Tournie Hand: Had me very confused!

TommyGunne

Fitz €50 Double chance

Hero: 5,000 chips
Villain: circa 3,000

My first hand of the tournie. I'm late.

blinds 25-25

Hero is BB, Villain SB. Button is a known decent TAG.

UTG limps, Button limps. Villain checks. I look down at 6c7h.

I check.

Flop 5d6h7d.

SB checks.
I bet 150.
UTG folds.
Button folds.
SB check raises to 600.
Hero?????

Should i reraise/fold/call here considering no reads?

I call.
Pot 1300.

Turn: 2s

SB checks again.
I think for a while and bet 900.
SB CRAI.

Hero??????

Any advice would be appreciated. I just can't seem to make sense of the action.

Edit: This player was young, sober, and when talking to Button when i sat down let on that he dealt for a living.
Edit: Dealt cards that is.

5starpool

On that flop, when he CR's you I shove and expect to see 78/68/58/57/A7 a lot here. Sometimes you will see a set or made straight as well, but I think often enough you will see something weird in this tourney to justify sticking with it.

As played though the second CR is a bit odd. Once you call the turn, you should try to get to showdown cheaply if you can and check behind on the turn. It looks like you really should be behind here, but at times there are so many odd players in these tournies that you never know.

ollyk1

Did you expect him to call and leave half his stack in there and fold the river? What was the plan when you bet 900 on the turn?

Has he taken his double chance?

If he still has a double chance I just call and expect to see all sorts of hands some of which I'm currently beating.

TommyGunne

He has not taken his double chance.

Originally posted by Ollyk1
Did you expect him to call and leave half his stack in there and fold the river? What was the plan when you bet 900 on the turn?

Plan was not to let any free cards peel off. Would you advocate bet more or less? Surely i'm not checking?

5starpool

TommyGunne wrote:

He has not taken his double chance.



Plan was not to let any free cards peel off. Would you advocate bet more or less? Surely i'm not checking?

Betting to fold to a shove here isn't a great idea. Also, checking in this situation is far from terrible, as you have a strong holding, but far from the nuts.

grey_abbey

His cr on the turn is unnorthodoxed alright. A set or a worse 2 pair isn't checkin the turn with that scary a board. Think you're lookin at made straight or combo draw at best. He may have cr'ed his str8 on the turn due to the over-protective look of your flop bet, thus discounting a flush draw.

Would like to know if he has his total stack in play or still has his 2nd half to come. Lot of guys more likely to gamble in double chance when they only take half their stack.

At another ~1475 to call into 3000+, i prob hope for the best in this spot and call depending on the vibe im getting from him.

ollyk1

TommyGunne wrote:

He has not taken his double chance.



Plan was not to let any free cards peel off. Would you advocate bet more or less? Surely i'm not checking?

My point Tommy is once I bet 900 I know I'm calling 1500 more to win 6.2k (4.7k plus my 1.5k call). My hand only has to be good 25% of the time. Once you bet the 900 you should have your mind made up not agonising over some jedi read getting 3/1! As played I like the 900 bet if your decision is that you are calling an all-in. If you decide before you bet the 900 that you are folding to an all-in I'd prefer if you checked behind to be honest (I'm not advocating this in general but my point is you make your mind up before you bet the 900).

Personally I'd be taking Dom's line and rejamming on the flop as it's a hugely draw heavy board and I'm not getting away from top two pair in that tournie....

The guy could have a pair and a straight draw or a flush draw or a smaller two pair or he could have a set or a straight.

As played I call. Especially since the turn is a brick.

Van Dice

TommyGunne wrote:

SB checks again.
I think for a while and bet 900.
SB CRAI.

Hero??????

As played you are instacalling here

TommyGunne wrote:

Edit: This player was young, sober, and when talking to Button when i sat down let on that he dealt for a living.
Edit: Dealt cards that is.

lol

grey_abbey

Sorry, didn't see your 2nd post...call

Theresalwaysone

Meh, I call and see a combo draw of sorts. The made straight would maybe check raise the flop but hardly the turn too, thats not only an unusual line but also looks very strong to any newbie players. We know your not a newbie but he doesnt.

I also cant see a set doing this, if he deals for a living a reasonable assumption is that he has a basic understanding of the game and knows what a value bet is and having flopped a set, check raising the flop is standard enough but not the turn, this early in the tourney and with half his stack in play I am looking at a worse two pair or combo draw. Call.

TommyGunne

5k includes my double chance taken already.

