Iaa

CrazyRabbit

While I appreciate the effort you guys make to help airsoft, I'd like to make something quite clear (from my own personal viewpoint)

I will not be dictated to by an unelected semi-formal group or by individuals within that group as to what I can and cannot do.

As a representative body, you can advise airsofters and provide resources and a voice for them. But you have no actual control over airsofters.

One of the IAA committee members seems to have a problem with me ordering an Airsoft T-Shirt with a slogan on it. In his personal opinion the slogan can be offensive and he feels that I should consult everyone on this forum first before ordering this t-shirt.

Sorry, but I live in a democracy. I do not need to consult anyone about my choice of clothing. If you have an objection to something, then make a nice friendly posts stating your concerns and perhaps offering alternatives. Making sarcastic and aggressive posts will not reflect well on the individual or the IAA in my eyes.

Some people think that just because we are all play the same sport, that we should somehow all rally behind the IAA and agree with their view on how to proceed with airsoft. Nice in an ideal world, but this is reality. I have my own ideas on what is acceptable, on how to advertise and expand the sport. I'm open to ideas and suggestions, and can be greatly influenced by people I respect. But at the end of the day, we are all individuals and will proceed as we see fit, with or without the blessing of the IAA.

I guess I'm touching on a wider issue here. And it can be explained with these questions:
1. How many of the airsoft players know that the IAA made a decision to be a representative body for airsoft only and not a governing body?
2. How many of the airsoft players know the name of the organisation that wants to be the governing body?
3. How many of the airsoft players know who the members are of the IAA committee are?
4. How many members does the IAA formally have (I'll give you a clue, it's less than 1)
5. How many airsoft players have had any input on the decisions made by the IAA?
6. How many players are willing to follow an representative body that has given you no opportunity to have a say in it's goals, methods or beliefs?

So we have a body that claims to be representative of the sport yet has no elected commitee members and no actual members (other than the commitee members)

In short, you can advise, you can represent, but don't preach or dictate. If anyone is going to dictate anything then at the very least it would be the governing body. Get members, and find a way to let them have a say it what is happening. Collect subscriptions, get application forms and get elected! Then and only then can you set rules for your members.

Boston

i don't know you, and I don't know the iaa, but you clearly didn't think through what you did or this thread. You, without permission, put the names on two bussiness on a t-shirt. The people that operate HRTA and Eirsoft may not wish to be associate with you or your actions, thats their right. By all means you're well within your right to buy a t-shirt saying "Airsoft, it kills people and I like to shoot people with my dangerous lethal weapons" but thats could be someone lifelyhood you're messing with there.

Spitfire666

I'd be fairly confidant that neither paul nor tony would care about free publicity. its not like he said "where we train terrorists" and put the hrta name up.
People get worked up over so little. cant wait to see what happens next week.

CrazyRabbit

Boston wrote:

i don't know you, and I don't know the iaa, but you clearly didn't think through what you did or this thread. You, without permission, put the names on two bussiness on a t-shirt. The people that operate HRTA and Eirsoft may not wish to be associate with you or your actions, thats their right. By all means you're well within your right to buy a t-shirt saying "Airsoft, it kills people and I like to shoot people with my dangerous lethal weapons" but thats could be someone lifelyhood you're messing with there.

Yup, granted that I totally screwed up about adding the HRTA and Eirsoft urls to the t-shirt. It was the slogan that this IAA person had issues with though.

I've cancelled the order now and will resubmit it after speaking with Paul and Tony.

And yes, someone could put something totally innapropriate on a t-shirt. But to be perfectly blunt and honest, there is F-All anyone on this board can do to stop them. You cannot dictate to people what they can and cannot put on a T-Shirt. Sorry, but that's the truth. Sure, I hope that anyone who does put an airsoft slogan on a T-Shirt chooses a harmless slogan, but we don't have the authority to approve or block their choice. Should we expect the Anti-Airsoft lobby to stop by the forums so we can approve their slogans?

The fact that you don't know about the IAA is exactly what I'm gettting at. They are trying to represent you, an airsoft player. Yet you don't even know about them.

N.O.I.P.

CrazyRabbit wrote:

ETC: ETC: ETC:

My god man I tell you that I won't waste my time arguing with you so you haul off and have a go at the IAA. A voluntary group that has spent countless hours trying to lay down the ground work upon which a great Airsoft association can be built. Its another fine example of your "F*ck everyone else I'll do what I feel like" attitude.

You really do seem to thrive on argumentative posts. Now for the last time I am through arguing with you. Feel free to reply I'm done reading your posts.

davvowl

ive got an impression of deja-vu here.
just relax, and give airsoft the time to grow up in ireland
its always better if everyone works together in a constructive way.

and remember kids : all the voluntary people who spend their spare time working on something are just trying to conquer the universe, thats right.

RC car fanatic

wheres the love?

o1s1n

RC car fanatic wrote:

wheres the love?

Indeed.

Reminds me of "do what you feel like" day in The Simpsons.

We all have the right to do what we want in this regard. But what happens if we all do? Anarchy. Pandemonium. We need to work together, simple as.

