Value in check calling?

falterego

Hey,sorry if this thread is a bit vague but I've grappling with this idea for a while and was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were.I read boards alot, don't post much obv., and I notice that the line of thought 'If I bet he folds everything in his range I can beat, if I check he may bet into me with a wider range therefore check-calling is +ev'.

Obv. this is a simplification and such a line is dependent on the board, player, situation, stacks etc.My real question is what are the criteria where check-calling becomes an optimal play?I ask because this line is traditionally thought of as passive, weak etc.

My own opinion is that this line is more suited to limit and pot-limit games where some control over the size of the pot can be exercised.For example if we plan on a check-call line and the villain moves all-in on the flop we have to place alot of trust in our read and may second guess ourselves.This line also seems more applicable to the river where our hand has show down value and the size of the pot might make calling a given.

I also assume that if the pot is played HU this line is more applicable / less dangerous(?).My worry is that if we adopt the logic 'I'm either way behind or way in front' and therefore check-call we give ourselves difficult decisions on later streets.Scare cards and sheer agression from the villain can put us to a test rather avoided.

Thoughts much appreciated and yes I am in work this early and very bored!

luckylucky

Nice topic, one that doesn't get discussed as much as it probably should.

Check calling is definitely valid under a number of conditions, traditionally seen as weak play but this is because weak players overdo this play.

falterego wrote:

My own opinion is that this line is more suited to limit and pot-limit games where some control over the size of the pot can be exercised.

The control of the pot size element is an important consideration alright, but you could also argue that in limit play if you think your ahead especially against a loose poor player you're allowing them to catch up too easily. I would typically prefer to find out more information by raising with a moderate hand(that I think is ahead). In no limit and pot limit the size of the pot can be a scary factor for your opponent too. Just check calling on the flop, may cause your opponent to back off on turn and against certain opponents you can often take down the pot (with or without(Ollyk used this a lot against me in h-u semi ) a genuine hand) having floated on the flop.

falterego wrote:

This line also seems more applicable to the river where our hand has show down value and the size of the pot might make calling a given.

I agree, I think the check call comes mostly into focus on the river. I would use it quite a bit when I think someone has a bust draw or any other type of hand like you said that you think will fold but if checked to the guy may try to steal the pot. It's a particularly good play to use against the uber fish lag combo type who call you down with f-all and bet at the first sign of weakness.

I had a particular case however of playing a Lag/Borderline Maniac in an sng last night. I arrived at the river with good but not great hands against him and I think I erred in checking with planning to call a moderate bet, when he overbet the pot on a couple of occasions (something which he would do with a top hand too, which I think he had hit by the run of the play on the river both times) I backed off. Though I'll never know now a blocking bet I believe would have been the safer option in those particular cases.

falterego wrote:

'I'm either way behind or way in front' and therefore check-call we give ourselves difficult decisions on later streets.

Well that's the nail on the head really and one of the main reasons for just betting or raising your hand instead of the 'weak' call play. The other reason of course is simply to just get more more into the pot when you have a very good hand, might as well try to get it paid off and build that pot.

Anyway hope my post makes some sort of sense, earlier enough in the morning for me too.