Crazy Money but Poor Lifestyle...

justfortherecor

Guys, just looking for some advice here.

I've talked to some people I work with, but their views would be obviously biased as they've already decided on the conundrum that I'm currently deliberating over.

I'm doing an internship with an investment bank in London at the moment, namely in Corp Finance. The course lasts 10 weeks, but I'm essentially none the wiser whether I want to do it or not as a full time career after spending 8 weeks already in the office.

The job is interesting, I feel as if I'm actually contributing something to the team at an early stage and its probably one of the better jobs for me to do straight out of college. The money is great as well, no complaints there. If I took it full time, I could be getting around 3 times what I could be making in the best graduate position I could get back in Ireland.

But of course, there's a catch. The hours can be ridiculous. They don't try and dress it up once you start. They basically make you face a decision. Commit fully to the job in every facet of your life, or, try in vain to maintain a sociable lifestyle, cutting down on your working hours and putting your position in the office at serious risk.

I've found my weekends have basically disappeared. Either I'm working in the office; or if I have any free bit of time on a Sunday, I'm usually too wrecked to do anything other than sleep. Weekdays are tough as well, working past midnight is a common occurence. As such, my experience in London has been seriously limited. I've struggled to make any friends at all outside the office as I simply dont have the time to keep appointments to meet them. The amount of times I've had to ring up guys to tell them I wouldnt be able to make it out because I have to finish something in the office is embarrassing at this stage.

I often question whether its worth it. The trade offs are pretty big. Either I take the job and forget about any financial worries for the forseeable future, or else I just take a job back in ireland doing the 9-5 without having to sacrifice my 20s as well.

I'm worried if I took the latter route though, that I could end up kicking myself for ever turning down the opportunity to work full time in banking. But, then again in a few years, my priorities may have changed. I may want to settle down and get married and have a family. A banking career is not too conducive to that sort of lifestyle...

As you can see, I'm hopelessly lost. I honestly dont have a clue what I want to do. I think I'm thinking about it too much and its driving me mad!

Has anyone else had a similar experience? Is there anyone out there who could offer relevant advice to me on what they think would be the good choice?
It may help me in making my decision. Ultimately, its going to be my own decision to make, but outside advice would be greatly appreciated. I've had a pretty carefree few years in college etc, but this is the first major sign that the real world is frighteningly close! I think I'm caught in the headlights!

Cheers,

bushy...

Take it , it will give you good headstart in a few ways, good experience , good on your cv , good for your bank balance after college.You don't have to stay in it for ever.

gary the great

i work to live, not live to work.....

Don't they say most bankers in london burn out in their late 20's/early 30's? but often have the cash saved up to take a handier job?

Maybe do it for a year or 2, save the cash and then move home with good work experience behind you and a large bank account.

Its a toughie though!

fret_wimp

as you say, its completely your decision, but if it was my decision, well, my philosophy is that life is to be lived. Work should complement this. If you feel this job is letting you live life to the full, you enjoy it and dont mind the hours, then totally go for it. if you really feel tired all the time, that your missing out on a life outside of work and that you just work, sleep, work , sleep, then chuck it in. your only in your 20's. loads of time for big bucks. I would not like that job, a nice 9-5 with the occasional day where you have to work a bit longer suits me perfectly, and lets me live my life. its your decision at the end of the day though.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

the_syco

Do it for 6 months to a year. Preferably a year. Then you'll have enough experience to satisfy most "minimum experience" requirements.

But stay at least 6 months, esp as you like it. Any less is not usually seen as experience, and it'll be of benifit when applying for other jobs.

Also, in 6 months time, there won't be a load of students graduating, and the job market may be easier to get into.

Tazz T

But IMO you're encouraging companies to take people for a ride. You may get a good salary but when you add up all the unpaid overtime you're getting ripped off and you're faciltating this company to continue to do this.
Haivng said that, I agree with the above. Do it for a few months and use them to get experience.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Freckles01

Have you only lived in London for the past 8 weeks or that was when the internship started?
I also work for an investment bank in London. Thought i was on great pay when i started (esp in comparison to Ireland) but the cost of living in London is HUGE so it doesnt seem that much after a while (then you ask for a raise )!!
I think its a great experience and having that you worked for an investment back in the 'Don looks really good on your CV. Id advise you to stick with it for maybe 2 years... earn up some money so you then have the choice to do whatever you like, there are loads of job openings around if you want to change company after 6 months to one that wont expect you to work every hour of the day.

fits

I'd say stay there for the moment. Make lots of money and retire at 30... I know someone who did that, seriously...

nesf

Tazz T wrote:

But IMO you're encouraging companies to take people for a ride. You may get a good salary but when you add up all the unpaid overtime you're getting ripped off and you're faciltating this company to continue to do this.

