100 Euro to the first person to fix my BB issue

Morf3h

This BB problem has baffled me for 3 months now and i've still no idea what's wrong.

So here goes:

Set-up: 3Mb BB from Broadband. Netgear Router/Modem WR54g (or what ever it is)

Problem: From approximately the hours of 5pm to 2am, our BB connection begins to deteriorate steadily, giving a QoS of around 15%, and constant connection drops with the router.

From early morning until the afternoon/evening it is perfect and i get ~240kbps download speeds.

Checking my router logs i notice that the entries "LCP down; Loss of synchronisation" are occuring over 100 times a day in the logs. WIERD!

So i called BT in May, to report the problem. Initially they couldn't see any problem, since i called them during the day and the problem wasn't manifesting itself.
So i did some speed tests and took screen shots. Emailed them to BT and then they listened. They did a line test, no problem, so they sent engineers to the exchange. Report back: no fault.
So they sent an Eircom guy out to the house. He couldn't find anything wrong with the box outside the house so it must be an "internal fault" he said.
My Dad built our house, so he connected the router directly into the socket where the connection came into the house. No difference. I tried 3 different routers, no difference.
So i called BT back and forth over the next few weeks telling them it was total bull.

FYI the line has worked perfectly for the past 8 years up until May-ish.

Any ideas?

paulm17781

Is there security on your wireless? Someone is probably getting home from work and using your account to download a load of stuff.

Also, do you have a filter on your phone line? Maybe try changing that.

eve

Is there a contention issue? Did your provider make any changes on their end around May-ish?

Morf3h

1. I use MAC address filtering.

2. No they told me blatantly they use a contention ratio of 24 and no more

Sponge Bob

Strikes me your line is tapped and there is another BB router 'on it ' somewhere local which is why you cannot log in ( LCP failure is a login type problem) .

If you turned off the router for a while , rang BT, and BT 'found' you still logged in then that would be the proof. You need second line support to check for you by arrangement .

If the proof is there then report it to the guards and let them find the culprit .

Morf3h

You need second line support to check for you by arrangement .

Second line support...

what is that?

watty

Mac filtering doesn't work:
You can easily sniff ARP traffic and then spoof the mac when the traffic for it ceases

Rebeller

paulm17781 wrote:

Is there security on your wireless? Someone is probably getting home from work and using your account to download a load of stuff.

Morf3h wrote:

1. I use MAC address filtering

Mac address filtering isn't any security whatsoever as mac addresses can easily be spoofed. Do you have your connection encrypted using WEP or even better WPA. If not the most likely explanation is indeed a wireless leech.

This should concern you, not only from a speed/operability point of view but more so because you have no idea what any possible leech is using your connection to download. Remember it'll be your external IP address that will show up in website logs.

If you haven't already done so encrypt your connection immediately and report the suspected intrusion to your ISP and possibly the gardai.

EDIT: What Watty said

Morf3h

You need second line support to check for you by arrangement .

Second line support...

what is that?

Morf3h

watty wrote:

You can easily sniff ARP traffic and then spoof the mac when the traffic for it ceases

hmm interesting. Do you have any links to tutorials or anything?

Cheers,

bk

Morf3h wrote:

hmm interesting. Do you have any links to tutorials or anything?

Cheers,

Turn off the wireless completely on your router for a few days and connect directly via ethernet and see if that makes any difference.

You can easily check if someone else is using your router, by going to the devices page and checking how many devices are connected to your router.

rrpc

I have heard of this problem before. It usually relates to how far you are from the exchange and the quality of the copper between you and the exchange.

The person I heard it from had a 2Mb connection which ran at 2Mb all day until about 7pm when it went completely. It wouldn't come back until some time after 10pm.

He was advised to drop to 1Mb and hasn't had a problem since. Basically everyone else on the line came onstream when they got home and the data flow slowed to a trickle or stopped completely.

I now stake my claim on the €100

Snaga

Your modem should give you some stats on your line. The important ones you need to know are...

(1) Line attenuation.
(2) SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio)

Line attenuation: This ones important, if your in the high 50's or anywhere in the 60's then your lines pretty damn long in any case. But the fact that its ok in the day means its at least short enough to provide decent service when its not 'noisy' out there.

The other Value you want to look for is SNR. The higher this is - the better.

What is likely happening is as others in your area come online (Their lines will be carried in the same bundle of wires as yours is back to the exchange) - you start getting cross-talk (interference) on your line - this is effectively noise and it eats into your signal strength (bandwidth).

As the Noise increases - the SNR Margin will decrease and disconnects may occur if it dips too low.

Find the SNR value during the day - and then check it into the evening and see if it reduces.

