Queenio, who has the balls?

DeVore

I hate a lot of things about this hand, but theres not much point in putting up hands I know I played well....

I have QQ in early position of a PLH game, 8 handed.
I raise to 7 despite knowing that I will get callers regardless, because I would rather charge them 7 euros to see a flop I hope to shut down on the flop then just call 2 euros and get a bunch of floaters when I raise to 10 on the flop. I'm reasonably sure this is the best line but this hand really wrecked my head. This table isnt particularly aggro so I dont think limp-reraise is on the cards...

I get 2 callers and a flop of 853 with two hearts. BB who is a good player, bit tight/agg but very good reader of the game, bets the pot of 25.

You're move?

DeV.
ps: the thread title maybe be a little old for a lot of our younger players

Captain Tom

stacks?

DeVore

Sorry, we both have about 200 euros.

DeV.

Captain Tom

id probably just call and shove over his bet on a blank turn.

DeVore

Whats your thinking behind that? If you think you are ahead, why not reraise here? Seems like an odd play but I'm open to anything here as I dont think I could have played this hand any worse then I did

DeV.

Captain Tom

considering your read, if we raise on the flop we probably fold out 77-TT/8x type hands and get it in vs sets+combodraws. if we call flop people will put you on a drawy type hand a lot and fire again so we get more value out of these hands. plus, if the turn is a heart and he fires again it gives us a chance to re-evaluate since we're in position.

im never folding a blank turn with 100bb stacks on such a drawy board either.

phantom_lord

i'd just call, if u raise you let him get away from worse hands which he'll probably fire again with on the turn.

Captain Tom

if he was really bad or viewed you as a maniac or something id be much happier to raise flop and get it in because our hand would have much better equity vs the range of hands he's willing to stack off with.

BuChan

i think you should raise, highly likely he's betting a draw here.

ocallagh

I raise and shove an innocent looking turn.

PL, if we thought villain had something like A8 then your plan is fine, but on this board I think we need to raise. Too many turn cards will either kill the action or kill our hand.

Hyzepher

The real questions is "Is she fat or is she thin,or is she like a rolling pin"?

RoundTower

I raise and call a shove, you might be losing value against something like 99 but you also need to charge the flush draw.

fuzzbox

Hyzepher wrote:

The real questions is "Is she fat or is she thin,or is she like a rolling pin"?

Is she big is she small, is she like a bowling ball.

MickL

i remember this hand i think you where never getting away from it 9 times out of 10 the money goes in the middle!!! WP sir

(luckbox)

NickyOD

I call because against a good player a raise only invites a shove from a hand that beats me or 67h which is still a favourite. Calling also disguises the strength of your hand and helps you extract more from under pairs. Whatever he has, it will become much more transparent on the turn.

I don't mind ocallagh's line either on a regular live PLHE game, but not against a "good" player which is a term used way too often to describe villains in these threads, but since it's Tom posting this I'm sure the villain IS a good player which is why raising the flop HAS to be a bad.

charlesanto

Hyzepher wrote:

The real questions is "Is she fat or is she thin,or is she like a rolling pin"?

LOL

DeVore

Liam Barker was the unfortunate victim of this hand.

I reraised to 75 and called his push somewhat reluctantly, he had two pair and I turned a set (yes, I'm a luck box).

I hated this hand though and really cant see any way out of it thats good play long term. I think the play I made is reasonable enough as it was a very drawing board but I hate the thought of going broke every time someone out draws a big pair of mine like that.

Really unpleasant spot to find myself in though and as I said, not sure what can be done at any point in the hand to avoid it.

DeV.

Samba

DeVore wrote:

Really unpleasant spot to find myself in though and as I said, not sure what can be done at any point in the hand to avoid it.

DeV.

I beg to differ Tom, you did have an option to fold PF did you not?

It's a horrid spot and I bloody hate Queens, did i mention i hate Queens?

DeVore

As crazy as it sounds when you type it, folding preflop is only slightly worse then folding after the flop (not that I recommend that, I hasten to add).

Folding when he pushed crossed my mind for some time but it seems horribly weak/tight.
Flat calling on the flop seems like watered down "weak/tightness" and begs to be pushed off the hand on any turn card by any half decent player.