Welcome to the world of salaries. You are essentially paid for the overtime. It's part of the basic job etc.

dudara

Unless there is an overtime clause written into your contract, then extra hours are covered by your salary.

I think most good employers will give a few extra days holidays here and there for people who are working lots of overtime.

nesf

dudara wrote:

I think most good employers will give a few extra days holidays here and there for people who are working lots of overtime.

Or pay you well above what you could expect for a 40 hour week at your age/experience.

damnyanks

go into capital markets, specifically ECM - the hours are lighter and the pay is strong.

Overall there are lots of options in the land of investment banks to make a strong salary and work fewer hours. Ideally you want to make it into a markets related job if you are concerned about your work life balance, although some desks will make you slog it properly. Expect at least 12 hour days at a minimum.

If you are questioning can you do it chances are it isnt for you (m&a). As you said you are expected to give your life up, I've heard real horror stories. If you are in someone like goldman sachs, morgan stanley, credit suisse or ubs you'll be shafted up the ass and then some.

cold_filter

A freind of mine does some really crazy financial stuff in London,his basic salary is 60K STERLING as a graduate! (w*nker!) And he can earn up to 120k sterling in bonuses but as posters have said above he has no life, his in the office at 6am and on a good day he may not leave til 8pm and is regularly in for 8 hours on a saturday though he does try to keep sundays free. So he does about 70 hours per week. Its tough but he likes it and the money is good.

I would like to do it others wouldnt its a choice you will have to make OP.

GoneShootin

Take the job for at least a year. If you're health [physical/mental] is suffering at that stage then I'd recommend you pack it in.

If you last the year, continue until about 27/28 years old. Re-evaluate your desire to have a family. If the money is as good as you say it is, you will have hopefully made enough money to settle pretty much anywhere you want start the family.

I wouldn't leave it pass me by without at least giving it a serious shot.

ceidefields

If you want to make tons of money fast, investment **** is the way to go. Seriously, you think your entry-level salary is good, wait until you see what the top people earn. If you're a graduate now, you could work in investment banking until the age of 30 and then change to something else.

It becomes quite the lifestyle once you've clawed your way into the upper ranks. Also, you do get used to the hours. Your work becomes your life basically, but that's true of many jobs in London and New York these days. At least you'll be paid well for what you're doing.

The best of luck with whatever you chose.

keefg

Take the money!!!

GREED IS GOOD

damnyanks

It's worth noting the second something serious happens you're out on your arse not a second thought about it. Place I worked at had none of the tech / media / telecoms juniors left after 2002

If you want a life get into something like credit risk. Huge demand, good salary, reasonable bonus 10 - 14 hour day.

ceidefields

Isn't that the way it is with every job though? The economy takes a wrong turn and it's bye bye.

imalegend

2 be honest id give my left arm 2 be in your position..Im currently trying to get myself into your position..i have finished uni and have to do a masters to get into it as my degree didn't have enough number crunching in it.I have spoke to people who work in it and you do have to work hard but it a few years sacrifice for a better future life as you will hopefully have enough money to be able to chance your arm at something else by your 30's.Plus it is good work but your life does suffer...I have heard when the next bunch of graduates come in you get a bit of relieve work wise but dont quote me on that!!

Stick with it and if you really cant hack the pace/lifestyle get out but at least give it a proper chance.

The Corinthian

Unless you want an easy job that will at some stage be replaced with a robot that is the choice you'll have to take in pretty much any profession. Good IT, finance, engineering, legal, etc. jobs you'll be worked to the bone and burnt out by your late twenties, however once you get past that you will be earning silly money and in a position to take a far more relaxed role at that.

An easy job, on the other hand, will afford you lots of free time and leave you in a lower-middle class income bracket for life. That's the trade off.

