VCR Bill (UK law)

Arcto

Sorry if this has allready been discussed but i couldnt find it on arnies...

Whats the story with the aparently new rcva law and what the hell does it mean for airsoft/ redwolf airsoft company!?

Im suposed to be ordering off them tomorow....

o1s1n

RCVA? Are you talking about the VCR? (Violent Crime Reduction bill)

padmundo

Oisín there is a change in law being brought in to HK. I don't know what it entails exactly but that's why they are selling off the revolvers as collectors pieces as a a few items won't be available after it's passed. It's probably that...

o1s1n

padmundo wrote:

Oisín there is a change in law being brought in to HK. I don't know what it entails exactly but that's why they are selling off the revolvers as collectors pieces as a a few items won't be available after it's passed. It's probably that...

:eek:

This is news to me. Anyone got any info? Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up.

ondafly

taken from airsoftscotland

Violent Crime Reduction Act

Now law, the provisions affecting airsoft will most likely come into effect in October 2007. After then, only a limited number of people will be able to buy realistic imitation firearms. Amongst those will be airsofters.

The exact details are still being discussed, but the indications at present are that a player will have to a member of a site to prove that they are an airsoft 'skirmisher'. The sites, retailers, the ABA and the Home Office are still woring on the fine detail, and we will give more information as and when we can.

If you have any specific questions, please call and speak to Frenchie, the current Chair of the UKARA, the retailers association.

o1s1n

ondafly wrote:

taken from airsoftscotland

Violent Crime Reduction Act

Now law, the provisions affecting airsoft will most likely come into effect in October 2007. After then, only a limited number of people will be able to buy realistic imitation firearms. Amongst those will be airsofters.

The exact details are still being discussed, but the indications at present are that a player will have to a member of a site to prove that they are an airsoft 'skirmisher'. The sites, retailers, the ABA and the Home Office are still woring on the fine detail, and we will give more information as and when we can.

If you have any specific questions, please call and speak to Frenchie, the current Chair of the UKARA, the retailers association.

I thought that's what the OP meant but then padmundo mentioned a law coming into effect in China.

bullets

ondafly wrote:

The exact details are still being discussed, but the indications at present are that a player will have to a member of a site to prove that they are an airsoft 'skirmisher'.

Theres gonna be some big changes in the UK due to real steel
incidents Looks like laws may start getting
re-jigged.

I really hope that that type of thing does not happen here.
Its Madness. If I can be a member of some club and not have to PAY
a cent and DONT have to attend no problems.....

But as someone who wants to mainly collect stuff thats cheap and
looks like the real thing I sure as hell dont want to be having to prove
I am some member of a club simply to allow me to buy nice stuff.

I am hopeing the laws and procedures dont get as bad as real steel one
if they do airsofters are Fu*k*d Royally.

~B

hoplite

Only a newbie but for what its worth I would not have a problem voluntarily signing up as a member with an airsoft association or a club.

One thing is certain our copy cat legislators and the reactionary media will be all over any tightening of the laws as they apply in the uk. There might be some merit to having ones ducks in a row so to speak over here in advance of any changes that might happen to Irish law.

Shiva

if it comes to a choice between something similar to the UK's VCR exemption for airsoft, or an outright ban, I know which I'll be supporting....

iceage

S**t....just when I thought it was all going so well, I have a sneaking suspicion that if it does go belly up, so to speak inth e U.k. then like most things it will only be a matter of time before the "baying" will start here.

So if and when it does, where do we sign up? i.e. AAI or where else?:(

ED E

Sites/Clubs is how the VCRA exemtion does it.

Shiva

iceage wrote:

S**t....just when I thought it was all going so well, I have a sneaking suspicion that if it does go belly up, so to speak inth e U.k. then like most things it will only be a matter of time before the "baying" will start here.

So if and when it does, where do we sign up? i.e. AAI or where else?:(

Its not going to go belly-up int he UK, thats for sure.