Which leads to the only other path I can think to suggest (but not recommend) and that is to play QQ utg like you might play 66 there, ie: for set value only. The idea has merit in that you can reraise if raised behind, and if not you have certainly disguised your hand and could find it easy to get paid off. But something about limping with QQ just seems wrong, even in pot limit...
The difference is that with 66: no set, no bet... and you would release it because most flops would have over cards; could you say the same for QQ? The likelihood is that the flop would come with all under cards and then you REALLY dont know where you are.

I think I hate queens too...
DeV.

phantom_lord

DeVore wrote:

Flat calling on the flop seems like watered down "weak/tightness" and begs to be pushed off the hand on any turn card by any half decent player.

so call and let him stack off then?

RoundTower

I think I just call against Liam though I haven't played much hold'em against him. Although I'm not quite sure what 2 pair he could turn up with here unless he thinks you are really **** at poker.

mrflash

Queens are a raising hand no matter the position imo. The fact that you are getting called by a number of players means that the odds of getting beaten by someone on the flop is greater. you are roughly 80% heads up preflop with this hand without knowing what your opponent is holding. i wouldnt limp with this hand under any circumstance.
if you had aces postflop and this board came down, what would you do?
and the reason i ask is that whatever you would do with this board, you must proceed the same way with qq at this stage.
i think you played them well and you got lucky, but not as lucky as you might think, as any pair not including the two pair your opponent was holding would also have won you the hand. he go what he deserved playing a hand like that in a raised pot. And let me tell you, he probably will not learn from it either. he will consider himself unlucky, when all that happened was that he played a low percentage hand against a high one, and lost, albeit that he was ahead at one stage in the hand.

Cuban Son

mrflash wrote:

And let me tell you, he probably will not learn from it either. he will consider himself unlucky, when all that happened was that he played a low percentage hand against a high one, and lost, albeit that he was ahead at one stage in the hand.

And let me tell you, obviously you've never heard of Liam Barker.......go fish mrflash.

strewelpeter

DeVore wrote:

As crazy as it sounds when you type it, folding preflop is only slightly worse then folding after the flop ...
Which leads to the only other path I can think to suggest (but not recommend) and that is to play QQ utg like you might play 66 there, ie: for set value only...
DeV.

Is calling 2 from EP and repotting the almost inevitable raise a viable option?

I know it wasn't a very aggressive table by typical Dublin standards i.e there was an occasional family pot! But about 7+ times out of ten there is going to be a raise. If you don't get the chance to bet then play it for set value.

Primewise

strewelpeter wrote:

Is calling 2 from EP and repotting the almost inevitable raise a viable option?

I know it wasn't a very aggressive table by typical Dublin standards i.e there was an occasional family pot! But about 7+ times out of ten there is going to be a raise. If you don't get the chance to bet then play it for set value.

Limp reraising is usually only good if the stacks are not deep. Your giving away the fact that you have a big pair and therefore if you get a caller he has far more information than you do.

If the stacks are about 50BB, then limp reraising is ok because it will go something like this: -
EP limps for 1BB
LP raises to 4BB
EP reraises to 15BB, LP calls.

Pot: c.31.5BB. (minimum. This could be more than 2 people see flop).

Now you have only 35BB left so it is much harder to be pushed off the hand, i.e. you can go to showdown with your Big pair.

However the situation is much different with 100BB. If you limp reraise, your opponent will be able to make large bets in position on the turn or river knowing that you most likely hold a high pair and therefore can outplay you

strewelpeter

I see what your saying and I'd agree nearer 200 bb's.
Maybe not at this particular table, but at most 1 2 PLH tables in Dublin should we not be looking to play for stacks on a non A K flop where they are itching to get it in with any draw TP any kicker etc?

DeVore

To be fair to Liam he was BB and had 2 euro in already, with a few callers ahead of him he made a loose call. He put 5 euro in when he was behind, I on the other hand, put ~195 euro in when I was behind.
As he said himself, if there wasnt a flush draw on board I might not have called his reraise but it was such a drawing board for the BB I dont think I could get away from the idea that he was pushing me off my over pair.

DeV.