"I'll do whatever the f**k I want, don't dictate to me!" kind of attitudes don't make things any easier for any of us.

Why you feel the need to persist with them is beyond me at this point.

We're not tramping on your rights, we're trying to get this sport together.
But you don't seem to see that.

I'm commenting once and that's it on this matter. It's a complete waste of time.

CrazyRabbit

I pointed out some of the problems with the IAA. Few people would do that because they get the same guilt-trip response that you just gave...."you should all be grateful for the work we do" & "We volunteer our time for your benefit".

If you're not open to criticism then you've already failed as a representative body.

It's not like I came on here screaming "the IAA is crap, they're useless and blah blah blah".

I pointed out some very serious flaws that need to be addressed. It's been shown that the only time the IAA responds is when criticised on the forum. It took a while to get a bit of communication from the IAA, didnt it? Only after a few posts with people complaining about the lack of communication did we got some great feedback and a newsletter. I'm quite hopeful that something good with also come from this thread.

I don't thrive on confrontation. I'm just non-to-shy about standing up and complaining when I feel the need to do so. I'm not shy about standing up for my rights. I'm not shy about pointing out when someone is being a pr**k.

Oh, and NOIP. I ordered that T-shirt before I seen the 'IAA tshirt caption' thread. I had no idea you or anyone else wanted to browse through the slogans and then get the forum to vote on the best one. As soon as I seen that thread, I copied my post into it. A friendly PM to me instead of a sarcastic post and I could have told you that. Talk about being confrontational...

CrazyRabbit

o1s1n wrote:

Indeed.

Reminds me of "do what you feel like" day in The Simpsons.

We all have the right to do what we want in this regard. But what happens if we all do? Anarchy. Pandemonium. We need to work together, simple as.

"I'll do whatever the f**k I want, don't dictate to me!" kind of attitudes don't make things any easier for any of us.

Why you feel the need to persist with them is beyond me at this point.

We're not tramping on your rights, we're trying to get this sport together.
But you don't seem to see that.

I'm commenting once and that's it on this matter. It's a complete waste of time.

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that I AM going to do whatever the hell I want. I'm saying that is it my right and everyone else's right to do so if they want. Some people seem to forget that and think that they can order people about, get them to do what they want or what they think is appropriate. THAT is what I have issue with. If you (not you specifically OISIN) don't agree with someones actions or point of view, then make a friendly post or send a friendly PM pointing out why. There is no need to make aggressibe posts telling people not to do something.

I do have my own thoughts and idea's on how to promote airsoft. Mostly influenced from what I have read here on the board. While I would attempt to get feedback and consensus from everyone, I still retain the right to do what I feel is right. I didn't feel the need to get consensus from everyone about an innocuous slogan on a T-Shirt though.

o1s1n

CrazyRabbit wrote:

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that I AM going to do whatever the hell I want. I'm saying that is it my right and everyone else's right to do so if they want. Some people seem to forget that and think that they can order people about, get them to do what they want or what they think is appropriate. THAT is what I have issue with. If you (not you specifically OISIN) don't agree with someones actions or point of view, then make a friendly post or send a friendly PM pointing out why. There is no need to make aggressibe posts telling people not to do something.

I do have my own thoughts and idea's on how to promote airsoft. Mostly influenced from what I have read here on the board. While I would attempt to get feedback and consensus from everyone, I still retain the right to do what I feel is right. I didn't feel the need to get consensus from everyone about an innocuous slogan on a T-Shirt though.

Your argument reminds me of a Monty Python sketch from the life of Brian.

Stan: I want to be a woman. From now on I want you all to call me Loretta.
Reg: What!?
Stan: It's my right as a man.
Judith: Why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
Stan: I want to have babies.
Reg: You want to have babies?!?!?!
Stan: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
Reg: But you can't have babies.
Stan: Don't you oppress me.
Reg: I'm not oppressing you, Stan -- you haven't got a womb. Where's the
fetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?
(Stan starts crying.)
Judith: Here! I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually
have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the
Romans', but that he can have the *right* to have babies.
Francis: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to
have babies, brother. Sister, sorry.
Reg: (pissed) What's the *point*?
Francis: What?
Reg: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies, when he
can't have babies?
Francis: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
Reg: It's symbolic of his struggle against reality.

CrazyRabbit

Thanks for putting a bit of humor into the thread

Anyway. I've made my points about the IAA and the aggressive, bossy attitudes of some (very very few) people here. The thread can be ignored, or people can act on the points. It is afterall, their right to do either and I can't order them to take any action.

Oh, and sorry if I come across as "I'm going to do whatever the hell I want". That's not the case. Just pointing out that's exactly how people can act and will act if you try bossing them around. It's not nice, but that's how people react to bossy people. The more you try to order people about, the more they are going to rebel so-to-speak.

Boston

Spitfire666 wrote:

I'd be fairly confidant that neither paul nor tony would care about free publicity. its not like he said "where we train terrorists" and put the hrta name up.
People get worked up over so little. cant wait to see what happens next week.

Well you can't speak for either person any more then I can. They might think t-shirt are tacky, who knows. CR acknowledges this point, so fair enough.

