Parking in Sandyford Industrial Estate

BobbyD10

I did hear somwhere a few months ago the council where gonna make the estate a pay and display zone.

I today have seen the evidence in one of the cul de sacs in the estate, where the signs have gone up and are just short the meters.

Now I know there has been poor parking throughtout the estate, and this will lets say keep everything orderly and tidy but is this not poor greed from the council, yes its done everywhere why not the estate, however due to the expansion of the estate and increasing numbers employed the companies car parks have become overcrowded in certain parts and people have had to park i the outside roads.

Thankfully it doesn't affect me, but just felt sorry for people who will have to fork out whatever price they decide, say €2 an hr they park for eight hrs. Thats around €80 a week.

There is the Luas I suppose for ppl to use but thats limited to ppl on the route, anyway just thought I would mention it.

unkel

Moved from Motors to C&T

markpb

The signs and meters are in place outside my office on Arena road but AFAIK the meters aren't taking money yet. The really strange thing is that the parking is for 3 hours only so it's not aimed at people working in the estate who can presumably all park their cars on the roofs of buildings or something

I'm all for public transport (I cycle + Luas to get here) but plenty of people come here from south of Sandyford and public transport isn't really an option.

antoinolachtnai

Does no one park in the Park and Ride?

CountryWise

A small bit off topic here.......are you allowed to bring a bike on the Luas with you?

antoinolachtnai

No. but I suppose a folding bike is ok.

mikemac

I think you can bring those foldable bicycles on the luas no problem.
You can't bring an ordinary one which is fair, especially in peak hours.

However, if you want to try it then go for it. The worst that can happen is you'll be asked to get off at the next stop.

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Does no one park in the Park and Ride?

Park and Ride is quite a distance from a lot of the units in the estate, I can understand peoples desire to park closer.

To be honest, it comes down to the same crap it always does, bad planning. Why don't more buildings have underground parking? Why wasn't more space allocated in each unit to parking? It's a out-of-town industrial estate in Dublin, it shouldn't come as a surprise to the planners that people will want to drive there.

godtabh

markpb wrote:

Park and Ride is quite a distance from a lot of the units in the estate, I can understand peoples desire to park closer.

To be honest, it comes down to the same crap it always does, bad planning. Why don't more buildings have underground parking? Why wasn't more space allocated in each unit to parking? It's a out-of-town industrial estate in Dublin, it shouldn't come as a surprise to the planners that people will want to drive there.

Thats what the lusas was for. To encourage people not to drive. Its the same reason why you pay for parking in Dundrum.

markpb

kearnsr wrote:

Thats what the lusas was for. To encourage people not to drive. Its the same reason why you pay for parking in Dundrum.

I agree, I get the Luas. But it's not much help to people commuting in from south of Sandyford.

stiofanD

Its not much help to people commuting from the west/south west of the city either. I'm in Ballyboden/Rathfarnham and there's really no convenient public transport option to get to Sandyford. In the past I've got the 161 to Ballinteer, the 14a to windy arbour and the luas to Sandyford, followed by a 20 minute walk to the depths of South County business park. However, by the time I got to work, it was almost time to go home again :rolleyes:

godtabh

markpb wrote:

I agree, I get the Luas. But it's not much help to people commuting in from south of Sandyford.

I worked up there for 6 months and came from Lucan via the bus and Luas.

Public transport (it appears to me any ways) is there.

tampopo

CountryWise wrote:

A small bit off topic here.......are you allowed to bring a bike on the Luas with you?

yeah, I saw a chinese fella with his bike on the back section of a Luas on the Tallaght line last year. Off peak so it was.

dodgyme

I worked down there coming from West Dublin. Its a nightmare whether you take the car or (car/train/walk/luas/walk, lovely integrated transport system). The company provided 4 spaces for 20 people and I needed a car for the job also and some ppl were coming from offaly and meath and louth. It was a pure joke and the company were crap also, so I left. I still know people doing it and hearing this news is very bad for business in the area.:rolleyes:

ManAboutCouch

markpb wrote:

To be honest, it comes down to the same crap it always does, bad planning. Why don't more buildings have underground parking? Why wasn't more space allocated in each unit to parking? It's a out-of-town industrial estate in Dublin, it shouldn't come as a surprise to the planners that people will want to drive there.

I believe the current planning regulations limit the number of parking spaces that developers are allowed to provide. It's something in the order of 1 space per 3 workers.

There are good reasons for this, firstly looking at current traffic in the estate, the provision of even more parking would make a bad situation even worse.

Secondly I estimate that there are perhaps 4 times as many people working in the estate (and immediate surroundings - South County Business Park for example) as there were 10 years ago. Providing parking for all of those people is simply not sustainable, economically or environmentally.

