Crown -price?

teflon

2 questions guys.
1)Can anyone recommend a good dentist in Dublin (north side) or city centre to do 2 crowns. I need two of my bottom front teeth capped and Ive had quotes of €900 and €750 each. Is that cheap? Seems expensive to me as I thought they were around €600ish.

2)Are there different types of caps? cheap ones and dear ones or does it just depend on what the dentist charges for crowns in his practice?

Any help appreciated. Wouldn't consider going abroad.

Teflon:D

Dimplesgirl

You can actually get it done in the dental hospital for only about 250

teflon

I just checked with them and they cant give me a price because it varies too much. They also said that there is a very long waiting list and it would be Nov before I could even be accessed... :eek:

teflon

Just back from a holiday in Turkey (folks have a place there) and I decided to get them done over there at a cost pf €418 (for the 2 crowns) Absolutely delighted and cannot recommend the place enough. Their dentistry is FAR more superior to ours www.uzmanlardental.com

Teflon

eth0_

Who are you to say it is 'far superior' to Irish dentistry? Are you a dentist? Cheaper does not equal better.

Big_G

Two lower incisor crowns? For E418? We'll see how long they last.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Well teflon good luck with your new crowns I hope they last a long time for you. Remember that all dentistry will fail in time and need replacement, unfortunatly lower front teeth are really small and when crowned the remaining tooth under the crown is prone to fracture. If anything goes wrong with these crowns I doubt you will be able to get them recrowned. I hardly ever crown lower front teeth if I can help it for this reason. A veneer is usually a better option.

As for the comment about turkish dentistry being far superior? How would you know, all you know is that you cant afford good quality irish dentistry nothing else. If however cost is your only concern, then I suppose you got what you wanted and deserve.

Again I hope all goes well for you.

teflon

Cairo Handsome Bait wrote:

Well teflon good luck with your new crowns I hope they last a long time for you. Remember that all dentistry will fail in time and need replacement, unfortunatly lower front teeth are really small and when crowned the remaining tooth under the crown is prone to fracture. If anything goes wrong with these crowns I doubt you will be able to get them recrowned. I hardly ever crown lower front teeth if I can help it for this reason. A veneer is usually a better option.

As for the comment about turkish dentistry being far superior? How would you know, all you know is that you cant afford good quality irish dentistry nothing else. If however cost is your only concern, then I suppose you got what you wanted and deserve.

Again I hope all goes well for you.

I have to say. I am surprised at the reaction here! I didnt know that Id hit such a raw nerve with dentists. It was actually an Irish dentist that suggested the crowns as the veneers I have had in the past have broken off twice. Was he not qualified enough to suggest this or are you more qualified? And as for not being able to afford to get them done here, what gave you that impression? Maybe I just didnt see the justification in paying the difference! Also, How come it takes a dentist here 3 weeks to make a porcelin crown whereas It only took 3 days over there? Its not the dentist himself that actually makes this crown is it, does he not send it away to be done? Now around the corner from where I live in Dublin is a dental studio that makes these dental crowns etc and to be honest, of the 4 people that I can see working there, only one is Irish. Does that mean that the rest of them are not as qualified as the Irish dentist???

The owner of the practice that I visited in Turkey actually performed my operation and as you can see here I think she is fairly qualified... http://www.pinarsenyilmaz.com/indexen.html

Positions:
2005-2006, Clinical Associate, University of Birmingham, Restorative Dentistry, UK.
2005-2006, Honorary Research Fellow, University of Birmingham, Restorative Dentistry and Biomaterials, UK.
2004-2005, Lecturer, Hacettepe University, Dental Technician School, Maxillafacial Prosthodontics, Turkey.
2004, Research Fellow, Albert-Ludwigs University, Prosthodontics, Germany.
2003-2005, Lecturer, Hacettepe University, Prosthodontics (Veneer Crowns), Turkey.
2003-2005, Clinical Lecturer, Hacettepe University, Prosthodontics, Maxillafacial Prosthodontics, Turkey.
2003, Research Fellow, Albert-Ludwigs University, Prosthodontics, Germany.
1999-2005, Clinical Dentist, Hacettepe University, Prosthodontics, Turkey.
1999-2005, Clinical Lecturer, Hacettepe University, Prosthodontics (Dental Anatomy and Physiology), Turkey.
1999-2005, Clinical Lecturer, Hacettepe University, Prosthodontics (Basic Crown and Bridge Work), Turkey.

