Absolute Zero... ...What about 'Absolute Maximum'?

Kevster

Hey,

While pondering a few things recently I stumbled upon the realisation that there must be an absolute maximum temperature. Let me explain:

If there is an absolute zero (a temperature at which particles have zero velocity), it follows that there ought to be an ‘absolute maximum’ (a temperature at which particles have ‘maximum’ velocity). As the temperature of a particle increases, its velocity increases. However, according to Relativity, nothing can move faster than the speed of light. Thus, if Relativity holds true, there must be a maximum temperature, beyond which nothing can exceed.

How does this sound?

Kevin.

slade_x

There's no way to compare it, absolute zero is the absence of any heat, being the coldest anything can be, temp is a measure of the average kinetic energy of particles

the only maximum would the maximum amount of thermal energy any one material can withstand before it combusts. there wouldnt be a realistic way to scale it as you could have 2 atoms highly energised that would be much colder than tens or hundreths of atoms with average potential energy, you could have a lot more atoms with half the kenetic energy of just a few and it would would measure hotter. the limiting factor would be the amount of energy actually available

we currently dont know of anything that is at absolute zero, outer space is the coldest we have enocuntered and still on average 3 degrees kelvin, just 3 degrees about absolute zero

Kevster

slade_x wrote:

the limiting factor would be the amount of energy actually available

Right, so, then there is in fact a maximum temperature because there is only a certain amount of energy in the Universe. You could have a situation like the Big Bang, where all matter is compressed into a singularity. You could not add more matter to it to increase it's temperature, because all of the matter is already there (in the singularity).

aequinoctium

it's quite improbable

Kevster

... ...you never said why.

slade_x

Kevster wrote:

Right, so, then there is in fact a maximum temperature because there is only a certain amount of energy in the Universe. You could have a situation like the Big Bang, where all matter is compressed into a singularity. You could not add more matter to it to increase it's temperature, because all of the matter is already there (in the singularity).

But that wouldnt be an absolute maximum temperature, as its only a limitation of the amount of energy available. there's a big difference, you cant state an absolute maximum temperature just because of the limited amount of energy available.

Absolute zero however is absolute, it cant get any colder as all the heat has already been extracted.

Kevster

That's the voice of reason; thank you. One thing puzzles me though: Why does Stephen Hawking mention that temperature is only a measure of the velocity of a particle in A Brief History of Time? Actually, I think I've just answered my own question because a lot of the things in that book are not explained well!

bonkey

Kevster wrote:

How does this sound?

Like you've never heard of the mathematical concept of an asymptote

Kevster

Firstly, when quoting someone, do it correctly. There was no ' have. Of course I have heard of asymptote.

Cuidade,
Kevin.

Oh, we are adding winks now? Okay,

... ...and you have corrected your misquote. Thank you.

slade_x

Kevster wrote:

That's the voice of reason; thank you. One thing puzzles me though: Why does Stephen Hawking mention that temperature is only a measure of the velocity of a particle in A Brief History of Time? Actually, I think I've just answered my own question because a lot of the things in that book are not explained well!

He's basically explaining what a temperature reading is. not all atoms are moving at the same velocity, some can be at high speed and others extremely slow, in a solid they would be vibrating and not moving freely like a gas, a temperature reading is the average speed of the atom in the given space at any given time. an accurate temperature reading would only be valid for much, much less than fractions of a fraction of a second.

bonkey

Kevster wrote:

Of course I have heard of asymptote.

Well then consider how it might apply to this situation rather than getting insulted that I asked.

If mass 'increases' under relativistic effects, and only massless objects can reach C, does this not suggest that the energy-curve for accelerating a mass must be - at best - asymptotic to C , resulting in no theroetical "Absolute Maximum"?

Regarding absolute zero, while the background radiation of hte universe is around 3 degrees Kelvin, we have gotten closer to Absolute Zero in lab conditions.

SkepticOne

Temperature is directly proportional to the average kinetic energy of the molecules. Unlike velocity, there is no upper limit to kinetic energy.

Mahatma coat

I was thinkon about this a bit and I was wonderin, like the Kelvin scale is Kinetic energy or the rate of 'vibration' of the bond that holds stuff together,, and like they've discovered plasma to be a fourth form of energy, so is there a point to which you can heat a substance till it,I dunno critical mass comes to mind as an expression, but thats kinda different so I dunno but is there a point at which the whole thing just gives up and vaporises and no further energy can be added, and would that be universal across all substances or not ??

Son Goku

The maximum temperature is 1.41679(11) × 10^32 Kelvin. The reasons for this are a bit odd. In relativity, even though velocity is bounded to being beneath c, the energy associated with temperature is unbounded and can rise indefinitely,................except that at high enough temperatures a particle will have enough energy to start curving spacetime to the point where quantum gravity comes in and temperature becomes undefined.

Mahatma coat

Cool, so thats that one answered then.

now backto wonderinabout Tesla's cosmic enegy ideas.

Joeyjoejoe43

Son Goku wrote:

The maximum temperature is 1.41679(11) × 10^32 Kelvin. The reasons for this are a bit odd. In relativity, even though velocity is bounded to being beneath c, the energy associated with temperature is unbounded and can rise indefinitely,................except that at high enough temperatures a particle will have enough energy to start curving spacetime to the point where quantum gravity comes in and temperature becomes undefined.

Correct. This is temperature believed to exist at the start of the big bang. Nothing in the universe can get hotter than this..