Of course bus provision to areas other than the city centre is little short of a joke. Yes, the Luas is great, and more lines should be built as a matter of urgency, but don't forget the humble bus. High frequency circular routes from across the south of the city to the estate should be implemented in advance of these reductions in on-street parking. Demand on these routes might even help in the planning of additional Luasanna.

Part of the problem seems to be that people want to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to live in a suburban low-density semi-d good for you, but don't expect your public transport provision to amount to much, as the density is too low.

markpb

ManAboutCouch wrote:

Part of the problem seems to be that people want to have their cake and eat it too. If you want to live in a suburban low-density semi-d good for you, but don't expect your public transport provision to amount to much, as the density is too low.

It's been quite obvious for about five years that the estate is a major employment centre. It's true that the Luas is a big improvement and carries a lot of people but unless you live in the city centre or along a narrow corridor near the Luas, it's not much use. Like you said, buses would be the best way to service it but right now we have:

114 - a hilarious attempt at a dart feeder service. Infrequent, unreliable and slow. There's an average of 20-30 minutes between bus in the morning which adds a lot to a journey time if you're coming off the Dart. A previous work colleage told me that the 114 was the reason she learned to drive.

46b - terrible route, I couldn't believe how windy it was when I used it first. If someone designed a road to be as bus-unfriendly as possible, the 46b route would be it. Not a very useful timetable if you want to be in work for 9.

75 - great idea badly implemented. Timetable is okay but people here have said it's rubbish.

11b - not even mentioned on the DB website if you search by area. Pretty much duplicates the Luas and is notoriously slow, especially in the evening

So that leaves a huge chunk of the west-south-west of the city and south of the estate not served at all and the rest served badly. A lot of the traffic in the estate could be removed if some sort of thought was put into this but instead we provide nothing and then penalise people for driving. I'm normally a very pro-public-transport but sometimes it gets a little ridiculous.

antoinolachtnai

But isn't the estate very congested? It would be impossible to run a profitable or efficient bus service as a result. There are an awful lot of cars, and there is very little road space.

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote:

But isn't the estate very congested? It would be impossible to run a profitable or efficient bus service as a result. There are an awful lot of cars, and there is very little road space.

Blackthorn Road (southbound) and Blackthorn Avenue are both busy very evening but only for a limited amount of time. I've never seen any other congestion in (my part of) the estate and there's a reasonable amount of room to widen those roads. Given the one way system, only one extra lane would need to be added to introduce a decent bus lane.

spacetweek

markpb wrote:

To be honest, it comes down to the same crap it always does, bad planning. Why don't more buildings have underground parking? Why wasn't more space allocated in each unit to parking? It's a out-of-town industrial estate in Dublin, it shouldn't come as a surprise to the planners that people will want to drive there.

Mark the problem is that if you provide unrestricted, plentiful parking, then the opportunity cost of parking in the area is too low. This discourages people from using public transport to get there, which will be get easier with the Luas B1 and the build out of the rest of T21. By charging now you get people used to the idea that driving to the area isn't a free-for-all.

BTW it's not an out of town estate, when it was built that was case but not now, it's been swallowed by development on all sides. It's turning from a suburban development to a semi urban one.

markpb

spacetweek wrote:

Mark the problem is that if you provide unrestricted, plentiful parking, then the opportunity cost of parking in the area is too low. This discourages people from using public transport to get there, which will be get easier with the Luas B1 and the build out of the rest of T21. By charging now you get people used to the idea that driving to the area isn't a free-for-all.

I don't agree with this at all. You're telling people from south of the estate that they'll have a Luas in approximately three years so they should get used to not driving now? No parking, no buses but a Luas in three years so it's all okay.

I agree that we shouldn't be encouraging car use but you can't say it's acceptable to grow an area of massive employment and provide no extra public transport in the short term - that's just foolhardy but it seems to be the way things are done in Dublin.

Bus routes could be provided in a matter of weeks if there was any urgency. DB already have buses lying around that can't be used and painting bus lines doesn't take long so what's the hold up?

Carawaystick

kearnsr wrote:

I worked up there for 6 months and came from Lucan via the bus and Luas.

Public transport (it appears to me any ways) is there.

Lucan is not south of Sandyford though, is it?

DerekP11

What makes Sandyford Ind. Est. so special????

Apart from the fact that traffic wardens have being blitzing (unfairly) the place for the last few months, its just like every other Ind. Est that has an age profile over 20 years. They weren't built to cater for so many cars/car users. Plain and simple really. Most will note that newer additions to Sandyfsord, such as Microsoft, built an under ground car park for staff. But even that can't cope. Everyone drives, because they either have to or just want to. The Luas did very little to solve rush hour congestion in the estate. Its main function is to get people into the city centre from the P n R, not the other way round. The biggest improvement to rush hour traffic in Sandyford Ind Est. was actually the M50 extension. (says it all really) But now with lane closures in place for the Luas extension, its a mess again, despite a widening of other roads in the estate.