The original draft of the Violent Crime Reduction bill was calling for a complete ban on all replicas, but the UK version of our IAA (Can't remember their acronym) lobbied very successfully for an airsoft exemption. As the bill is written now, in order to buy or own airsoft guns, you need to be registered with a site, and this comes into effect in October.

o1s1n

UK airsoft sites governing body are the ones dealing with the whole thing. (I think anyway)

http://www.ukasgb.org.uk/vcrb.php

iceage

sorry guys jus had to bail foa min...

iceage

Is hoplite right, should we start signing up with say HRTA, I was only speaking to him yesterday asking permission to mention his site in an E mail that I have just sent earlier this evening, to a painball site down my way who might consider the idea of Airsort at his site,

o1s1n

I'm going to rename this VCR Bill seeing as that's the way the conversation has gone and I've really had no clarification as of yet about this 'RCVA' thing. Which may even just be a confusion of acronyms anyway.

hoplite

Its easy for me to suggest that we sign up to a club or association. This however takes peoples time and effort to organise and we cant just take for granted that people will set something like this up for us. If it happens then all credit to those who would sacrifice their time for the benifit of others.

I just wanted to put that on the record particularly as I am new to the boards and airsoft. Older wiser heads have already put some thought into this I imagine. Some sort of volantary registration scheme might be disireable ultimately even if we are not forced into it by legislation.

It would protect the sport particularly as some idiots will sell AEGs to kids or not inform customers of the correct usage and safety precautions.

I'll shut up now

o1s1n

hoplite wrote:

Its easy for me to suggest that we sign up to a club or association. This however takes peoples time and effort to organise and we cant just take for granted that people will set something like this up for us. If it happens then all credit to those who would sacrifice their time for the benifit of others.

I just wanted to put that on the record particularly as I am new to the boards and airsoft. Older wiser heads have already put some thought into this I imagine. Some sort of volantary registration scheme might be disireable ultimately even if we are not forced into it by legislation.

It would protect the sport particularly as some idiots will sell AEGs to kids or not inform customers of the correct usage and safety precautions.

I'll shut up now

I take it you haven't heard of the Irish Airsoft Association (IAA) yet? We're currently setting it up to deal with these problems. There is a thread where you can add your name to a preliminary member list at the top of this forum.

hoplite

o1s1n wrote:

I take it you haven't heard of the Irish Airsoft Association (IAA) yet? We're currently setting it up to deal with these problems. There is a thread where you can add your name to a preliminary member list at the top of this forum.

Thanks o1s1n I have in fact read most of that thread and you are absolutely right the IAA is the obvious body to setup a register initially.

Not really appropriate for me to suggest it new to sport and boards etc...

I believe you are active in the IAA? And you also give up your time freely to act as a moderator here so for someone like you to suggest it is far more appropriate.

And I'll be signing up to the IAA as a member after I've been out to my first skirmish

So much for promising to shut up

o1s1n

Just because you're new doesn't mean you're not entitled to join conversations. Fire away! Sure half the stuff that comes out of this lot is complete waffle anyway

hoplite

Expect an increase in waffle so

o1s1n

odonnell wrote:

indeed...... now back to the heart of this thing....

JG, or DBoys.

Tokyo Marui.

Now back to the real heart of this thing as it IS kind of important you know

odonnell

ach, airsofters areexempt, it shows they are TRYING, at least, to protect sporting activities and enthusiasts to some degree. All we need to do is tomake damned sure we continue on our merry little way, play the sport, dont bandy our AEGs around like theyre vietnam relics, and we will be fine. The problem that IAA face is how to become an 'organisation' and after that - will they have the right to be recognised and to speak for the populace?

edited

hoplite

odonnell wrote:

ach, airsofters areexempt, it shows they are TRYING, at least, to protect sporting activities and enthusiasts to some degree. All we need to do is tomake damned sure we continue on our merry little way, play the sport, dont bandy our AEGs around like theyre vietnam relics, and we will be fine. The problem that IAA face is how to become an 'organisation' and after that - will they have the right to be recognised and to speak for the populace?

TM are for rich fathers who have no time for washing dishes or making love to their wives.... bring on CA.

I like both on and off topic So TM is like the Mercedes Benz of the airsoft world.

