Shannon-Heathrow Saga, More than Just Flights?

Transport21 Fan

Watching this whole hysterical reaction to the loss of a handful of flights and obligatory "march of the 5,000" at Shannon today of "outraged" western groups, I have to wonder if they just played into the hands of Bertie and Co. You would think Cromwell and the Famine had returned to Clare. They acted like something out Fr Ted when the news first broke. On RTE was some representative of Western Hotel groups screaming "It's the West versus the Pale!" like he was in some heighten state of hysteria. It was weird. The amazing thing was the boss of Aer Lingus is from Sligo and the slots are going to Belfast. But almost like a chemical reaction he instantly blames Dublin regardless of the facts.

Since then, we have had the formation of the again, obligatory Lobby group, petitions, victim complexs in hyper-drive and it all looks like a farce especially on TV. The reaction is so completely OTT it almost seems like they were lured into a trap to make them look silly. Micheal O'Leary appeared to be encouraging them along. Even the Bishops going on about "social justice" and ordering their priest to read a special Heathrow sermon out at mass was surreal.

The Government have kept out of it and the boss of Aer Lingus went down to Shannon and gave it to them straight. They have never been stood up to like this before. Especially by one of their own. RTE news reported tonight that the loss of these slots means nothing as business travellers hate Heathrow anyways. It all a hysterical over reaction and half me wonders if this a turning point.

I am starting to think that the Government policy towards Western lobby groups is changing. I think it's a good thing and the West will benefit more in the long run. I have always thought these over-reactive lobby groups in the West cause huge amounts of problems for the country as a whole and even the West itself because often they were demanding something which was not properly thought out.

Schuhart

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The amazing thing was the boss of Aer Lingus is from Sligo and the slots are going to Belfast. But almost like a chemical reaction he instantly blames Dublin regardless of the facts.

I think your whole post is spot on, but in particular I'm delighted that some other soul in the world noticed this genetic Western 'Pale wailing'. The whole Belfast thing is completely disorientating to them.

I don't think we should generalise from the particular with regards to the significance of this for the future. I agree it does have a watershed feel to it when the Government statement amounts to 'our piles are bleeding for you, but stuff happens'. But remember that there's the whole Northern angle to this. I think the only certain thing is that the Northern card trumps the Western card.

For light relief, Shannon's difficulty is Charlestown's opportunity. Knock Airport aren't wasting the opportunity to make a case for their own hub flights, making the Shannon lobby's attempt to paint this as a calamity for the whole of the West look a little silly.

... One region and one airport alone cannot provide the full solution. We have three airports: Cork, Shannon and Ireland West Knock, each capable of facilitating all three types of international services to short haul, to hubs and to transatlantic destinations and each therefore capable of delivering vital connectivity for its own region. ...

Zebra3

I don't think anyone in the Wesht actually seriously expects AL to overturn their decision, but it gives them the excuse to put the begging bowl out in front of the state again.

Welcome to the real world, lads.

Wishbone Ash

As a neutral observer, I thought the televised press meeting yesterday was interesting. Dermot Mannion had requested that the media be excluded but the local representatives insisted that they stay. However, Mr Mannion came across as a calm collected professional while the local reps looked and sounded like irrational noisy faction.

Zoney

The talk elsewhere in the country of Shannon Whingers or the West acting like it's another famine is more absurd and parochial than the actual reactions in the West. Heck it's proving any "anti-Pale" comments to be entirely justified!

dermo88

Its just amusing to see the reactions out there. Its sad to see the jobs go, but we have to face some unfortunate, sad facts, and realities.

As I said before on IRN - People travel where they want to go, not where they are forced to go. If Shannon is not attracting the custom, the passengers, and the airlines, then its existence is threatened. You cannot buck market forced. You can try, and postpone the inevitable, but unfortunately that means the end is much more painful.

Transport21fan has experienced the craziness, and it was not a pleasant lesson. But thats for him to comment on if he wishes.

