Ajs in a re-raised pot

phantom_lord

my attempt to steal blinds is running at about 40%, so i figure he's had enough of me at this stage and is playing back, i just call with ajs.

21/16/3 5/1.03/1.49 by street


I call the flop planning on folding to any further action without improving since he bets his whole range on the flop, and it's unlikey he continues with worse.


Noble Poker 0.50/1.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button phantom_lord ($99.00)
SB ($86.03)
BB BB ($214.12)
UTG ($29.30)
UTG+1 ($107.30)
CO ($95.37)

Preflop: phantom_lord is on the Button with A J
3 folds, phantom_lord raises to 4.00, 1 fold, BB raises to 15.00, phantom_lord calls 12.00.

Flop (32.50) A 4 2
BB bets 25.00, phantom_lord calls 25.00.


Any thoughts on the hand?

bops

grand, when he checks the turn - push

Samba

Tricky spot and somewhat marginal PF call, regardless of the history he will pick up a hand to fight back with eventually....


Raising would not be optimal but flat calling is also complicated as he could put you on a flush draw, if he has 1010+ he may well keep firing on a blank turn and im not sure you can stand the heat with AJ here.

kryogen

unless im mistaken, you have $59 behind having commited $40 to the pot already..... no brainer to me in this position to be honest..... i dont think folding is now an option..... if he checks turn ship it, if he fires again i probably wouldnt be too happy but id still call all in here.... your not really deep enough to fold

Samba

Agree with Kry there, sorry didn't see the stack sizes, I would still not be thrilled about getting it in with AJ soooted

ianmc38

bops wrote:

grand, when he checks the turn - push

that is awful advice

ianmc38

check the turn if checked to. if he bets i would lean towards folding as his turn aggression gactor is quite low and your call on the flop makes your hand pretty transparent

cardshark202

I wouldn't fold this hand now, I would def call a turn push given your read. I prefer 4betting preflop though, don't like the call at all.

ianmc38

yeah id prefer a 4bet as well. meant to say that. dont like the cold call with 100BB stacks

kryogen

ianmc38 wrote:

yeah id prefer a 4bet as well. meant to say that. dont like the cold call with 100BB stacks

you would prefer to 4 bet pre flop with AJ and you said bops's advice was awful???? id like to see a show of hands for which advice is worse to be honest

the stack is not deep enough to fold....either fold pre flop, which probably would have been the best thing, or you have to be prepared to go broke in this situation

phantom_lord

4betting pf is probably better than calling.

the stack is not deep enough to fold

i don't really agree with this, there's still 60bbs to go in, if he shoves the turn i'm gonna fold since i expect to be well behind.

Van Dice

Definitely check behind turn if it's checked to you. On river either call a push or shove yourself. If he shoves the turn I would fold.
I think I would just fold to his 3-bet preflop though

mrflash

whats the idea of the call if you dont feel confident of being ahead when you hit the ace? you made the call, now you push, why wait?

phantom_lord

mrflash wrote:

whats the idea of the call if you dont feel confident of being ahead when you hit the ace? you made the call, now you push, why wait?

because he reraises a ton of hands pf, and bets the flop with all of them, so i can call, but i think he only shoves the turn with a better hand, if i shove now i just get stacked when he has a better hand and he folds worse.

mrflash

i don't like it, i mean if he is aware of this type of play, you could get trapped. i see where you are coming from, but i ask one question, do you know what percentage of hands is he raising the turn with of those where he is called postflop.

Captain Tom

mrflash wrote:

i don't like it, i mean if he is aware of this type of play, you could get trapped. i see where you are coming from, but i ask one question, do you know what percentage of hands is he raising the turn with of those where he is called postflop.

i is confused.

4b is def better than calling p/f. it's pretty marginal but given reads id call now.

Mr.Plough

is 4betting pf not a little spewy with 100bb stacks?

when he checks the turn - push

as ian said check behind and get some value out of hands you beat.

what do you expect to call a turn push?

ianmc38

kryogen wrote:

you would prefer to 4 bet pre flop with AJ and you said bops's advice was awful???? id like to see a show of hands for which advice is worse to be honest

the stack is not deep enough to fold....either fold pre flop, which probably would have been the best thing, or you have to be prepared to go broke in this situation

If you dont know why Bops advice is bad and why 4betting preflop against somebody that aggressive with given history is nothing short of standard ABC poker (folding is also ok but i think a 4bet is better here), then you need to go back to the drawing board.

Also, to say that we're not deep enough to fold the turn is ridiculous. There's still more than 50BBs to go in. Do you never fold top pair when you have 60BBs or less? If you don't you should really start to consider doing it.