Anyway I'm off to find some sand to stick my head in and hope that some bright spark doesnt go and ban the sport before I get my first AEG

Given that its due to land next week I'm optimistic it usually takes our TDs several years to get off their holes.

Unless of course sombody calls into Joe Duffy :eek:

odonnell

Well nobody is banning it in the UK, its just Brown trying to tie up loose ends mate. What that bill says is that they are trying to protect sporting activites - and you have to remember the legacy of Dunblane is still around in the UK and has left a very, very bitter tastein the mouth of such Scottish MPs - i have no doubt the bill will be fine for all involved. Remember also, that the UK, and Eire - will toe the line when it comes to meeting Eurpean standards too and they cant be seen to be too harsh in comparison to Germany, France, etc.

All this bill means is theyre toughening up on those who would do harm, and those who wouldnt, need to be legit and prove that fact to some degree.

If ireland takes it on, they wouldnt necessarily backtrack on legalising airsoft in the first place - i mean from all angles it looks as though people are fighting FOR our corner as opposed to trying to ban it outright. That, for me, is quite refreshing.....

No worries!

edited

hoplite

Good points well made and thank God for Europe. What happened in abbeylaragh has the ability to evoke a similar sensitivity in Ireland. We can hope people take a measured response as you suggest.

Anyway 3 clone AEGs or one TM for the same money is whats influencing me right now. When my first clone snaps in two I might try for something more expensive.

hoplite

Knockers of clones might suggest that picking up a clone AEG might snap it in two

Fallschirmjager

i think the key is to get every new member here to realise we stand together or fall individually. i am guessing but i would say the numbers here have easily doubled maybe even trebled since i joined this board. thats a good thing.

at the rate we are getting new members we need to reach a critical mass and let the government realise that there is a lot of VAT and jobs here....and we are inching closer to that. however every new member should realise that there is a sword over our head and the way to beat it is together.

i think it is vital to get everyone on board on the safety issues with airsoft, aeg handling, aeg travelling, goggles etc and we need to ensure every new person here knows the rules of airsoft. fortunately the IAA has done a lot on this.


oh and odonnell...its platoon...the movie...:D

ambro25

There's currently no reason to believe any Statute recently enacted in the UK, will have any bearing on airsoft in the Republic of Ireland - in which no such thing as a "VCR Bill" has even been mooted yet.

As and when this happen, if ever, then hopefully by then the IAA will have matured into 'something' else than a few good-natured and well-meaning declarations, and be in a position to parlay with the Powers that Be for 'airsoft exception' clauses comparable to the UK ones - which will have benefitted from proof of concept in the UK in the intervening time.

So, what else is there to say?

Endof.

Now, can we get back to TM-bashing (just for needling o1s1n )?

odonnell

ambro25 wrote:

There's currently no reason to believe any Statute recently enacted in the UK, will have any bearing on airsoft in Ireland - in which no such thing as a "VCR Bill" has even been mooted yet.

As and when this happen, if ever, then hopefully by then the IAA will have matured into 'something' else than a few good-natured and well-meaning declarations, and be in a position to parlay with the Powers that Be for comparable 'exception' clauses - which will have benefitted from proof of concept in the UK in the intervening time.

So, what else is there to say?

Endof.

Now, can we get back to TM-bashing (just for needling o1s1n )?

thats essentially what i was getting at in my points (i did actually raise points) before having to justfy myself. Maybe i didnt appear quite so eloquent but then... thats ok too :rolleyes:

Hivemind187

ambro25 wrote:

There's currently no reason to believe any Statute recently enacted in the UK, will have any bearing on airsoft in the Republic of Ireland - in which no such thing as a "VCR Bill" has even been mooted yet.

As and when this happen, if ever, then hopefully by then the IAA will have matured into 'something' else than a few good-natured and well-meaning declarations, and be in a position to parlay with the Powers that Be for 'airsoft exception' clauses comparable to the UK ones - which will have benefitted from proof of concept in the UK in the intervening time.

So, what else is there to say?

Endof.

Now, can we get back to TM-bashing (just for needling o1s1n )?