If it is handled calmly, rationally, then there is a chance. Instead, the regional mentality kicks in. The automatic reaction of the powers that be in such a situation is to "roll eyes, switch off", or, even worse, give the place an even bigger kick in the teeth to teach a lesson.

It could be a turning point. Most people I know attempt to avoid Heathrow where possible in their travel itineraries. Its an overpriced, over policed, over regulated dump, and it seriously needs to be replaced. A mega project along the lines of the new Hong Kong International Airport, which replaced Kai Tak seriously needs to be considered.

So the loss of Heathrow is nowhere near as bad as it looks. The stopover was nowhere near as good as thought, and Shannon is still the 3rd busiest Airport in Ireland, even with this setback.

murphaph

i've not been following this. is it just LHR flights that AL are dropping or is it all SNN flights?

Transport21 Fan

Zoney wrote:

The talk elsewhere in the country of Shannon Whingers or the West acting like it's another famine is more absurd and parochial than the actual reactions in the West.

Zoney, I have heard and seen SOME West of Ireland individuals and groups over the years compare their plight to the famine and Cromwell. This could be anything from not getting planning permission for a house on their land, to the wacky circus surrounding a minor run of the mill gas terminal in North Mayo.

However it is not the full story. There are lots of very clever and highly intelligent people in the West who just get on with developing the region without the arm-waving and phobias. You do not hear much about them, because they are quietly and with dignity working on real tangible efforts and they rarely bring up "it's the Pale!" in any of their approach.

I actually have a lot more respect for WestonTrack now as I see how well they worked the system, although I still believe that their ultimate objective was the wrong one. But this new Shannon group stands for nothing except whinging. There is no objective. Shannon is not entitled to any kind of special status and Aer Lingus is allowed to run their business as they see fit as they are no longer a pure semi-state company.

You are right in that 99% of the people out here do not react like this. It always the same small business and farming groups who scream "ethnic cleansing!" when a road is not funded in Mayo and so on and they are indulge by the local politicians.

If you look at their track record they are actually pretty terrible at getting results. For all the crisis lobby groups here in the West, I would say most of them achieved nothing except make the West look silly.

What happens is politicians indulge such groups, but politicians being what they are for the most part are just paying lip service. What's amazing about this Shannon event is that for the first time that I can recall in my life they were told more or less "tough s h i t e" . This is unprecidented.

I think with the new gorvernment the tide is turning and if so, this will be good for the West because the non-hysterical development groups will control the agenda and proper investment will happen where it is needed.

If you add the Shannon stuff to the Corrib Gas Field carry - Government policy does seem to changing. The fear is gone. No doubt about that.

Transport21 Fan

Schuhart wrote:

Knock Airport aren't wasting the opportunity to make a case for their own hub flights, making the Shannon lobby's attempt to paint this as a calamity for the whole of the West look a little silly.

I was listening to Liam Scanllon the CEO of Knock Airport at a business dinner up here a few months back and he was saying that Knock almost closed down completely a couple of years ago. It was down to 2 flights a day.

The airport is owned by a charitable trust with most of the board members were for a long time clergy who had no business background, and they really only knew about living off handouts and Government grants. It was run with the best of intentions, but not very business like. This near implosion of Knock Airport as a business entity was a huge wake-up call to all the groups in the West when Knock almost folded. The Government were very "iffy" about saving it.

Since then, Knock has been run in a very business like manner, the press relases are all foccusses on passenger growth through marketing and not about "the people of the West demand" anymore. They are on course to have a record passenger throughput at Knock this year and they booked out most of the seats to Boston and New York dispite the Globespan aircraft problem a few weeks back.

Goes to show you that the poor mouth stuff at the end of the might get the West of Ireland some infrastructure, but only a business-like management of this infrastruture makes it work. They found this out the hard way at Knock, but Shannon is still thinking of itself as a "kept woman".