Originall posted by ollyk1
My point Tommy is once I bet 900 I know I'm calling 1500 more to win 6.2k (4.7k plus my 1.5k call). My hand only has to be good 25% of the time. Once you bet the 900 you should have your mind made up not agonising over some jedi read getting 3/1! As played I like the 900 bet if your decision is that you are calling an all-in. If you decide before you bet the 900 that you are folding to an all-in I'd prefer if you checked behind to be honest (I'm not advocating this in general but my point is you make your mind up before you bet the 900).

I like that line of thought. To be honest i was more than happy taking down a pot right now and pushing out most draws that he could be playing, rather than risking 3/5ths of my stack in a tournie that has always seemed piss poor.

I just couldn't put any real range on him here.

connie147

Tough one.But I cant put him on a made straight or a set.If he has either, he's surely not checking that dangerous flop to 3 opponnents? I'm also for jamming the flop here as I reckon from the way he played it, he's on some type of draw. Maybe 4/5-4/6-4/7-6/8-7/8-6d/Ad with a combo flush draw possible as well. I'm definately not laying down and if I got as far as the turn in the way you did,I think a push is the best option when he checks.(I still have him on a drawing hand and I wanna price him out).
Its tougher when you have no reads on villians play.What does a C/R on the flop followed by a check on the turn mean?Is he checking a made straight to you on the turn on that board?

I'd like to know the results!!

Theresalwaysone

A6diamonds

DeadParrot

A4d

kmick

I think all these threads should have a poll raise/call/fold. It would make it easier to see peoples calls for the lazy minded like myself.

Theresalwaysone

DeadParrot wrote:

A4d

Makes even more sense

bops

78

just push when c/r'd on the flop - save all the fuss

mdwexford

Defo shove flop when he makes it 600.

After check raising the turn i think he has a straight here more often than not but as played you're priced in to call. A check behind on the turn is much better.

5starpool

mdwexford wrote:

Defo shove flop when he makes it 600.

After check raising the turn i think he has a straight here more often than not but as played you're priced in to call. A check behind on the turn is much better.

He is only currently priced in due to the nature of a lot of the players in these games. He is getting nowhere near the right price if most of the time he is against a set or better.

grey_abbey

You're approx never against a set/two pair in this situation imho...big draw or str8.

Hunch is he had big draw and wanted you the push on flop so he could get it in as a fav and gamble with his first half stack...Checked turn to try and get to river cheap, then said, "fcuk it lets gamble,they dont call it double chance for nowt" when u bet...and proceeded to hit river

that or a str8

mdwexford

5starpool wrote:

He is only currently priced in due to the nature of a lot of the players in these games. He is getting nowhere near the right price if most of the time he is against a set or better.

Thats my point, due to having no reads there is a chance he has a combo draw or an overpair or is bluffing, whether that chance is enough to make this call profitable is debatable. Against a decent player we are almost always beaten here though.

Captain Tom

get it in on the flop. problem solved.

McW

To be honest I think the major mistake in this hand is overbetting the pot on the flop. You are allowing him to play a bigger pot than should be allowed when you are behind, and he folds just as easily when you are ahead or when he has something very weak. It is almost never right to overbet the pot to fold out flush/straight draws and it is especially wrong when they might be there already! This overbet led to the chain reaction where you are playing a 240 bb pot with a mediocre hand on a board that could have you drawing real thin.

Also either shove flop or check turn behind – as played you have to call – pot odds etc etc - admittedly the action is very weird and he could be on some muppet draw bluff – although I think you are being shown a straight or set a surprising amount of the time here.

I really hate getting into these situations this early in a tourney – theres just no need. If it was more deep stacked I would be playing even more cautiously

kryogen

it looks like a combo draw,and he knows he cant flat call and fold so hes shoving.... why exactly did u bet the turn if you were not going to insta call phil hellmuth style all in!!!!!

to be honest its pretty standard as played, call..... no other option

phantom_lord

shove flop/check turn, call now.

Hectorjelly

anytime you get double check raised in a single hand and dont know what to do either time you should slap yourself in the face

5starpool

McW wrote:

To be honest I think the major mistake in this hand is overbetting the pot on the flop. You are allowing him to play a bigger pot than should be allowed when you are behind, and he folds just as easily when you are ahead or when he has something very weak. It is almost never right to overbet the pot to fold out flush/straight draws and it is especially wrong when they might be there already! This overbet led to the chain reaction where you are playing a 240 bb pot with a mediocre hand on a board that could have you drawing real thin.

He bet 150 into a pot of 125, hardly the worst sin in the world.