Actually we have our own, slightly more draconian, version of the VCR in the Criminal Justice Bill as laid down by my all-time favorite minister, McDowell.

Currently the IAA are working with the IAGB to position ourselves so that we can lobby for an exception (should the need arise).

At the moment Airsoft exploits the wording of the CJB Firearms section where it states that any device with a muzzle velocity at or below 1joule is not considered a firearm and as such covered by the provisions of the firearms act.

In the UK the government is currently drafting an exception (called a "defence") for Airsoft as a sport. The UKARA and the UKAGB are currently working with the government towards that end.

For all intents and purposes, nothing has changed and there is absolutely no need to panic.

Fallschirmjager

Hivemind187 wrote:

Currently the IAA are working with the IAGB to position ourselves so that we can lobby for an exception (should the need arise).

thats good to hear, in fact its really good to hear....a a big thanks from me..

ambro25

Hivemind187 wrote:

In the UK the government is currently drafting an exception (called a "defence") for Airsoft as a sport.

AFAIU, the exception is required in the UK because the VCR Bill specifically mentions "lifelike replicas" (or wording to that effect) - which of course befalls airsoft bang to rights.

So we in IE exploit the 1J Rule, as do UK airsofters with comparable J/muzzle velocity/other definitional niceties in relevant UK Acts - but IE Legislation is currently silent as to "lifelike replicas", whereby :

Hivemind187 wrote:

For all intents and purposes, nothing has changed and there is absolutely no need to panic.

Was well understood

Boston

Fallschirmjager wrote:

well i just read what you have added...and it appears to be just this..perhaps you can enlighten us what your thoughts are on the UK crime bill...

I'm actually trying to obtain a view. I've read and heard various things about how this will affect us down south, including some doom's day scenario I'm slow to repeat,most seem to be rumor will little hard fact. As such i find the off-topic comments more then a little frustrating.

Basically I'd like to know.

1) Will this law mean that should we want to play in Britain or the north we will have to be registered.
2) If yes will it have to be a UK club or will and Irish one do.
3) If an Irish one will do, how does a club go about being listed as 'official' for lack of a better word.
4) Same as 1) but what if I just want to buy from the UK?

These questions are fairly important as it will severely limit the game here if you can't buy from our closest neighbour or play there.

ambro25

I think you'll find it's Northern Irish who'll increasingly come down to play in the South - e.g. see what happens between France, Germany and Belgium: BE and DE have fairly draconian legislation relative to FR, whereby BE/DE airsofters go over to play in FR any occasion they get.

As for buying from the UK, why would you want to? They're the most expensive all-around!

Hivemind187

Boston wrote:

I'm actually trying to obtain a view. I've read and heard various things about how this will affect us down south, including some doom's day scenario I'm slow to repeat,most seem to be rumor will little hard fact. As such i find the off-topic comments more then a little frustrating.

Basically I'd like to know.

1) Will this law mean that should we want to play in Britain or the north we will have to be registered.
2) If yes will it have to be a UK club or will and Irish one do.
3) If an Irish one will do, how does a club go about being listed as 'official' for lack of a better word.
4) Same as 1) but what if I just want to buy from the UK?

These questions are fairly important as it will severely limit the game here if you can't buy from our closest neighbour or play there.

1) Unlikely, chances are you will just be restricted from transporting your own Airsoft units and will have to rent at the site.
2) Again, registering to play an English site will more than likely not be required.
3) You'd probably have to talk to the UKARA or the IAGB's venues wing.
4) Right now there is no restriction on purchasing from England or for them to sell to folks outside of the UK. Since we operate under different customs rules I'm sure that a work around can be found.

Hivemind187

Fallschirmjager wrote:

thats good to hear, in fact its really good to hear....a a big thanks from me..

Thanks.

... you could all learn a lesson from this man

odonnell

ambro25 wrote:

I think you'll find it's Northern Irish who'll increasingly come down to play in the South - e.g. see what happens between France, Germany and Belgium: BE and DE have fairly draconian legislation relative to FR, whereby BE/DE airsofters go over to play in FR any occasion they get.

As for buying from the UK, why would you want to? They're the most expensive all-around!