If your attenuation is quite high - and you find that your SNR margin dips in the evening and coincides with your drops in service - then there may be little you can do but drop to a lower service with your ISP and see if that improves matters.

Let us know how you get on. I think you'll likely be holding onto your 100 if the above ends up being the case

bushy...

It could be lighting or (electrically) noisy appliances in home(s) nearby . Know someone with samish problem , ran graphs for a week , clear answer.

watty

Morf3h wrote:

hmm interesting. Do you have any links to tutorials or anything?

Cheers,

Ermmm I think I might get banned if I posted that here. How to protect against Hack is OK on the forum. How to do the hack isn't needed for protection in this case and thus not allowed to be discussed here.

rrpc

Snaga wrote:

Your modem should give you some stats on your line. The important ones you need to know are...

(1) Line attenuation.
(2) SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio)

A lot of modems don't give SNR data, I know I've a couple that don't.

And as the first person to point to the problem, I am not at all impressed with you saying the OP shouldn't have to pay out

Snaga

rrpc wrote:

And as the first person to point to the problem, I am not at all impressed with you saying the OP shouldn't have to pay out

Ah but the payout is for fixing the problem - not pointing out what it is (And if its a dodgy/very long line - fixing it might not be easy!)

rrpc

Snaga wrote:

Ah but the payout is for fixing the problem - not pointing out what it is (And if its a dodgy/very long line - fixing it might not be easy!)

In fairness I didn't just point out what it was, I also told the OP how to fix it.

Granted, the fix requires a service downgrade, but he didn't specify that the fix had to maintain his current (virtual) speed . Considering his current service is not running properly for 9 hours of the day I'd have to say anything that runs for 24 hours has to be an improvement.

He may get away with 2Mb, but that might be too much as well. I'm at the wrong end of a 4 mile trip to the exchange with an attenuation of 63dB and I can just about get 900k.

I'd be very disapppointed if he welshed

dub45

The netgear will provide the line stats you need no problem:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.htm#top

Morf3h

Regarding Line Attenuation and SNR, they are normal up until the point when the connection drops off, and they both go to zero, along with my connection speeds (up and down)

Apologies i should have mentioned i've monitored both from my router before.

It is truly baffling.

bigpaddy2004

Did you try a different modem?

dub45

Morf3h wrote:

Regarding Line Attenuation and SNR, they are normal up until the point when the connection drops off, and they both go to zero, along with my connection speeds (up and down)

Apologies i should have mentioned i've monitored both from my router before.

It is truly baffling.

It sounds part of a phenomenon which has been reported here before several times where the signal deteriorates at a particular time of day. People have raised the issue of street lighting as a potential cause but given the time of year it is hardly likely to be the cause in your case.

Snaga

Morf3h wrote:

Regarding Line Attenuation and SNR, they are normal up until the point when the connection drops off, and they both go to zero, along with my connection speeds (up and down)

Apologies i should have mentioned i've monitored both from my router before.

It is truly baffling.

And what are the values of each?....

Sponge Bob

RRPC described a form of interference called crosstalk ( dsl lines in the same area interfere with each other)

streetlights only come on at c.10pm these days

rc28

Morf3h wrote:

3Mb BB from Broadband.

From early morning until the afternoon/evening it is perfect and i get ~240kbps download speeds.

Am I the only one who thinks that 240kbps as your *best* speed on a 3mb package is unacceptable anyway??
Morf, go to www.speedtest.net and run the test, then post your results on here , when your line is running at what you would call "normal" daytime speeds.

dub45

rc28 wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks that 240kbps as your *best* speed on a 3mb package is unacceptable anyway??
Morf, go to www.speedtest.net and run the test, then post your results on here , when your line is running at what you would call "normal" daytime speeds.

Before jumping to conclusions either way I think its important that the poster gives us an idea of what is usual line stats are?

batman2000

As the query came up about Line Attenuation and SNR. My Netopia says
Line Attenuation
24/13 dB

Why are there two values mentioned??

rc28

dub45 wrote:

Before jumping to conclusions either way I think its important that the poster gives us an idea of what is usual line stats are?

Yes but the fact is that he's calling 240kbps "perfect" so he really shouldn't be paying for a 3mb package if that is the case.

watty

Line attenuation is due to thickness of wire and lenght of cable.

SNR is how much real signal compared to noise. In countryside if nothing else near the cables the Line attenuation on a long line could be high (=bad) but the SNR still OK.

In an industrial area close to exchange the Attenuation could be low (=good) but the SNR could also be low (=bad) due to arc welders or whatever.

Attenuation: Low = good, too high = no signal.

SNR: low = no signal, medium = medium speed only, high = fast connection possible.

