Would Baldonnel be a good second airport?

Mailman

This airport seems to have a lot to recommend it.
It it is very close to the Metro Citywest extension which leads straight in to town. That metro line intersects with proposed Metro West serving most of the west of the country.
It is on the N3 which is accessible to most of South Lenister.
Isn't stuck in the middle of a residential area.
The runways are long enough to take 737 sized air craft which would serve most of Europe.

What counts against Baldonnell other than Government Lethargy?

I'd like to see it becoming a shared civilian airport in exchange for the Air Corp getting proper funding.

Chris_533976

Any proposed new airport should be somewhere between the M4 and M7, with rail spurs from the Dublin-Cork/Limerick and Dublin - Galway etc lines.

Mailman

Chris_533976 wrote:

Any proposed new airport should be somewhere between the M4 and M7, with rail spurs from the Dublin-Cork/Limerick and Dublin - Galway etc lines.

That'd be Baldonnell then! The distance to Adamstown railway station is very short.

Saruman

Was this not proposed years ago anyway?

Just like Ryanair said they wouuld build a second airport but both were turned down in favor of T2.

Tabnabs

Problem is, no one's interested in it for civilian use (Ryanair have declared this publicly) and besides, who's going to fork out the millions to get it up to passenger handling capacity and infrastructure? Me and you, the taxpayer!

the_syco

Eh, no. It's a great place for a military airport, and if it was changed to a civilian, where nearby Dublin would the military reloacte their airport to?

jdivision

Relocate it to Gormanstown?

Mailman

Military and Civilian co-exist elsewhere - Aldergrove and Goa for example

If Dermot Desmond can buy an Airport which can't take any planes larger than an Airbus 318 for about 35m euro and sell it for 1.2 billion there must be a market out there for alternate airports in Capital cities.

bk

While I don't know if Baldonnell would make for a good civilian airport, I certainly wouldn't see any problem with it being a shared military / civilian airport.

It is not like the air corps are flying F22 Raptors, Apache attack helicopters and a load of C-130 transports out of it

The air corps operate mostly helicopters, a few small turbo prop planes and a few small commercial jets and one Casa. Not all that different from what you see at the peripherals of most airports (flight schools, rental helicopters, etc.).

Davidth88

I think this is a great idea, there is no reason at all why civilian and military traffic can't co-exit.

RAF Northolt is the main military airfield in London, it is uses a lot by Biz-jets etc ( even back in the 60's a TWA 707 landed there by accident ). It's use is VERY similar to Casement, 32 Sq ( I think ) is based there and flies the exec jets for the British Gmvt/Royal Family.

It is also used a lot by visiting airforces , I have see nearly all the NATO countries there at some time or another.

How the air traffic would co-exit with DUB is another matter ???

Local transport links could be built reasonably easily , why not a monorail link like Newark from Adamstown ??

Skyhater

Mailman wrote:

.....That metro line intersects with proposed Metro West serving most of the west of the country.
It is on the N3 which is accessible to most of South Lenister......

I think you need a refresher course in Geography.
1) Metro West will serve most of West Dublin, not the west of the country! (Ireland does exist outside Dublin)
2) Baldonnell is nowhere near the N3 (which serves north-west Lenster), the N7 is the closest national road.

Back onto the point.... Ryanair have done a U-turn on Baldonnell over the years. I can remember them proposing it as Dublin's second airport a few years back. They were going to build the public terminal building. But that was before they started the war with FF/PD's.
Now they say Dublin needs only one Airport and new Low Cost Terminal there run by Ryanair.

Mailman

[QUOTE=Skyhater
1) Metro West will serve most of West Dublin, not the west of the country! (Ireland does exist outside Dublin)
2) Baldonnell is nowhere near the N3 (which serves north-west Lenster), the N7 is the closest national road.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know about Metro West. It will pass my front door on it's windey way up to Dublin Airport. If you look at a map, which I did (so no need for refresher course), you'll see that the trains to the west of the country pass near by.
I never said the airport would serve north-west Leinster so it was a slip. I live beside the N3 and pass over the N7 to get to work so know which is which.

the_syco

Sure, the aircraft could go side by side, but what about the terminal.

The airport in Goa is the only one in the country, I think. Also, the civilian side only runs 1pm to 6pm. So thats that option gone down the toilet.

Also, Aldergrove is separate from the Belfast Airport. It's next to it, but not the same airport.

Mailman

the_syco wrote:

Sure, the aircraft could go side by side, but what about the terminal.

The airport in Goa is the only one in the country, I think. Also, the civilian side only runs 1pm to 6pm. So thats that option gone down the toilet.

Also, Aldergrove is separate from the Belfast Airport. It's next to it, but not the same airport.