Sligo Business magazine even had an amazing editorial a few months back saying something along the lines of "the West needs to grow up and follow Dublin and Cork's lead by being inspired by their success and emulate it". You could sense a cultural change was happening.

What we saw with that eejit from the Hotel Group screaming like a muppet into the RTE cameras about "the Pale" while shaking his fist was the dying screams of an obsolete dinosaur. I think the Government wanted this to happen and the eejits played right into their hands. Anyone who knows anything about undermining any dysfuntional entity or individual within a process is to play on their weaknesses and allow them to fall into their own trap. Just casually hand them a shovel and their badly thought out impulses will perform the rest for you. This is a masterstroke Bertie and Co are playing in spades at Shannon.

Did'nt Dev see himself as a Clare man and all his crackpot "fair madiens" psychosis was cultivated there? That's what makes me think this latest development as something more than a regional whinge, it carries all kinds of other baggage with it and some of the state's sacred cows are being publically slaughtered. I think the union aspects of this might be sheer terror on behalf of the semi-state and public sector unions that their own days of being "kept women" are over as well.

Grab a bag of popcorn and enjoy the show.

Zoney

Transport 21: the point I'm making is that the West doesn't have a monopoly on nutters. There are plenty of genuinely ignorant people in Dublin who really don't see why anyone should live not only outside a city, but outside Dublin.

As such, the paranoia of some people in the West is not entirely unjustified, but it ends up being displayed in such a way as just to reinforce the prejudices of the ignorant "in the Pale".

It's a vicious circle really.

The problem too is that this country is like the Wild West. It's not remotely properly run. Whoever shouts loudest gets attention. In such circumstances, why wouldn't anyone shout as loud as they can with as ridiculous language as they can summon?

Schuhart

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I think the Government wanted this to happen and the eejits played right into their hands. Anyone who knows anything about undermining any dysfuntional entity or individual within a process is to play on their weaknesses and allow them to fall into their own trap. Just casually hand them a shovel and their badly thought out impulses will perform the rest for you. This is a masterstroke Bertie and Co are playing in spades at Shannon.

I hope you are right, because the combination of Government saying ‘shag off’ and local groups concentrating on how to use the considerable resources at their disposal is what’s needed - instead of Pale wailing.

There’s some indication from the current controversy of the first element being present. As to the second element, I hear what you say about positive vibes in Sligo and Knock suggesting the penny is finally dropping. But where was all the energy in the cause of a common purpose that we see in Shannon when the revision of Limerick city boundary was an issue?

I think what is important is to keep realism in the dialogue. People in the Mid West don’t like what they are hearing, but that’s reality for you. The simple fact is they got massive resources at great cost to the rest of the community for decades and while they might like to forget that inconvenient truth, the rest of us haven’t. If they screwed the chances given to them, tough. They cost the rest of us enough - and, judging from their press statement, Knock Airport would have welcomed the same incentives.

While I'm at it, it is absolutely unacceptable to hear the local branch of the hoteliers federation banging on about where they’re going to get customers when they’ve a Ryanair hub up the road. Whatever you say about Mick O’, he’ll happily fly in as many punters as turn up for handful of shekels. Just find the customers, and he'll move them. How can these people pretend they are businessmen when they can’t see the potential in that?

(And, anticipating the ‘but it’s the connectivity in Heathrow’ gambit that some Shannon advocates throw in to divert attention from when one of their side drops a clanger, a hotelier doesn’t care if you’ve come in from Nairobi via Heathrow or Ryanair have flown you in from a barn in Bavaria for two shillings so long as you need a bed for the night.)

Schuhart

Zoney wrote:

There are plenty of genuinely ignorant people in Dublin who really don't see why anyone should live not only outside a city, but outside Dublin.

I think that statement does not stand up to scrutiny. The reverse is actually the situation. The 'develop the West' crowd have a vocal element who like to tell us that 'quality of life' is something that can only happen West of Maynooth.

murphaph

surely blaming dublin is rather silly anyway, given rhat most tds are not from the city

dermo88

Zoney, I agree. We do have our disagreements from time to time, but when you pull pearls of wisdom like this, its a pleasure to speak with you.