TBH, if you're good at what you do and you enjoy it then I think you should keep with it. An easy job may afford you weekends, but you'll learn to loath it like many others in your position - more so because you need a greater challenge. If you're concerned about having a social life then consider molding yours around work - this is commonplace given lots of others will be in the same boat as you.

Afuera

The Corinthian wrote:

An easy job, on the other hand, will afford you lots of free time and leave you in a lower-middle class income bracket for life. That's the trade off.

This statment sounds like nonsense straight from the book of Puritan work ethics. Equating an easy job with a low salary and a hard job with a high salary is neither here nor there since what's easy for one person is hard for another and vice versa.

Anecdotally, I know a salesman, who has an easy job (for him anyway, since he's a natural), only works half days and is able to pull in 10 grand a month. Einstein had an easy job, pushing paper in a patents office while he was writing his first theory of relativity. Your ultimate success in life depends more on what your goals are and what you do to achieve them rather than how hard or easy your current job is.

The Corinthian wrote:

TBH, if you're good at what you do and you enjoy it then I think you should keep with it.

I agree. The OP should give it a shot, see if they like it, and then either continue with it or move on after they have a year behind them. They should not stick it out though just for the money. That's a miserable existence that far too many people fall for.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Afuera wrote:

This statment sounds like nonsense straight from the book of Puritan work ethics. Equating an easy job with a low salary and a hard job with a high salary is neither here nor there since what's easy for one person is hard for another and vice versa.

That's rubbish. It may not be true in all situations but there's a pretty conclusive correlation. If you look at any of the ultra-successful in the world, generally speaking they will have started in business and worked themselves silly for a few years to get a company on its feet. To get rich with an easy job takes bucket-loads of luck. People won't pay you much to do an easy job because they can get someone else for cheaper.

That Einstein comment is irrelevant. He was never wealthy. We're not talking about world-changing scientific discovery here, we're talkign about money.

IB in London is something I'd definitely consider in the future. But OP, I was always under the impression that when the city-boys party, they do it in style!

Afuera

Sean_K wrote:

That's rubbish. It may not be true in all situations but there's a pretty conclusive correlation. If you look at any of the ultra-successful in the world, generally speaking they will have started in business and worked themselves silly for a few years to get a company on its feet. To get rich with an easy job takes bucket-loads of luck.

So we've found another believer of the doctrine then! You seem to be equating success with wealth. I think you'll find that there's probably a bigger correlation between being lucky (right place, right time) and being rich than there is between working hard and being rich... but of course you're free to believe whatever mantra you want.

Sean_K wrote:

People won't pay you much to do an easy job because they can get someone else for cheaper.

Just because someone finds it easy to do a particular job does not mean that they can be easily replaced. Do you reckon Pablo Piccasso found his job hard?

Sean_K wrote:

That Einstein comment is irrelevant. He was never wealthy. We're not talking about world-changing scientific discovery here, we're talkign about money.

It's there to highlight that you can be a success even if your current job might be considered "easy". The OP is questioning their career path and it is therefore relevant to that.

D

I'd work my ass off and save up. Then when you can't stand it any more, move on.

the_syco

Afuera wrote:

Anecdotally, I know a salesman, who has an easy job (for him anyway, since he's a natural), only works half days and is able to pull in 10 grand a month. Einstein had an easy job, pushing paper in a patents office while he was writing his first theory of relativity.

The job the OP is going for may be easy as pie for a "natural". But it may be hell on earth if he isn't a natural.

The Corinthian

Afuera wrote:

This statment sounds like nonsense straight from the book of Puritan work ethics. Equating an easy job with a low salary and a hard job with a high salary is neither here nor there since what's easy for one person is hard for another and vice versa.

Anecdotally, I know a salesman, who has an easy job (for him anyway, since he's a natural), only works half days and is able to pull in 10 grand a month. Einstein had an easy job, pushing paper in a patents office while he was writing his first theory of relativity. Your ultimate success in life depends more on what your goals are and what you do to achieve them rather than how hard or easy your current job is.

I never suggested there are not exceptions to the rule as there will always be exceptions that we can dredge up, using anecdotal evidence, to prove our point. If we want to base our advice on that then I would recommend to the OP that he quits his job and sets up his own company on the basis that I know more than one very successful and wealthy entrepreneurs who did exactly that.

Unfortunately, the reality is that while exceptions exist, that is how things tend to pan out depending upon the path you take. Tough, professional jobs that burn out your twenties tend to lead to a very wealthy lifestyle in your thirties onwards, while easy dead-end jobs end up, well, in a dead end.