Higher speed DSL needs a better (higher) SNR (Sginal to Noise Ratio).

zilog_jones

Is your phone used a lot and are you using suitable microfilters?

In my house, whenever a phonecall ends, all the stats on the modem drop to 0 and it has to reconnect. This is despite only having one phone socket with a filter connected correctly (I've tried a new filter as well).

rrpc

zilog_jones wrote:

Is your phone used a lot and are you using suitable microfilters?

In my house, whenever a phonecall ends, all the stats on the modem drop to 0 and it has to reconnect. This is despite only having one phone socket with a filter connected correctly (I've tried a new filter as well).

I've heard of that happening before. The cause was found to be a bad/old cable between the pole and the house. Some of the real old telecoms cable was stranded, and over time the strands break down at connection points and elsewhere from lightning strikes, UV, UFO and bird crap

I came across one recently with a house a mile closer to the exchange than me, and at the best they were getting 192 from a 1024 connection and exactly what you're describing kept happening.

lucernarian

Good post watty.

I'd also like to point out that with the frequent misunderstandings about it, 240 kBps would be 80% of the usual speed for a 3 Mbps line. 240 kbps would be 10% of the usual speed.

Downloads with an Internet browser are reported in kB (kilobytes), so multiply by 8 to get the kilobit value, and then add some more to get the actual connection speed. I suspect that the OP meant to say 240 kBps.

It's frustrating to see problems with a line with as low as 24 dB attenuation. I suggest writing a letter to the company secretary of the broadband provider, and possibly eircom anyway as they maintain the line. Tell them the hours of the problem and demand action etc.

I also suggest keeping that €100 for an eircom or BT engineer to stay until after 5 and pay the premium rate or get him to stay on the QT, just so that a professional will see the exact problem. Bribes can work wonders.



zilog jones, does that only happen when the phone is ringing, or does it happen whenever the phone is picked up?? You could put two filters in series. I think that would help. I think a filter only attenuates DSL spectrum noise by as little as 40 dB, so a large amount of noise would still interfere with a weakish line.

Jackz

Sounds like the problem I had, Eircom guy found (I asked him to check it as geting a new line over was going to be a pain in the ass) a dodgy connection at the pole no problem since.

lucernarian

rrpc wrote:

I've heard of that happening before. The cause was found to be a bad/old cable between the pole and the house. Some of the real old telecoms cable was stranded, and over time the strands break down at connection points and elsewhere from lightning strikes, UV, UFO and bird crap

I came across one recently with a house a mile closer to the exchange than me, and at the best they were getting 192 from a 1024 connection and exactly what you're describing kept happening.

Real old telecoms cable is aluminium grey and white twisted pair solid core, with possibly galvanised iron cables used outside. That stranded stuff is most likely the flat "extension cable" ****e sold in large DIY chains and the like. Or it could be alarm cable. Neither of which are installed by eircom men. Some types of the black cable which goes from pole to house had 3 stranded wires and 4 solid ones, but I've only ever seen the orange and white solid wires connected.

Btw, bigpaddy2004's suggestion was a very good idea. Try a different modem.

zilog_jones

To_be_confirmed wrote:

zilog jones, does that only happen when the phone is ringing, or does it happen whenever the phone is picked up?? You could put two filters in series. I think that would help. I think a filter only attenuates DSL spectrum noise by as little as 40 dB, so a large amount of noise would still interfere with a weakish line.

It seems to happen only after I hang up, and sometimes it's OK. I can't remember the SNR and attenuation stats (I'm not at home right now) but IIRC they weren't too bad. I could try putting the filters in series, as I do have two of them now

The phone cable to my house is underground the pavement, and goes along the wall in our front garden and into the front of the house. Most or all of the outside cable was replaced a year or two ago due to water damage (it used to go all along the front of the house and under the front door).

I've never seen the modem sync at anything lower than the 2048/256kbps I'm supposed to be getting.

(PS sorry for hijacking - I made a thread about my problem before here)

lucernarian

Let me know if it fixes the problem.

zilog_jones

Actually, which way would I connect the second filter? I forgot about the whole 1 input, 2 outputs thing...

lucernarian

The first filter should be plugged into the phone socket, with the modem connected directly with the cable to the modem part of the filter.

The second filter should be plugged into the telephone part of the first filter and then the phone can be plugged into the telephone part of the second filter.

If there is a modem port in the second filter, it can be ignored IIRC.

axer

OP: Disconnect everything plugged into the telephone line in your house no matter what it is.

Just plug in the router *without using a filter* and see if that stays going.

If it still has problems then try a different router with the exact same scenario (i.e. unplug everything).

Please the results here.