Now, in terms of Airports, for example, Knock should never have been built in Charlestown, or near Knock. The wisest move for developing that region in my view would be expanding Sligo. However, we will never be told of any secondary usage for the likes of Knock as a military facility, and in any case, if it facilitates development, I would'nt complain where the money comes from

If we look at the history of Shannon, you see Irish innovation and entrepreneurial vision at its finest. Ignore the stopover, lets look at the things that were developed from its existence, such as Duty Free. It attracted the American market, because it was the final point on the way to America for refueling. You have companies such as Shannon Aerospace there. All of these built on disadvantage, and sought to turn it around, to the advantage of the region, and the West. We saw Aeroflot use it during the cold War, and in that role, again....free trade....with of all people, the commies.

Pouring money into the West will solve nothing. Targetting tax incentives and focus on sustainable economic development through enterprise will do it far faster, more effectively and better. Shannon is an example of how its done best.

Remember, this is an Airport that was voted the best in Ireland for the past two years, and the best in Europe in the 1-5 Million passenger catagory in 2006. That alone is a tribute to its management. Losing SNN-LHR is a setback, but it will be overcome. To its credit, its got a few decent sized towns/cities nearby, such as Galway and Limerick. Thats got to help.

Transport21 Fan

Zoney wrote:

Transport 21: the point I'm making is that the West doesn't have a monopoly on nutters. There are plenty of genuinely ignorant people in Dublin who really don't see why anyone should live not only outside a city, but outside Dublin.

I don't think anybody is saying that really. There and nutters and ignoramuses everywhere. As a Jackeen myself, I can honestly state that there is a greater percentage of muppets in Dublin than in the West. The Skangers alone make life really difficult in Dublin and they seem to everywhere these days.

In the town in Sligo were I live in there is a general sense of human decency and sincerity which is hard to find anywhere else in modern Ireland outside small towns in the country. It's one of the reasons I moved here.

Zoney wrote:

As such, the paranoia of some people in the West is not entirely unjustified, but it ends up being displayed in such a way as just to reinforce the prejudices of the ignorant "in the Pale".

And it is unfortunate too as that the March of the 5,000 in Shannon yesterday behind bagpipers only results in the rest of the country laughing at them? That's the only effect they produce in Dublin, Cork, Belfast. The West of Ireland's image is damaged by it. Companies are afraid to set up there in case they have to deal with this carry on. Look at how a handful of farmers in Rossport destroyed Mayo's image as a place for multinationals to set up in.

I am talking about a certain instiutionalised victim complex you get in the media and local politicans in the West, which is like some left over from the days when we blamed all our problems in the country on "da Brits". Read some of the editorials in newspapers like the Mayo News - they are like something out of Fr Ted. I recall a few years back some councillor on the Northwest Radio going on about how the West was being "ethnically cleansed to make way for trees" and not once did the host of the show challenge him. It was all stuff like "well, I don't think we are surprised to hear that..." - All I am saying is this kind of stuff creates a negative impression of the West. Mainly because the vast majority of the people out here are nothing like this.

Zoney wrote:

The problem too is that this country is like the Wild West. It's not remotely properly run. Whoever shouts loudest gets attention. In such circumstances, why wouldn't anyone shout as loud as they can with as ridiculous language as they can summon?

Well I can't find fault with you on this. At the end of the day it's the Government's reaction that's the real problem. But I think what happened in Shannon this week looks a lot to me like a whole new relationship between the Government and the hysterical lobbies.

and proper order too.

lostexpectation

the fear is gone?? the goverment is gone

Yoda

I live near Westport. I travel a lot. Heathrow is one of my hubs. I use Dublin to get there. Train to Dublin.

I support the rail link from Ennis to Claremorris. I'd like the option to go to Galway by train, or go to Shannon by train.