It has nothing to do with the layout of the estate. Sandyford was fine for years. The problem is the same oul problem. As soon as car ownership and employment grew, places like Sandyford were caught out. No thought was given to serving the estate with public transport amid this growth. Its the same all over Ireland with housing industrial estates etc. In this country we extend existing bus routes to serve new housing and industry. Bad idea really. The DTO are a shambles. They are still operating as if the horse hasn't bolted. John Henry has his merrymen bolting doors, while the horse is half way to China. Using Sandyford as an example, a simple survey of employees and their commutes, provides the information you need. Replicate this across all the big employment estates in Dublin and you have the info you need to impliment solutions. But no, we think T21 will solve our woes, based on plans from engineers that are based on plans from years ago. Extending Luas to Cherrywood won't solve Sandyfords traffic problems, no more than Metro West will solve the problems on the Snugborough road, Blanch road north or in estates such as Ballycoolin, Rosemount or the Blanch Corporate Park.

The biggest crime is the mess that exists in recent industrial estates, such as Park west. This was just assumed to be car dependent. The county councillors did a ****ing great job there alright. Don't forget Citywest either. The developers were made put in a flyover. Once again we see the assumption that the car will be the star.

Its not rocket science, but unfortunetly the people in charge think or at least treat it, as if it is.

Where are my pills?:eek:

antoinolachtnai

It's nothing to do with the age of the place. It has to do with the fact that Stillorgan Industrial Estate was designed as just that, an industrial estate. It was not designed to be a business park, which is quite a different thing.

DerekP11

I think you're being pedantic.

How it was designed and what its operating as now, has everything to do with the age of the place.

markf909

I look at the queues of traffic every day on the Leopardstown Roundabout and wonder how folks can tolerate that situation day in day out.
But Derek has made the point perfectly, the planners never even considered that anyone going to these shiny offices would consider anything other than their car. DB don't care because O'Connell st does not run through them.

I get the Luas and walk or the comical 114 which is only useful leaving Blackrock, trying to catch it from Sandyford to Blackrock, well I think the odds of that happening are up there with winning the lotto.
Yesterday I just walked from the Lep roundabout to Blackrock and still managed to make it most of the way before the 114 caught up

antoinolachtnai

DerekP11 wrote:

I think you're being pedantic.

How it was designed and what its operating as now, has everything to do with the age of the place.

I'm not being pedantic. Can't you see the difference in transport requirements between an industrial estate (low number of employees per acre, one-story buildings) and a business park (many employees, multistorey buildings)?

When this place it was built it was industrial units. If it had continued to be used as industrial units, it would have been OK.

This idea that up until 10 years ago, nobody knew what they were doing is just wrong.

robfitz

I'm not going to directly comment, but I'll refer to this thread [thread=2055038108]Sandyford Land Use Transportation Study[/thread]. I'm not sure the report is finalised yet but it'll give you an idea of what the council is thinking.

DerekP11

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I'm not being pedantic. Can't you see the difference in transport requirements between an industrial estate (low number of employees per acre, one-story buildings) and a business park (many employees, multistorey buildings)?

When this place it was built it was industrial units. If it had continued to be used as industrial units, it would have been OK.

This idea that up until 10 years ago, nobody knew what they were doing is just wrong.

Totally disagree with you. Robinhood Ind Estate is as it was built many years ago. (low number of employees per acre etc etc.) The increase in car usership within the last 10 years has had a terrible effect on it. The entire Ballymount area suffers from the same problem. I can list off many more ind. ests. built in the 70s that now have woeful traffic congestion. (none of which have had any office block development)

For you to say that Sandyford would have been ok if it had continued to be used as industrial units, is in my opinion, misguided. Sandyford was doomed to car dependency whether office blocks went up or not.

antoinolachtnai

Sure, but there would be a lot fewer cars. When Sandyford was in industrial units, very few units had more than 5 or 10 cars outside.

There are certainly some buildings in Ballymount which are not just industrial units. (For example, Ballymount Cross Business Estate). The odd one is even some sort of retail (for example, Richardson's Tiles).

Most of these estates (certainly Ballymount and Sandyford, don't know the Robin Hood) are also used to some extent as link roads.

markpb

DerekP11 wrote:

What makes Sandyford Ind. Est. so special????

Nothing. I think every major employment centre in the city should be well served by public transport

DerekP11

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Sure, but there would be a lot fewer cars. When Sandyford was in industrial units, very few units had more than 5 or 10 cars outside.

There are certainly some buildings in Ballymount which are not just industrial units. (For example, Ballymount Cross Business Estate). The odd one is even some sort of retail (for example, Richardson's Tiles).

Most of these estates (certainly Ballymount and Sandyford, don't know the Robin Hood) are also used to some extent as link roads.

I think we're singing the same hymn, but in different keys.