On the other hand he might get lucky and get the best of both Worlds. Which do you think is more likely?

Wagon

If i were you, I'd quit. That's just me though, Id prefer to be a little bit strapped for cash and have a social life, enjoy myself rather then pricking about in an office regardless of how much I'm getting paid. My opinion on that is there's not much use making a fortune in a job and not having the time to spend in on a few pints or to enjoy the nice apartment your in. Get a different job over in England, but just don't come back here though, it's still a right ****hole!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Afuera wrote:

So we've found another believer of the doctrine then! You seem to be equating success with wealth.

But we're not talking about success in the grand scheme of things, we're just talking about money here. Success is completely different. You're misinterpreting my post

Afuera

The Corinthian wrote:

Tough, professional jobs that burn out your twenties tend to lead to a very wealthy lifestyle in your thirties onwards, while easy dead-end jobs end up, well, in a dead end.

These descriptions of the types of jobs you were refering to was noticeably missing from your original post. You were originally equating hard jobs with wealth and easy jobs with poverty, which I disagree with.

Afuera

Sean_K wrote:

But we're not talking about success in the grand scheme of things, we're just talking about money here. Success is completely different. You're misinterpreting my post

Maybe I did, it's just you appeared to use them in place of each other.

Sean_K wrote:

If you look at any of the ultra-successful in the world, generally speaking they will have started in business and worked themselves silly for a few years to get a company on its feet. To get rich with an easy job takes bucket-loads of luck.

Afuera

the_syco wrote:

The job the OP is going for may be easy as pie for a "natural". But it may be hell on earth if he isn't a natural.

Which is why I suggested that they try it for a year and see how they feel about it then. They don't need to look at this as their only path to success however, and taking an "easier job" after that point does not mean that they'll be any less successful.

The Corinthian

Afuera wrote:

These descriptions of the types of jobs you were refering to was noticeably missing from your original post. You were originally equating hard jobs with wealth and easy jobs with poverty, which I disagree with.

Pedant.

newestUser

The Corinthian wrote:

Unfortunately, the reality is that while exceptions exist, that is how things tend to pan out depending upon the path you take. Tough, professional jobs that burn out your twenties tend to lead to a very wealthy lifestyle in your thirties onwards, while easy dead-end jobs end up, well, in a dead end.

No offence, but I think what you're saying in this thread is too vague and general to be helpful (though I see your logic).

Tough professional jobs that burn out your twenties can still be quite demanding in your thirties!

I can't offer any good advice (never been in the OPs shoes) but personally, I'd give it a go. It's the only way you'll know if it's something that you could do for the medium term. And if it doesn't work out, c'est la vie, you gave it a try, you discovered it wasn't for you, go try find something that you'll be happier doing. Welcome to the muddled, groping-around-in-the-dark, confusing world of Adult Careers.

(man I'm patronising)

gary the great

Wagon wrote:

If i were you, I'd quit. That's just me though, Id prefer to be a little bit strapped for cash and have a social life, enjoy myself rather then pricking about in an office regardless of how much I'm getting paid. My opinion on that is there's not much use making a fortune in a job and not having the time to spend in on a few pints or to enjoy the nice apartment your in. Get a different job over in England, but just don't come back here though, it's still a right ****hole!

Have you ever lived in England? England is a lot more of a ****hole than Ireland.

nesf

Afuera wrote:

Anecdotally, I know a salesman, who has an easy job (for him anyway, since he's a natural), only works half days and is able to pull in 10 grand a month. Einstein had an easy job, pushing paper in a patents office while he was writing his first theory of relativity.

Bluntly, the majority of people aren't exceptionally talented at anything. This would include a large portion of hard working professional types who put in the hours but lack any real edge in their area. Most people will need to put in the daily grind to inch their way towards their goal. The really talented people get to side step all this but only a fool actually believes that they are talented because they avoided the traditional route.

The thing is, you don't need to be a highly accomplished person in anything in order to be happy.

the_syco

nesf wrote:

The thing is, you don't need to be a highly accomplished person in anything in order to be happy.

What he said. A few people are happy living in a free house, get the dole, and work part-time (off the books). And there are some who are happy to work from dawn to dusk in some field in the back arse of nowhere.