Macspower

I don't mind the call preflop but would prob fold about 80% of the time with a read or previous 3/4/5 bet battles.... If I'm not folding I would 4 bet about 10% of the time and the other 10% would call...

If I called preflop I would also call the flop like you did and if he checks the turn you MUST check behind!!!! betting here is very bad....

If he fires again on the turn I fold imediately...

If the turn goes check/check I call a river bet but not an all in.. If he checks the river to me I bet for value and I suppose wewre not deep enough to bet/fold on the river really although this would be my line normally

bops

ianmc38 wrote:

If you dont know why Bops advice is bad and why 4betting preflop against somebody that aggressive with given history is nothing short of standard ABC poker (folding is also ok but i think a 4bet is better here), then you need to go back to the drawing board.

Also, to say that we're not deep enough to fold the turn is ridiculous. There's still more than 50BBs to go in. Do you never fold top pair when you have 60BBs or less? If you don't you should really start to consider doing it.

I've pushed here a million times against aggro players and been called by worse hands eg KK QQ JJ TT - there are way too many retards that automatically put you on a FD/float by only calling the flop - if you had rasied the flop bet you get rid of underpairs

as for 4 betting preflop - meh - that surely gets rid of worse hands and only gets called by hand that beat you

AJ is real sh*t anyways - it's even worse than AQ!

btw - i'm beginning to realise that none of ye know sh*t

ianmc38

4 betting isn't always for value.

bops

ianmc38 wrote:

4 betting isn't always for value.

ok, so you fold out small pairs - wd

i doubt if you fold out AK/Q or TT+ tho

ianmc38

Do you have any understanding of 3 or 4 betting at all? 3betting ATC regularly against an aggressive person raising in position is essential. 4 betting light is also essential against any decent player as otherwise you will be destroyed by any half decent aggro tag.

There are a number of reasons to 4 bet:

1. To protect our hand which may often be the best
2. We'll fold out better hands ie 22-JJ, sometimes even QQ and yes AQ will often be folded.
3. To stop people from 3 betting you light, metagame and so on
4. For value
5. etc

Macspower

ianmc38 wrote:

Do you have any understanding of 3 or 4 betting at all? 3betting ATC regularly against an aggressive person raising in position is essential. 4 betting light is also essential against any decent player as otherwise you will be destroyed by any half decent aggro tag.

There are a number of reasons to 4 bet:

1. To protect our hand which may often be the best
2. We'll fold out better hands ie 22-JJ, sometimes even QQ and yes AQ will often be folded.
3. To stop people from 3 betting you light, metagame and so on
4. For value
5. etc

good post Ian....

add to list to get paid the next time we do it with AA

kryogen

1: 3 betting, 4 betting they are all terms used for limit holdem and not for NLHE.....just wanted to point that out

2: with 100bb's how many do you actually think you can put in by your "4 bet" pre flop and then fold as im pretty sure even with this type player he is folding out all hands we beat and he his only going to be shoving with a hand that has us murdered....

3: yes a 4 bet with this type of hand can be better then calling, but not when the stacks are shallow.....and its still not as good as folding

4: yes i can fold 59bb's with top pair. my point is if your going to do it in this situation why not save yourself another 40bb's and fold pre flop?

5: do you make a habit of putting in pretty much half your stack and folding?? YOU CAN RE LOAD! this is cash!

6: i lost my train of thought sorry, got bored arguing a mute point :rolleyes:

ianmc38

1. 3 and 4 betting can be applied to NL as well. They obv came from LHE.

2. Missing the point

3. Since when is 100BBs shallow?

4. See 2 above

5. Retarded. Obviously not. I fold when i think i'm beaten. There are many times when half a stack goes in and you have to fold when a flush card comes, straight card comes etc etc. How many hands of poker have you actually played in your life? I'm guessing not very many.

6. Tears are forming in Baby Jesus' eyes

Finally going back to the hand, we're playing someone with history who is known to be extremely aggressive (backed up by his stats), who is going to be 3 betting us light. AJs is probably miles ahead of his range here. Flat calling is going to be spewy, folding is ok, but here's a perfect opportunity to pick up 20 odd BBs uncontested via a 4bet.

ianmc38

Hmm text disappeared. This is an example of a light 5 bet with history against a good TAG 22/18. Ive laods more 4betting hands, but i just remmeber that one as it happened yesterday

Green Joker Poker 2.00/4.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ($370.20)
SB ($400.00)
BB Hero ($400.00)
UTG ($725.95)
UTG+1 ($834.90)
CO ($161.00)

Preflop: Hero is in the BB with 3 3
3 folds, Button raises to 16.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to 48.00, Button raises to 124.00, Hero moves all-in for 348.00, 1 fold

Hero shows 3 3

Hero wins 542.00 with One pair, Three

kryogen

100bb's is not deep in a cash game- mute point

your missing my points completely and like i said im bored arguing this one, you can have the last word if you like? you can make yourself feel like a "big man"

ps, i cant say for sure how many hands ive played, probably more then 7???