Honours and Awards

2004, NATO Science Fellowship Programme, The Scientific and Technical Research Council of Turkey, TUBITAK. Award No: 581/1900.
2004, University of Hacettepe Research Foundation, PhD. Thesis Grant No: 0202201008.
2003-2005, Ph.D. thesis was sponsored by Vita Zähnfabrik (Bäd Shackingen, Germany) Ivoclar Vivadent (Schaan, Liechtenstein), Degussa Dental (Hanau, Germany).
1998, Awarded a place at the University of Hacettepe, Faculty of Dentistry by being in 1000 among 1 million applicants.

Anyway, I feel that I had to post this. All I was doing is giving other Boards members more options, and maybe I am wrong but is that not what these sites are for?? Perhaps one of the dentist members on here can explain to me why cosmetic dentistry is so expensive over here?

Big_G

My lab fee for two lower crowns would be E260. So out of the E418 that the Turkish lady charged, I would make E258. Out of the E258, nursing staff have to be paid, materials (temporary crown x2, impressions x2, gingival retraction cord x2, burs) need to be paid, light and heat, electricity. Would leave about E45 for about 2.5 - 3 hours work. ~E15 per hour. Just over double minimum wage. After tax, well...

So the answer to your question is the Turkish dentist has lower overheads such as lab fees (I would say a big chunk of the difference is this), wages for staff, and everything else. That is why Irish dentistry is expensive.

Apart from everything else, I wouldn't crown lower incisor teeth myself. Yes, your veneers may have repeatedly failed and crowning is the next logical step, but there is a difference between failure of a restoration and failure of a tooth. You can do something about a failed restoration, you can't do anything with a failed tooth (usually).

Anyway, this has been discussed about four billion times in these threads. Essentially, Ireland is expensive, dentistry is one of those things that costs money. In an ideal world, all healthcare would be free, but it costs money in reality.

IMO you are worse than the person who goes to Turkey because they can't afford Irish dentistry prices, you are the person who, through a lack of understanding decide to display contempt for Irish dentistry and go abroad, because in truth you begrudge the Irish dentist any monetary success because you don't understand what entitles them to be more successful than anyone else.

Let me enlighten you; to be a dentist you must do most if not all of the following -
1. Be in the top 1-2% of the country in terms of leaving cert results.
2. Endure 5 years of a course that is more demanding than medicine in terms of hours, clinical time, exam time and exam timetable (and almost any other undergrad course I might add, with the possible exception of engineering). Sacrifice much of so called 'college life'
3. Once qualified, pay off large amount of debt incurred as a result of an inability to do any part-time work in college due to the almost full-time demands of the course.
4. During the first few years of qualification work as an associate to another dentist to whom you must pay 50% of your gross earnings.
5. Endure heavy, stressful workload, including patients with unrealistic expectations, patients who don't respect you enough to follow your advice re: oral hygiene, smoking, drinking, regular visits to the dentist, emergency visits at all hours of the day (I don't do on call work, but I know many dentists who do)
6. Fulfill continuing education requirements, even if you are straight out of college.

And the list goes on and on. If it's so bad, why do I do it you might ask? I find dentistry satisfying, artistic, scientific, curative and rewarding. Many others might say their bank account counterbalances any downsides. I submit they are in dentistry for the wrong reasons. No matter how large your bank account is, it couldn't counterbalance all the rotten smokers mouths, the lancing of abcesses, the hypochondriacs, the crazies, the perpetually demanding and unsatisfied.

Ask me in ten years to find out if I'm even practicing in this country. The likelihood is I won't be. For a couple of reasons (get ready for some massive generalisations but bear with me); Irish patients are not interested in their teeth, Irish patients want you to work miracles for no pay, Irish patients begrudge you the money you earn, Irish patients expect to be seen right away, Irish patients are only interested in how their teeth look and not how they work (although the same can be said for many other nations). Those things can be applied to the wider health services also.

