (F)?

Or do we say that D can only fold/call since F put in an under-raise?

Cuban Son

CelticPhantom wrote:

Can you clarify the situation if someone under-raises in last position, please?

For simplicity lets say its 6 handed. A,B,C, D, E and F are UTG, +1, +2 and +3, SB and BB.

A folds
B folds
C folds
D bets 12.
E raises to 55
F reraises to 67 (under-raise all in)

Do we say that D has been successfully raised by E, and so can successfully reraise? If so is his min. reraise based on the raise from 12 to 55 (E), or from 12 to 67 (F)?

Or do we say that D can only fold/call since F put in an under-raise?

D hasn't been under raised by F.
E has been under raised by F.
D has been raised by E.
D is free to reraise.