Wrestling v bjj

cowzerp

Any opinions on which would dominate a fight? just thought i'd get a healthy debate going on? which and why? we might learn some things!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgahDezNBqA

droc

What type of fight?

Pure wrestling (totally unaware of subs and MMA in general)?

MMA

Back in the day Royce and others tapped out bigger stronger wrestlers all the time and caught it on video. So if it's an ignorant wrestler that's not sub aware he's likely to get subbed.

These days that doesn't happen so much, less and less people are getting subbed even against quality BJJ guys. A wrestler who's sub aware is hard to beat because of athleticism, technique and their excellent base.

Street fight

Much the same as MMA with the added factor of getting slammed on concrete (not to mention Glass, syringes etc in the fantasy world of anti bjjers :d)

Kickboxing

No idea but it would be bloody hilarious!!!

DROC

arybvtcw0eolkf

All else being equal. If the BJJ'er has never done any No-Gi wrestling I think the wrestler would take it.

yomchi

Glass on the ground, syringes lying about - a fantasy world hey? Must be nice living where you live

Roper

I just stepped outside my door there and I COULDN'T MOVE but there was a syringe stuck in my foot, then an eight year old lobbed a bottle at me... terrible!

yomchi

I could have told you that before moving to Cabra!!

dlofnep

Wreslter controls whether the fight stays up or down. Depends on who the better boxer is IMO.

Nothingcompares

The concept of wrestling versus the concept of BJJ in a fight? What kind of fight?

Wrestling is a rather vague term. Is Marcelo Garcia a wrestler?

Who'd win in a match, a rugby player or a soccer player?

Khannie

Nothingcompares wrote:

Who'd win in a match, a rugby player or a soccer player?

The rugby player.

Am I right?

Nothingcompares

Well a rugby player is able to play on the ground and standing up, but a soccer player can use his head...

cowzerp

Nothingcompares wrote:

Who'd win in a match, a rugby player or a soccer player?

Actually a hurler would smash them both up-:D

takeda shingen

my da can beat your da!

The Shane

If only there were some sort of grappling body that could put together a rule set that would reward the efforts of both takedown wrestler and submission wrestler. Then we could organise a competition in Turkey and prove that crosstraining is the only way to go.

I love how the original request for a healthy debate was ignored.

Shane, The

Colm_OReilly

I love how the original request for a healthy debate was ignored.

It was easier to attack the question than to put forth reasons for either side.

Paul - next time start off simpler, like which colour MMA gloves we like, and build it up from there.

Colm

cowzerp

Colm_OReilly wrote:

It was easier to attack the question than to put forth reasons for either side.
Colm

I know about bjj but dont have any experience of wrestling but the more i see of it the more effective i think it can be in conjunction with boxing or thai, obviously a bit of all will work best but would actually like to learn more about why wrestling is good.

eoghan.geraghty

The superior wrestlers advantage is in choosing where the fight will happen, standing,ground or clinch.

GalwayorBust

If you were to take an average at a midwest (US) grappling tournament. You would find that even without submission skills the wrestlers have a higher winning percentage. Give them a few months of submissions and your in real trouble.

Nothingcompares

Far be it for me to lecture guys that have actually been in a MMA ring on the requirements for a MMA fighter but in my (perhaps naive) head I see an MMA fighter requiring:

Good conditioning
Good Wrestling
Good Submission
Good Boxing
Good MMA (the combination of all these together, for example, striking in the clinch, or on the ground).

I define wrestling in this context as grappling while standing. In a MMA fight you either want to take your opponent down to the ground so you can attempt to submit him or beat him by Ground and Pound (strikes (punches/elbows)) or you want to prevent your opponent from taking you to the ground. A Good wrestler like Chuck Liddell or Mirko Crocop often prevent their opponents from taking them down so they can try and win the fight by out striking them on their feet (standing). A good wrestler like BJ Penn will take a guy down and try and submit him.

As the lads have already said, good wrestling is important because it allows you to control where the fight takes place - standing or on the ground. In the UFC, you often hear the commentary refer to a fighter like Matt Hughes, Josh Kosheck or Dan Henderson as a good wrestler or having good wrestling. This is because these guys have trained since childhood in the art (or arts) of wrestling. In Josh Koschecks case, he was highly accomplished as a collegiate wrestler. This means, while he was at university he was basically training full time in college wrestling, a style of wrestling very similar to olympic freestyle wrestling. Dan Henderson on the other hand, was a US Olympiian in the art of Greco-roman wrestling. This wrestling differs from Freestyle or Collegiate/Folk in that your not allowed to grab below the waist to take the guy down. This means - no double or single legs! These guys invariably have monstrous power and excellent upper body control and therefore the ability to pick you up and throw you on the ground like a rag doll. The Freestyle wrestlers are known for lightning fast double leg/single leg takedowns and sprawls.

More rarely, due in part to the ubiquity of college wrestling in the USA and simply its greater effectiveness in application to MMA you see a Judo guy demonstrating great wrestling. Of course, the Judo in MMA pin up boy is Karo Parisyian.

In Irish MMA the role of wrestling is harder to judge. The clinch aspect of MMA is obviously trained by every serious MMA athlete but we don't have anyone competing who has trained vigoursly in the arts of wrestling like the guys in the UFC. Simply because Wrestling is one of the least widely practised martial arts in Ireland. The most notable "wrestlers" in Irish MMA would probably be Pearse Stokes and Mick Leonard (not disrespecting anyone).

If you want to know why Wrestling is Good for mma you just need to watch Randy Couture (HW champion and former Olympic team member) Dan Henderson (Pride MW champion and former Olympiian), RAmpage Jackson (LHW Champion, **** hot college wrestler) and many others.

In my personal opinion I don't beleive in the term "good take down defence". I believe you either have good wrestling or you don't and you're able to use that ability to either stop a guy taking you down or taking a guy down first. Good wrestling, like good bjj, like good boxing doesn't come from learning a few tricks off a tape but hours of practice wrestling against a range of training buddies.

Roper

Nothingcompares wrote:

In my personal opinion I don't beleive in the term "good take down defence". I believe you either have good wrestling or you don't and you're able to use that ability to either stop a guy taking you down or taking a guy down first. Good wrestling, like good bjj, like good boxing doesn't come from learning a few tricks off a tape but hours of practice wrestling against a range of training buddies.

Quoted for truth.

FiannaGym.com

Didnt Nog tell zhivko he could place in ADCC?

rossedge

we gone off the point?

Also any updates on the soccer v's rugby player?

Froot

takeda shingen wrote:

my da can beat your da!

My god can beat up your god.

Nothingcompares

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Didnt Nog tell zhivko he could place in ADCC?

really? that's cool.

Khannie

Froot wrote:

My god can beat up your god.

No way. I have multiple gods forming a flank around your god. He / she / it is doomed as he / she / it is skilled only in grappling and did not take the time to learn any striking or combatives.

Unlucky.

edit: Great post btw NC.