Happiness is a state of mind. As for the natural who earns 10 grand a month: does he take half days cos he can, or because that's all he can take per day before it gets to him, and he has to leave?

gary the great

out of curiosity, how much you gonna be earning?

The Corinthian

newestUser wrote:

No offence, but I think what you're saying in this thread is too vague and general to be helpful (though I see your logic).

How specific can I be to a complete stranger on the interweb?

csm

OP, i was in a similar position to yourself but decided not to take the money and commit myself to being broke but having my twenties back, which i've enjoyed thoroughly thus far!

if i was doing it again I would work at it for a year then reevaluate. a year is nothing in the grand scheme of things and if you decided to ditch the job you'd probably spend that time figuring out what else to do anyway.

work. build up some cash, and in a year or two you'll be able to have some money to fall back on if you do quit. plus you have some excellent experience under your belt which will stand to you in the future.

yes it means you'll miss out on a social life, but it's only for a short while and the benefits of working will outweigh the costs, in my opinion.

just make sure to look after your health. it's high stress work and you can end up putting yourself in harms way if you don't look after your body. and whatever about a social life, a job is not worth messing yourself up over.

good luck with your decision!

nesf

csm wrote:

a year is nothing in the grand scheme of things and if you decided to ditch the job you'd probably spend that time figuring out what else to do anyway.

+1

A year can seem like an eternity when you're young etc.

damnyanks

The first year is taken up by training and on the job learning. You get **** all during that year.

It depends on the type of "corporate finance". If its basic banking for companies probably not worth it. If you're in capital markets or m&a then its worth it if you make it too your 30's.

Typically as a junior the job isnt demanding(On the brain), you just need stamina and attention to detail. The only reason its the high achievers get in is because of the overall competition.

Ignore the bull**** about "I like having a life" the majority of people I've met that ever gave me that line just go home and watch TV. What people dont realise is your team will normally become your "friends". You'll go out but nothing crazy.

No shame in being a workaholic.

nesf

damnyanks wrote:

No shame in being a workaholic.

No shame in not being one either though. The biggest problem in some companies is the pressure you can be under to become a workaholic. It's fine for people who are inclined that way but it can break some people.

justfortherecor

Guys, first off thanks for all the advice and tips ye've offered in your messages.

It seems that most people agree to give it a shot, and to be honest, the more I've thought about it recently, I think this is what I will do. I can see me kicking myself next year if I decided to pass up on the opportunity. As one person put it, a year or two isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. I think I'm (rather naively) just desperately trying to hold onto my college lifestyle, but I realise those days are well and truly over now.

Again, thanks for all the advice etc, its certainly helped me in making my decision. Hopefully, all will go well from here.

Cheers

(damnyanks: the job is in an m&a related field, so the hours are tough but the rewards are there as you said.
Garythegreat: I'm not willing to discuss figures, but the graduate salaries are quite a bit ahead of what's available in Ireland [see my original post], and I must admit, the salary was also a major factor in my decision.)

damnyanks

Graduate salaries are pretty much the same across the board. You're looking at 35basic from the bigger guys up too 45.

Smaller companies will be varied. Different bonus structure for grads. The basic is pretty much the same if you are a trader / banker or the guy who rings up other companies with an invoice number.

newestUser

justfortherecor wrote:

As one person put it, a year or two isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

Totally. When I was 21/22/23 a year was a huuuuge period of time. Different story now, and if I have to put up with a less than perfect scenario for such a length of time in the hope of gain (personal or financial) down the road, I'd have no problem.

justfortherecor wrote:

I think I'm (rather naively) just desperately trying to hold onto my college lifestyle, but I realise those days are well and truly over now.

lol you can sing that again! Although I don't think it's the case that COLLEGE LIFE=FUN TIMES and WORKING LIFE=DRUDGERY, you'll never get back the days+feeling of being 18-22 in college. You can go back again as a mature student, and it can be brill, but it's still not the same, because you're that bit older. You're better off biting the bullet, and trying to find out what suits you, and what doesn't in the wider scheme of things. So give the banking thing a shot!

And I agree with damnyanks, many people who say "I want to have a life" spend their evenings in front of the telly or in the pub. Maybe when you have a family, you'll want to spend time with them, but if you're young and single, if you really like your work, giving up Eastenders/Simpsons/whatever won't seem that bad.