Would i be right in saying that no matter WHAT happens - the ROI wont necessarily fall in line with the UK (on a matter which is obviously not aimed at killing airsoft), but will more than likely form its own view - which....they have already done by legislating in favour of the 1J rule? Theres no reason for them to basically backtrack and undo that legislation - the worst that could happen is , yes, we show we seriously are in it for sport.... no worse than a paintballer.

Hivemind187

ambro25 wrote:

AFAIU, the exception is required in the UK because the VCR Bill specifically mentions "lifelike replicas" (or wording to that effect) - which of course befalls airsoft bang to rights.

So we in IE exploit the 1J Rule, as do UK airsofters with comparable J/muzzle velocity/other definitional niceties in relevant UK Acts - but IE Legislation is currently silent as to "lifelike replicas", whereby :



Was well understood

Yes the UK bill does refer specifically to lifelike replicas however it does provide a defence for "re-enactors" which would cover mil-sim which incorporates Airsoft.

The UK do not exploit a 1joule restriction, their laws are different and for the most part less restrictive, the fact that te majority of the sites in England adhere to the 1 joule limit is a function of practicality rather than "law" (there are a few sites who are limited to 350 for AEG's and around 400fps for snipers.).

ScumLord

I don't know if laws like that will catch on over here. The English like their rules and regulations they hate lose ends. The Irish government is lazy and will either go legal or illegal.

I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of registrar, the only problem I can see with it is if airsoft is controlled it may allow for a monopoly to arise (another Irish favourite) meaning the cost of airsoft sores.

odonnell

ScumLord wrote:

I don't know if laws like that will catch on over here. The English like their rules and regulations they hate lose ends. The Irish government is lazy and will either go legal or illegal.

I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of registrar, the only problem I can see with it is if airsoft is controlled it may allow for a monopoly to arise (another Irish favourite) meaning the cost of airsoft sores.

There is one more thing to consider, upon which i touched earlier - the UK is actively trying to take gun and knife crime out. There has been a rise in these two over the last 20 years in the UK so that nowadays 11 year olds are being shot, children are shooting bullies, people regularly get knived in the street for looking at you the wrong way etc... the UK simply HAS to be seen to be trying to do something proactive - and this is one more simple measure of control. Not MUCH control, but an unexercised one nonetheless.

As i said before - Dunblane still rings in the ears in Scotland, and guns are in the schemes [housing estates]. They have to do something and im all for that. But it wont lead to anything nasty for us and our sport - hell, even after Dunblane all they did was introduce tighter licensing and controls.

Im sure airsoft is not big in their priorities....and as such, why should it be for the ROI?

Hivemind187

ScumLord wrote:

I don't know if laws like that will catch on over here. The English like their rules and regulations they hate lose ends. The Irish government is lazy and will either go legal or illegal.

I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of registrar, the only problem I can see with it is if airsoft is controlled it may allow for a monopoly to arise (another Irish favourite) meaning the cost of airsoft sores.

Assuming the government is lazy is a mistake. They are career politicians whose future prospects rely on manipulating public opinion. Public opinion in Ireland does not differ too far from that in the UK so it is important to realise that if something is working somewhere it can be easily copied elsewhere (the Personal Injuries Assessment Board is a perfect example of new system being based on the current Italian set up).

Regarding a register and monopolys, it is unlikely that one would arise since the unit are legal there is no reason to place restrictions etc. Moreover, should local merchants attempt to control the market in the interests of driving up prices they would only be shooting themselves in the foot. There is a very small number of Airsofters in Ireland and certainly not enough to support more than one or two stores (Shiva will probably confirm this), if punitive prices were in place players would drop off which would damage the operators commercially.

Shiva

Hivemind187 wrote:

There is a very small number of Airsofters in Ireland and certainly not enough to support more than one or two stores (Shiva will probably confirm this), if punitive prices were in place players would drop off which would damage the operators commercially.

Definitely....Airsoft is very young over here, with very limited participation.
Yes, we're growing rapidly, but certainly not enough that someone can make a living solely out of being an airsoft retailer. Remember, eirsoft.ie is a sideline for me. Although I have plans to increase my range and expand in the long term, its not going to happen this week or next month...the sport is too young.