EDIT: 59bb's is certainly not deep in cash, and this is where the question is raised

ianmc38

No the question is preflop when we're 100BBs deep. And believe it or not I'm actually trying to give you helpful advice here. With the way the games are these days, light 3 4 and not so much 5 betting are all hugely important if you want to sustain a decent winrate. You just caught me on a day when I've lost 6 times to 2 outers which have given me a bb/100 of 3 for the day which is rather frustrating, hence the heated tone. No offence intended.

El Stuntman

ianmc38 wrote:

With the way the games are these days, light 3 4 and not so much 5 betting are all hugely important if you want to sustain a decent winrate.

is there any validity in taking a contrarian view here?

i.e. 'if everyone else is doing one thing, then it's profitable to do the opposite'

(Ian you bollix, how the fcuk can you be grumpy - we're cold here while you swanny around the Far East!)

mdwexford

ianmc38 wrote:

Green Joker Poker 2.00/4.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ($370.20)
SB ($400.00)
BB Hero ($400.00)
UTG ($725.95)
UTG+1 ($834.90)
CO ($161.00)

Preflop: Hero is in the BB with 3 3
3 folds, Button raises to 16.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to 48.00, Button raises to 124.00, Hero moves all-in for 348.00, 1 fold

Hero shows 3 3

Hero wins 542.00 with One pair, Three

must have been a lot of history there....

wp though

ianmc38

El Stuntman wrote:

is there any validity in taking a contrarian view here?

i.e. 'if everyone else is doing one thing, then it's profitable to do the opposite'

(Ian you bollix, how the fcuk can you be grumpy - we're cold here while you swanny around the Far East!)

well u can be a 13/9 nit too. seems to work well.

JJ/KK = grumpy

El Stuntman

ianmc38 wrote:

well u can be a 13/9 nit too. seems to work well.

JJ/KK = grumpy

lol, I'm a 22/11 nit - world of difference!

ianmc38

haha not u. in general i meant. theres like a million of them on Ipoker

El Stuntman

ianmc38 wrote:

haha not u. in general i meant. theres like a million of them on Ipoker

table selection my good man....

jbravado

ianmc38 wrote:

5. etc

Genius.

mrflash

this 3bet and 4bet thing is a bit ridiculous, you can stick to those rules if you like, but i much prefer bet variance, so as not to give away any information as to the cards i am holding and potentially make a big killing with a big hand. i especially like the idea of changing the way i play a particular hand immediately after i have shown it to the table.
The idea that you should play like this just makes me laugh. if everyone starts playing the same way, its going to get awfully tough to make money.
But i don't believe in showing any hand at any stage without someone paying to see it, regardless of whether its a big hand or some sort of move or bluff.

El Stuntman

still trying to come to grips with the elusive mrflash...I searched Google images and found this wierdness

ianmc38

mrflash wrote:

this 3bet and 4bet thing is a bit ridiculous, you can stick to those rules if you like, but i much prefer bet variance, so as not to give away any information as to the cards i am holding and potentially make a big killing with a big hand. i especially like the idea of changing the way i play a particular hand immediately after i have shown it to the table.
The idea that you should play like this just makes me laugh. if everyone starts playing the same way, its going to get awfully tough to make money.
But i don't believe in showing any hand at any stage without someone paying to see it, regardless of whether its a big hand or some sort of move or bluff.

varying betting frequencies? there's a novel concept. welcome to boards mr sklanksy

RoundTower

I don't see anything wrong with just calling here if he is playing back at you light, but not light enough that a 4 bet is profitable.

Theresalwaysone

Same.....

OutOfPosition

bops wrote:

I've pushed here a million times against aggro players and been called by worse hands eg KK QQ JJ TT - there are way too many retards that automatically put you on a FD/float by only calling the flop - if you had rasied the flop bet you get rid of underpairs

as for 4 betting preflop - meh - that surely gets rid of worse hands and only gets called by hand that beat you

AJ is real sh*t anyways - it's even worse than AQ!

btw - i'm beginning to realise that none of ye know sh*t

3 Points in order that i have them highlighted

1.I assume your a terrible losing player

2. "retards" for want of a better word will have no idea what a float is!!

3. Im really glad you stopped posting on this thread as you were really embarrassing youself and im pretty sure now it is obvious to all who does not have a clue.

im begining to get annoyed reading your posts running everyone down when ur own theorys are so horribly flawed

END RANT