Where? This has been discussed elsewhere on boards and beyond by Air Corp associates and civilians and no-one ever said it was impossible to put a terminal in place.
London city airport and others operate weekdays only and only because they are in populated areas. Not an issue here and no jets need to scramble as we don't have any fighter airplanes.
cost of maintaining fire tenders can be transferred from air corp to civilian so cost saving to state there.
Only issue from an air corp point of view is do the get any cash benefit for investment in people and resources on the back of it - they should!

joolsveer

Will Belfast Airport not become Dublin's defacto second airport? Surely when the M1/A1 is developed further it will become even more accessible to those of us north of the Liffey.

It amuses me to hear that the crowd who have proven that they cannot run Dublin Airport at the moment are now given permission to extend it and make a bigger mess.

Vested interests and Government will continue to block anyone this side of the border competing with the slumlike Dublin Airport so I don't see any hope for the use of Baldonnel.

Davidth88

Ok, just as a counter argument

You live in Newcastle, or Clondulkin ..... someone says .. oh lets build a nice international airport on your doorstep.... whats your reaction

Also until recently the local TD was a powerful member of the cabinet ( her political clout has dimished somewhat since the last election I would say )

In theory it is a great idea , in the real world , it will never happen ( mores the shame )

Skyhater

Mailman wrote:

Yes, I know about Metro West. It will pass my front door on it's windey way up to Dublin Airport. If you look at a map, which I did (so no need for refresher course), you'll see that the trains to the west of the country pass near by.
I never said the airport would serve north-west Leinster so it was a slip. I live beside the N3 and pass over the N7 to get to work so know which is which.

Look.... maybe it was the phrasing that was wrong and maybe you meant to type N7 and not N3.... but Baldonnell is not Beside the N3 and the Metro Line will connect with rail lines leading to the west of the country.

Calina

This is not really the way to approach the issue. The question is: does Dublin need two airports or one?

The question of a second airport only arises because the current one is overcrowded and unsuited to the numbers using it.

A more salient solution would be to build a new airport designed to handle double the current level of traffic and close the existing airport. However, no governent in the short term is likely to do this because:

1) North County Dublin will be up in arms about the loss of jobs
2) Other possible locations are increasingly built up due to the absence of integrated residential planning for the Dublin region as a whole
3) if you could find a suitable location (and I concur with between M7 and M4), the locals would be up in arms about aircraft noise.
4) there is no point in doing it without immediately integrating it properly with surface public transport options. As our record on this front is abysmal to say the least, I can't see it happening.
5) anyway it'd cost a fortune and given what happened Cork, the likelihood is that it would not been seen as investment vital to national infrastructure (which in my view it would be), and be heavily disadvantaged by a load of debt to start with.

Dublin is not, populationwise, a big city. Other swathes of the country are more than adequately served by airports in all directions, better, even, than by rail. For an example of how to build an airport which handles a significant amount of passenger traffic it's worth looking at Helsinki - which, incidentally, has a far bigger level of domestic travel than Dublin has - or possibly Hong Kong.

It is my opinion that Dublin does not need two airports; it just needs a properly built and designed primary airport.

BendiBus

Dublin airport is only of a modest size in international terms (about 22m passengers per annum). It currently has only a single main runway and a single terminal. We're now post Celcit Tiger so future air traffic growth is likely to be slower than the past decade.

Dublin Airport is on the motorway network and will be on a rail 'network' within a few years all being well.

There is loads of room for expansion.

I see no need whatsoever to have 2 airports for Dublin. I can't see any real advantage.

As Calina says, we just need 1 decent airport. That can be delivered at the current airport location.

steve-o

On top of the questionable need for a second airport, Baldonnel is not a great location for an airport. The main approach (from the east or north-east) would be over densly populated areas of the city. Nearby higher ground has also safety implications.

Victor

Dublin has:

* Dublin Airport (Collinstown) - scheduled services, freight and some general aviation (light aircraft, private flights, helicopters)
* Weston - general aviation
* Baldonnel - military use

With T2 and the second runway, Dublin Airport is perfectly big enought to deal with the growth in scheduled services. Not until you pass 40m PA would I expect it make sense to de-intergrate some services.

Weston is too small for scheduled services.

In reality, Baldonnel needs a new main runway, possibly can't fit a parallel runway and hte cross runway is too short.

It might have made sense to move all general aviation toa single site before Weston was expanded, but not anymore.

therecklessone

Mansfield should move his bizjet business to Baldonnel, pay for a total overhaul of the failities there and operate a dual use facility with the Air Corps. If enough money was poured into it, then the bizjet traffic into Dublin could be transferred across freeing up capacity at Dublin.

Weston could revert to a VFR aerodrome, removing some of the restrictions currently placed on GA at the field (the requirement for a functioning mode C transponder to operate in the Weston AOR for example) Mansfield could share the costs of ATC at Baldonnel, which might go some way towards addressing staff shortages at Baldonnel.

Capt'n Midnight

Mailman wrote:

Military and Civilian co-exist elsewhere - Aldergrove and Goa for example

and Pisa

Then again RyanAir have landed at the military airport in Derry.

the_syco

Weston Airport would probably allow 747's if it could I'm unsure what is the current largest plane, as they've been given a slap on the wrists I think for bringing in planes that are too big once or twice. But the locals (see top of the picture) would complain, mainly the ones where the planes fly over. Saying that, not to long ago, planes were skipping immigration at Dublin Airport and flying direct to WA.