Despite me being a cranky moany aul bollox, I do come across patients that I absolutely love doing work for (even difficult/impossible work). And they are in the minority.

lomb

Big G you forgot in your list patients who are only there because they think they should be there although they have no interest in having anything done to their teeth..
i think this is the universal problem with dentistry. it all fell apart internationally around the nineties when people lost trust in healthcare professionals due to the media exposing various scandals. therefore we are no longer in a position to do the right thing for a patient work away and so must explain our reasoning for treatment. this confuses patients even more as there is no way you are going to explain the ins and outs of occlusion to patients when it takes years for dentists to understand dentistry.
this unfortunately is the sad reality of modern invasive dentistry where lets face it is apart from pain all elective anyway???

btkm8unsl0w5r4

sorry you feel like this teflon, I am sure your turkish crowns are just fine, and I am equally qualified but dont pad my C.V quite as much but thats not the point. I dont know the ins and out of your particular case so maybe crowns were the best for you ( I wonder why you didnt go to the dentist who did your ceramic veneers or were they not veneers but white fillings?).

However I am sure you work in ireland....what if your customers all shopped elsewhere or your company relocated to india to save costs. The buy irish campains have dried up these days and I suppose people really feel strongly about "rip off ireland" but If we all spend our money abroad where would we be. These dentists abroad have an unfair advantage over irish dentist because they can advertise and marketeer at will. They are not liable to irish law regarding malpractice, radiation protection, public liability law and insurance, data protection, health and safety etc.

Big_G

lomb wrote:

Big G you forgot in your list patients who are only there because they think they should be there although they have no interest in having anything done to their teeth..
i think this is the universal problem with dentistry. it all fell apart internationally around the nineties when people lost trust in healthcare professionals due to the media exposing various scandals. therefore we are no longer in a position to do the right thing for a patient work away and so must explain our reasoning for treatment. this confuses patients even more as there is no way you are going to explain the ins and outs of occlusion to patients when it takes years for dentists to understand dentistry.
this unfortunately is the sad reality of modern invasive dentistry where lets face it is apart from pain all elective anyway???

I couldn't agree more. And then you have the possibility of solicitors determining the standard of care, when it should be determined in a clinical/academic setting by those qualified to make such a determination.

This is something that I struggled with, and it was mentioned in a lecture this morning that I was at - that we should make the patient responsible for all decisions taken regarding their healthcare, but as has been demonstrated time and time again on these boards and in my practice patients don't have a clue what they need or what is best for them. Often times I will get patients asking me what I think the best option out of the list that I usually give them and I have to say (for legal as well as other ethical reasons) that they have to make the decision - but they don't have the tools for the job. Like you say it takes years to fully comprehend the complexities of an occlusion, why would a patient be expected to understand why a plunger cusp needs to be trimmed (or pick any other example in dentistry) and actually make informed consent? It's not possible and is the biggest catch 22 in modern medicine and dentistry.

Essentially a few (and they are very few) cowboys ruin it for the rest of us conscientious dentists, and continue to do so (obviously naming no names). They cause the patients to lose faith in the profession.

I also think the time has come to make the profession completely transparent and introduce competition. In the US and Canada it theoretically allows dentists to drive the market (to a certain degree) and not patients. I am an avid reader of another board and it is interesting to see how some dentists practice in other parts of the world (also they are not hampered by a half assed socialised system either but that is a whole other rant).

lomb

if you think irelands dental system is socialist i dont think you know quite how bad it is in the UK. most patients have zero interest in anything except extractions and having 'registration' so they can have their teeth popped out if they get any pain. most patients do not think anything is going to work as their experiance is nothing works (due to cowboys and low fees). the most interesting thing is modern dentistry carried out to a good standard is incredibly reliable.

i think in ireland the way to go in explaining things is aesthetic dentistry for the visable teeth and tell patients to support this longterm they need good harmony for the back teeth that do all the work. otherwise it will never work, and show pictorial examples of occlusions gone horribly wrong. also the statistics that patients with dentures live shorter lifes and have poorer diets due to the fact dentures are only 1/5th or less of real teeth in terms of bite force. i think that is a real eye opener.

also standard of care is probably what we should tell patients they are being advised at. this means that standard of care would be determined by the courts and lawyers as you say. this means recommendation for treatment for periodontal conditions, all furcally involved molars should probably be advised to be extracted and implants placed, crowns for all largly filled back teeth, with recommendatiosn to replace when theres the wiff of decay at the margins, no 3 unit bridges and implants instead, implant retained dentures while theres still bone... thats quite a change from most general practice, and would scare most patients away probably. of course the alternative is to accept the few patients who sue as a cost of doing business. i dont think there is really a good answer and the debate will run and run.