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

anytime you get double check raised in a single hand and dont know what to do either time you should slap yourself in the face

excellent

grey_abbey

5starpool wrote:

He bet 150 into a pot of 125, hardly the worst sin in the world.

Dont think its major sin either but I think it helps villian to define your hand when you overbet the pot. Think bet of 85 into pot of 100 is better. There's at least the possibility that you're disguising a draw then...Here, he has you on a made hand for def and he's reraised you twice. Most people will discount a flush draw with bet of 150 into 100. Maybe thats why he played str8 slowly
OOP early in tourney that you think you have edge in, Im not builing big pot on scary boards like that.

5starpool

grey_abbey wrote:

Dont think its major sin either but I think it helps villian to define your hand when you overbet the pot. Think bet of 85 into pot of 100 is better. There's at least the possibility that you're disguising a draw then...Here, he has you on a made hand for def and he's reraised you twice. Most people will discount a flush draw with bet of 150 into 100. Maybe thats why he played str8 slowly
OOP early in tourney that you think you have edge in, Im not builing big pot on scary boards like that.

This is a live game in the Fitz. Even allowing for the fact that you cannot bet 85 (25 is the smallest chip denomination), betting anything from 50-200 would be viewed in the same light by a lage number of players there, and I don't think 150 'defined' his hand any differently than if he bet 100. In general I agree that pot control is very important, but in this situation, as HJ pointed out, there is no plan for the hand in place at all it seems, never mind any thoughts of pot control.

McW

The key point here is that in the early levels of tournaments that are any way deep stacked it is OK to lose a hand like this when you are ahead on the flop– you have only lost 4 big blinds. It is all about setting up situations to get chips and there will be many more – the most important of which is stealing from weak players later on.

Lets examine what happens if we check or bet 75/100 on the flop – assuming he bets or raises you now both have big stacks behind. He can now make 2 mistakes which you can exploit:
1 Poor players will lose more than they should with made straights/flushes when the board pairs.
2 Their bluffs will be easier to pick off when they have a missed draw.

Keeping the pot small on the flop is the key to exploiting these weakness. Building the pot on the flop prevents you from doing this and just means you must make a decision as to whether you are ahead or behind now – and your equity against his range is not fantastic – dead to sets and if you are ahead he has outs. By building the pot for him I believe we are surrendering our edge to the weaker player – making his decisions easy and yours both tough and close.

5starpool wrote:

This is a live game in the Fitz. Even allowing for the fact that you cannot bet 85 (25 is the smallest chip denomination), betting anything from 50-200 would be viewed in the same light by a lage number of players there, and I don't think 150 'defined' his hand any differently than if he bet 100. In general I agree that pot control is very important, but in this situation, as HJ pointed out, there is no plan for the hand in place at all it seems, never mind any thoughts of pot control.

I don’t think this is an issue of pot control. The pot is more or less empty for practical purposes. This is an issue of not building a pot for someone – not giving them the opportunity of winning a big pot when really they shouldn’t have it.

I also dont think it is all that relevant if a bet of 50-200 is "viewed" the same. What matters is what is mathematically right and allows you to best exploit their weaknesses later in the hand.

The decisions that have been most discussed in this hand, when the bets get very big, are actually very close in terms of EV- even though it doesn’t seem like it because they may cost you thousands of chips or your tournament life. It is very easy to dismiss a check, bet of 3bbs and 6bbs as being the “same thing” but in my experience it is getting these decisions right that determines your long term edge.

You don’t need to win 4 big blinds level 1. Concentrate on winning 4 big blinds on level 10, or 200 big blinds on level 1.

connie147

For those of you advocating a check behind on the turn as played,(and youve all agreed that op should have gone all-in on the flop over the c/r,), where is the advantage of ckecking behind here?
If he has the combo draw I suspect, do you want him to get a free card here? If a brick comes down,unless he,s gonna bluff at you, your getting no more off him.I dont agree that a check behind in this instance is the right play.

Oh and HJ, I laughed out loud for at least 5 mins after reading that post. Classic.:D

RoundTower

McW wrote:

Lets examine what happens if we check or bet 75/100 on the flop – assuming he bets or raises you now both have big stacks behind. He can now make 2 mistakes which you can exploit:
1 Poor players will lose more than they should with made straights/flushes when the board pairs.
2 Their bluffs will be easier to pick off when they have a missed draw.

Keeping the pot small on the flop is the key to exploiting these weakness. Building the pot on the flop prevents you from doing this

this is so results oriented, the flip side of this is when your big bets get called down on all streets by Ac2c.