Click the images at...

http://gallery.ufimtsev.info/Ireland_Dublin_Weston_Airport/IMG_0190 (WA is to the right of the lake)

http://gallery.ufimtsev.info/Ireland_Dublin_Weston_Airport/IMG_0188 (WA is above the lake)

...and they'll enlarge, for a better picture.

Also good for filming WW1 films at:D:cool:

Victor

the_syco wrote:

The airport in Goa is the only one in the country, I think. Also, the civilian side only runs 1pm to 6pm. So thats that option gone down the toilet.

Goa is part of India. http://www.maps-india.com/india/india-map/india-tourist-map.gif

Also, Aldergrove is separate from the Belfast Airport. It's next to it, but not the same airport.

Just a different part, same runway. the is a disused WWII airfield nearby at Nutts Corner.

BrianD

Mailman wrote:

This airport seems to have a lot to recommend it.
It it is very close to the Metro Citywest extension which leads straight in to town. That metro line intersects with proposed Metro West serving most of the west of the country.
It is on the N3 which is accessible to most of South Lenister.
Isn't stuck in the middle of a residential area.
The runways are long enough to take 737 sized air craft which would serve most of Europe.

What counts against Baldonnell other than Government Lethargy?

I'd like to see it becoming a shared civilian airport in exchange for the Air Corp getting proper funding.

Baldonnell is a military airfield and has very little to offer Dublin now or the future.

There is absolutely zero need for a second airport in Dublin and expamsion at the existing airport is the only and best way foward.

Is a second airport was required a greenfield site would probably be better than tinkering about with Baldonnell.

So there's no Government lethargy - they are just not wasting time on a bad proposition.

BTW - Baldonnell is nowhere near the N3 (it's actually just off the N7) and it is beside densely populated surburbs on all sides with the exception of the west. All of the development is sufficiently close to the airfield to be directly affected by aircraft noise.

jimmycrackcorm

BrianD wrote:

Baldonnell is a military airfield and has very little to offer Dublin now or the future.

There is absolutely zero need for a second airport in Dublin and expamsion at the existing airport is the only and best way foward.

Is a second airport was required a greenfield site would probably be better than tinkering about with Baldonnell.

So there's no Government lethargy - they are just not wasting time on a bad proposition.

BTW - Baldonnell is nowhere near the N3 (it's actually just off the N7) and it is beside densely populated surburbs on all sides with the exception of the west. All of the development is sufficiently close to the airfield to be directly affected by aircraft noise.

A second airport is much better for many reasons which are demonstrated amply if you fly into any smaller airports. Everything from parking access to quicker security queues to short walks to the gate.

Calina

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

A second airport is much better for many reasons which are demonstrated amply if you fly into any smaller airports. Everything from parking access to quicker security queues to short walks to the gate.

The shortest security queues I have experienced are those in CDG. It is not the numbers which is the problem, it is how the issue is approached. In CDG they appear to have some sort of idea that cramming everyone in together into bottlenecks is probably not such a good idea and as a result, they have faster moving/shorter queues. It also has the shortest walks to the gates in T2 that I know in any airport at all.

In other words, the question of security and gatewalks is not the central issue here.

A second airport is a poor use of resources when an efficient and well designed primary airport would offer everything you offer as advantages to having two airports. The truth is Dublin Airport has not really ever been designed properly - it has been added to on an ad hoc basis. I remain to be convinced that T2 is really the way to go and I'm not at all impressed by Pier D either.

Dublin Airport has not been the subject of very much long term planning at all and that is why it is the way it is. The fact that it is that way is not, however, a support for a second airport, it is a support for doing it properly from here on out. Since we can't run the first one, and I wouldn't trust Ryanair to build anything other than a prefab, and we skimped on the jetways in Cork, my view is that we'd wind up with two airports with the same issues as Dublin Airport has now and be worse off for our troubles.

In other words, before we go building another airport, we should look at the one we've got first and figure out why it's such a mess for what is not horrendously high traffic throughput.

Winters

I could not agree with you more Calina. The planning of Dublin Airport in the last 25 years has been appalling and in total disregard to the development of similiar growth sized airports throughout the world.

This however should not mean that we should start another mess. There is enough land at Dublin airport to cater for the needs of the Leinster region.

A second terminal needs to be built but the currently designed T2 is wrongly situated, poorly laid out and is a complete waste of money in that sense.

Pier D should be running North-South and not East-West as it is now. The long term proposals look like the DAA aim to continue the poor planning that makes Dublin Aiport a nightmare for passengers.

FunkyDa

How about the Air Corps flying operations(the army camp being left in place) relocating to Dublin Airport(as previously stated, military and civilian facilities coexist at numerous airports)? The redundant airfield could then be sold to the highest bidder, and redeveloped as a new town(like Adamstown). The money raised could then be spent on improving Dublin Airport.