If I thought there was already enough of a market out there to support a physical retail store with a large stock of high end guns, believe me it would be open by now, and I'd be running it

You also have to remember that airsofters in general are more than happy to import stuff themselves from Asia, so if my prices (or anyone elses) were to creep up past what it would cost to import from HK, I'd be out of business.

ScumLord

Moreover, should local merchants attempt to control the market in the interests of driving up prices they would only be shooting themselves in the foot.

You'd think that but Irish people just tend to pay the asking price and moan about it afterwards. There's been loads of cases of monopoly's in Ireland, it's getting better but the mentality of charging as much as the competition instead of undercutting them is common. It was only when foreign shops came in that prices in general dropped in Ireland.

Assuming the government is lazy is a mistake. They are career politicians whose future prospects rely on manipulating public opinion. Public opinion in Ireland does not differ too far from that in the UK

True but Irish politicians are lazy, I wouldn't be surprised that instead of putting the small bit of effort it would require to ensure airsoft isn't abused they would just made it illegal.

Unless IAA gets set up proper and is ready to spend years talking and pestering the government they won't even consider our side.

ScumLord

Shiva wrote:

Although I have plans to increase my range and expand in the long term, its not going to happen this week or next month...the sport is too young.


You also have to remember that airsofters in general are more than happy to import stuff themselves from Asia, so if my prices (or anyone elses) were to creep up past what it would cost to import from HK, I'd be out of business.

In a monopoly situation it would be illegal to import from outside Ireland (you can only buy from registered Irish companys).

Are you selling to the UK shiva? It looks to me like you could give them a run for their money.

Hivemind187

ScumLord wrote:

You'd think that but Irish people just tend to pay the asking price and moan about it afterwards. There's been loads of cases of monopoly's in Ireland, it's getting better but the mentality of charging as much as the competition instead of undercutting them is common. It was only when foreign shops came in that prices in general dropped in Ireland.

True but Irish politicians are lazy, I wouldn't be surprised that instead of putting the small bit of effort it would require to ensure airsoft isn't abused they would just made it illegal.

Unless IAA gets set up proper and is ready to spend years talking and pestering the government they won't even consider our side.

Scumlord, I dont think you quite get the economics of this.

The monopolys you are talking about were government monopolys, state controlled bodies providing power, telecoms and entertainment etc. Since deregulation that has all changed. Further, if a company were to be found operating unfair business practices they would be dragged into court.

Secnd, the government is not lazy. they are unscrupulous,greedy power mongers. You dont get there without hard graft.

As far as it goes with the political end of things the IAA is trying to put itself into a position whereby it can have all of the groundwork done for the government BEFORE the fit hits the shan, so it is easier and more effective for everyone if they do what we want rather than introduce and all out ban. The objective is not to cater to laziness but to the opportunity to appease both sides which is more beneficial image wise.

Its all very complicated.

Hivemind187

ScumLord wrote:

In a monopoly situation it would be illegal to import from outside Ireland (you can only buy from registered Irish companys).

Are you selling to the UK shiva? It looks to me like you could give them a run for their money.

Thats not a monopoly, its an importers license which is entirely different.

ScumLord

The monopolys you are talking about were government monopolys, state controlled bodies providing power, telecoms and entertainment etc.

Banks, chain stores (dunnes, tescos), and the food industrys have all been at least accused of price fixing and running monopolys.

Hivemind187

ScumLord wrote:

Banks, chain stores (dunnes, tescos), and the food industrys have all been at least accused of price fixing and running monopolys.

Price fixing has been an accusation however a monopoly they are not.

Dunnes are not tesco or super value. AIB is not BOI or Ulster. Tayto are not Walkers etc

This is however irrelevant to the topic as a whole. There cannot be a monopoly where there is more than one company with a share of the market (see Microsofts trial). While it might be a concern if a ban on independent imports were to be put in place all that price hikes would do would be to chase players out and reduce the potential growth of the industry.

This too is a moot point since it has nothing at all to do with either the VCR or the CJB.