€1-€2 PLO, 20-card wrap when 2 of a suit are on board

CaptainNemo

Similar situations have come up for me a couple of times now when I have a big wrap but there are 2 of a suit on board and I'm facing heavy action.

1) I have T965 rainbow and am last to act. The board is Q87 with two spades and someone has just bet the pot. It's folded around to me. There's about 80 in the pot and the bet is 80, player has about 140 left behind. I have him covered. I don't have any particular read on what he has except that it's either a strong made hand or a strong draw. Action?

2) Board is QT7 with 2 hearts, I have KJ98 rainbow. The preflop raiser has led out into the pot, which is probably about 120 now. I have about 350 behind and he has me covered. At this point I'd put money on him having aces with the nut flush draw. Action?

Killme00

Hand 1: Reraise all in
Hand 2: Fold more thank likely he is blocking your straight draw and if he has hearts you are screwed. As they say the straight draw is the flush draws best friend and the flush draw is the straight draws worst enemy. and its not even the nut straight draw

Lafortezza

1) What was the action preflop? If it's the preflop raiser betting first on the flop I'd be more likely to raise. I don't think you're deep enough to flat call and then decide what to do on the turn, the pot will be too big.

2) The preflop raiser could have alot of hands and be just C-betting, definitely raise here and be happy to get all in. The only hand that has you in trouble equity wise is something like AKQJ with hearts.

CaptainNemo

lafortezza wrote:

1) What was the action preflop? If it's the preflop raiser betting first on the flop I'd be more likely to raise. I don't think you're deep enough to flat call and then decide what to do on the turn, the pot will be too big.

2) The preflop raiser could have alot of hands and be just C-betting, definitely raise here and be happy to get all in. The only hand that has you in trouble equity wise is something like AKQJ with hearts.

1: There was a raise preflop but the guy leading out betting was not the original raiser.

2: So if he just has AA with hearts, without the high backup cards, you would be happy to get it in here? The way I calculate it, at minimum 6 of my outs are dead (the 2 aces, and the K,9,8 and 6 of hearts - I had the Jh in my hand). That leaves me with 14 which is just a little less than even money. I currently only have about 25 invested in the pot.

EDIT: sorry 14 outs is slightly better than even money I just realized. I suppose that means pushing is a good idea since he may well fold.

fuzzbox

fold and fold

In both cases you are a dog to the draw, and a dog to the made hand.
Often its a made hand and either some blockers/splits or a flush draw to go with it.

5starpool

I like the position in hand 2 a lot better than hand 1. In hand 1 a lot of your outs are non nut outs (excluding flush hitting obviously), whereas there are more nut outs in the second hand, also with some non nut ones obviously.

Synopsis: I would probably call in both spots, but raising isn't the worst option either, as it may get rid of some hands that would decrease your chance of winning.

Killme00

Also why are you playing so many rainbow hands for a raise preflop. The flush possibility or blocker increase your hands value exponentially.

CaptainNemo

I folded 1). The bettor showed afterwards - he didn't have a made hand but he had a draw that was killing mine - KJT with spades I think it was.

I pushed 2) and got called by Aces with the nut flush draw (AAh7h to be exact, I can't remember the 4th card but it was irrelevant). I didn't improve.

Looking back I'm happy enough with what I did in both spots, but I think it also wouldn't have been bad to fold 2).

Killme00 wrote:

Also why are you playing so many rainbow hands for a raise preflop. The flush possibility or blocker increase your hands value exponentially.

I've no excuse for 1). 2) was coming up to the last few hands of the night and I'm sure you know what that gets like :-)

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

CaptainNemo wrote:

I folded 1). The bettor showed afterwards - he didn't have a made hand but he had a draw that was killing mine - KJT with spades I think it was.

I pushed 2) and got called by Aces with the nut flush draw (AAh7h to be exact, I can't remember the 4th card but it was irrelevant). I didn't improve.

Looking back I'm happy enough with what I did in both spots, but I think it also wouldn't have been bad to fold 2).

I've no excuse for 1). 2) was coming up to the last few hands of the night and I'm sure you know what that gets like :-)

I would have played both hands the same, whilst you have a heavy draw in Hand 1 you are normally up against a stronger drawing hand on a flop like that.

Killme00

CaptainNemo wrote:

I've no excuse for 1). 2) was coming up to the last few hands of the night and I'm sure you know what that gets like :-)

In that case its excuseable..and yes 2 is a push at the end of the night when you are behind but a fold when you are ahead

I know what its like, thats around the same time we go 1,1,5,15,50 all blind so under the gun is either raise or fold

CaptainNemo

Killme00 wrote:

In that case its excuseable..and yes 2 is a push at the end of the night when you are behind but a fold when you are ahead

I know what its like, thats around the same time we go 1,1,5,15,50 all blind so under the gun is either raise or fold

That's exactly it, I was well down for the night and happy enough to gamble. Having said that, like they say, €350 you don't lose is the same as €350 you win...

CaptainNemo

Can anyone point me to a good thread on preflop strategy in Omaha? I bought Rolf Slotboom's book and it's very dense with information. I was wondering if anyone has condensed a decent, no-nonsense, solid guide to preflop starting hand values in different positions in PLO similarly to how it has been done in Texas.

Y'know, for kids!

Lafortezza

CaptainNemo wrote:

I folded 1). The bettor showed afterwards - he didn't have a made hand but he had a draw that was killing mine - KJT with spades I think it was.

Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Qs 8s 7d
cards          win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
6s 9c  Td  5h  263  32.07   557  67.93    0  0.00  0.321
Ks Js  5d  Th  557  67.93   263  32.07    0  0.00  0.679

Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Qs 8s 7d
cards          win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
6s 9c  Td  5h  412  50.24   408  49.76    0  0.00  0.502
As Qd  5d  Qh  408  49.76   412  50.24    0  0.00  0.498

That's your equity against Villains draw and top set, so I don't think you're ever in terribly bad shape. If Villain is not that good then I'd still probably ship it in alot of the time.

fuzzbox wrote:

fold and fold

In both cases you are a dog to the draw, and a dog to the made hand.
Often its a made hand and either some blockers/splits or a flush draw to go with it.

You sure you're in the right thread?

fuzzbox

lafortezza wrote:

You sure you're in the right thread?

In both cases you have no fold equity and you are either flipping or a dog.
In both cases you have no reason to jack your money in as a dog.

So dont.

cardshark202

Agree with fuzz here. Both are folds