But if Shannon doesn't go to anywhere USEFUL, it'd be as unimportant as Knock is.

Transport21 Fan

Schuhart wrote:

I hear what you say about positive vibes in Sligo and Knock suggesting the penny is finally dropping.

It is. Sligo is changing rapidly. It is becoming more and more urbanised. Being a small county it has the same dynamic as Louth does with Dundalk. You hardly ever hear the "poor us" stuff in Sligo anymore. A new paper set up here called the Sligo Post and it looks like something from the future compared to the Sligo Champion. The reporters are all young, and the editorial board has top journalist such as Eamonn Sweeney and many of the articles tend to be sardonic and even poke fun at the obsolete political culture up here.That farmer who ran for TD up here - the one who was arrested for chasing hillwalkers off his land got a handful of votes and was ignored by the media. 20 years ago he would of been elected and carried though the streets of Sligo in a torchlit procession. The Jackie Healy Rae style candidate bombed in Sligo in last general election. It's a quiet revolution, but it's happening and fast.

Knock is really interesting as well. They changed their name to 'Ireland West Airport' which was a huge departure from the past. They lobbied Bus Eireann to have all their intercity up and down the West Coast to serve the airport and other simple but important things like that. I was out there a few weeks back and it has a very modern buzz about the place these days, it looks successful and only because it changed its internal culture and started to act like a real business. I actually have great hopes for the airport now. I think in time it'll overtake Shannon - because they are hungry for real business now. When somebody up here suggested that US troops should use Shannon on their to was Iraq "for the benefit of the people of Mayo" - he was laughed at. Again, 20 years ago this would of been considered visionary thinking.

Shannon is just the last vestage of Dev's Ireland to go and it's being pushed. Unlike Knock it hasn't learned to stand on it's own too feet by itself.

Yoda

Knock? Nowhere near rail. Stupid stupid stupid. It ought to have been at Manulla. Or at least Foxford.

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

When somebody up here suggested that US troops should use Shannon on their to was Iraq "for the benefit of the people of Mayo" - he was laughed at. Again, 20 years ago this would of been considered visionary thinking.

I'm not sure if it will work. I imagine pumping fuel from a ship at Shannon onto a plane is a lot cheaper than using an intervening truck all the way to Knock (although I assume fuel for Knock goes via Galway).

Transport21 Fan

Victor wrote:

I'm not sure if it will work. I imagine pumping fuel from a ship at Shannon onto a plane is a lot cheaper than using an intervening truck all the way to Knock (although I assume fuel for Knock goes via Galway).

I think the storage thanks at Galway are petrol only. I know that the pipe line is only certified for that. I suspect the harbour is too close to residential dwellings for aviation distribution and storage?

Good point though, I would be interested to know who actually supplies the aviation fuel to Knock. I have no idea and can't recall seeing any delivery trucks. Might be McCormack's in Sligo although I am not 100% sure.

Schuhart

For those who like jam on it, someone has started a petition in favour of moving the slots from Shannon to Belfast here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Shannon/

BendiBus

I found this quite amusing

http://atlanticconnectivityalliance.blogspot.com/

Plissken1

http://atlanticconnectivityalliance.blogspot.com/

Haa

It's funny because it's true !

markf909

Thats pure class, one small error though

Supporting Free Enterprise, Democracy and the Irish Peace Proces: Support the Aer Lingus decision to end flights from Dublin Airport to Heathrow and strike a blow against gombeenism and political buffoonery.

corglass

Why no fly Dublin, shannon, london?

Two stops and one plane?

Schuhart

Plissken1 wrote:

http://atlanticconnectivityalliance.blogspot.com/

Haa

It's funny because it's true !

Is it just me or has it mysteriously vanished?

paulm17781

Schuhart wrote:

Is it just me or has it mysteriously vanished?

Don't mess with the West!

markf909

No it still works and they've fixed the typo I pointed out!

Now fess up which one of you put this together?