I personally think that it doesn't matter what slogan you put on a T-Shirt, some muppet who starts shooting people in the street or some five year old who takes their own eye out because their parents are moronic and buy them a gun, will always have far more sway over public opinion. They don't think the guns are safe and they do feel they are more likely to be used by criminals.

Spitfire666

im not trying to speak for anyone, i was just saying that i know paul well enough that i doubt he could care less if his website is on a t-shirt. of course i could be wrong but i doubt it.
After all, its publicity. and publicity for all things airsoft needs a good kick up the arse.

Irish Trinity

everyone should just chillax there kax and leave it alone

Boston

Spitfire666 wrote:

im not trying to speak for anyone, i was just saying that i know paul well enough that i doubt he could care less if his website is on a t-shirt. of course i could be wrong but i doubt it.
After all, its publicity. and publicity for all things airsoft needs a good kick up the arse.

Airsoft gets loads of publicity, usually very very bad. Fair enough paul may not care, but anyone in a business that engages with this method of publicity will tell you there are inherent risks since you're business then becomes associated with an individual who could be seen doing god knows what while wearing what is essentially your brand. Its not un-usual for company's to stipulate that while you, as an employee, are wearing company branded clothing the company may hold you accountable for actions which reflect negatively on the company.

Shiva sells Airsoft merchandise, if CR is wearing a T-Shirt advertising Eirsoft is it not reasonable to assume that theres a connection there, that CR represents that enterprise. You may say thats a ridiculous leap, but I've a T-Shirt with the Ericsson logo on it, and people just presume I work for, or at one stage worked for, Ericsson.

Basically point is, its not his call, and its a point he accepted so i'll not bang on about it anymore.

Spitfire666

if you mean me and boston i dont think its a problem, we wernt arguing.

Spitfire666

i actualy agree with you and dont think it would be unreasonable to think he was a rep for a company having the name on his shirt.
I just mean the hostility towards what ultimately will most likely be gin=ven the okay isnt needed.

Boston

Agreed.

CrazyRabbit

Spitfire666 wrote:

im not trying to speak for anyone, i was just saying that i know paul well enough that i doubt he could care less if his website is on a t-shirt. of course i could be wrong but i doubt it.
After all, its publicity. and publicity for all things airsoft needs a good kick up the arse.

True. Even after that radio show the other night that didnt go so well for airsoft, Paul received emails from dozens of new people interested in trying out airsoft. He seemed happy

CrazyRabbit

Boston wrote:

Well you can't speak for either person any more then I can. They might think t-shirt are tacky, who knows. CR acknowledges this point, so fair enough.

I personally think that it doesn't matter what slogan you put on a T-Shirt, some muppet who starts shooting people in the street or some five year old who takes their own eye out because their parents are moronic and buy them a gun, will always have far more sway over public opinion. They don't think the guns are safe and they do feel they are more likely to be used by criminals.

And yet, some people say I'm stubborn and only do what I want to do! I'm willing to put my hand up, say sorry, or change my viewpoint when I get a nice post pointing out a flaw in something I've said or done. It's the aggressive, sarcastic replies that piss me off (though I'm the first to admit I've made such replies myself )

Shiva

For the record, and I PM'd CrazyRabbit, I dont have a problem with it.
I'm quite flattered actually

Hivemind187

Note: Cant get the quotes working for some reason, everything in itallics is a cut and paste of what Crazyrabbit said in the OP

While I appreciate the effort you guys make to help airsoft, I'd like to make something quite clear (from my own personal viewpoint)

Yes, you want to make clear a personal issue you have with a single individual, who was speaking as an individual and a member of Boards.ie voicing an objection to something you did and quite rightly told you that you were over stepping a certain mark (namely you didn’t get permission from folk to use their web addresses etc). Moreover, there are only two reasons to make a new thread to voice your “opinion” and they are 1) To draw disproportionate attention to your injured pride and 2) to get people to soothe your bruised ego by agreeing with you. Which is why you decided to blame the IAA.

Also, I personally find it insulting to the intelligence that you claim to respect the IAA and the effort we are making on your behalf when you do so very much and so very often to attack, undermine and insult the work and those individuals. Hypocrisy is an unattractive quality in anyone.


I will not be dictated to by an unelected semi-formal group or by individuals within that group as to what I can and cannot do.

Nor should you. No really, you shouldn’t be dictated to by anyone. You have to realise that there is a difference between being dictated to (which is giving you an order which is expected to be carried out under the threat of a specific penalty) and being advised by someone deeply concerned about their sport and who has more than once had to tell you that you were out of order or being foolish. Surely you can see that?

Further to this, if you don’t want to be advised by the group, there is nothing forcing you to join. You are more than welcome to not sign up when the time comes (which incidentally will be very shortly).


One of the IAA committee members seems to have a problem with me ordering an Airsoft T-Shirt with a slogan on it. In his personal opinion the slogan can be offensive and he feels that I should consult everyone on this forum first before ordering this t-shirt.

Yes. In his personal opinion the shirt is offensive. His personal opinion. However, you have made this out to be the opinion of the IAA, which , by your own argument, it isn’t. Also, nowhere in his comment does he specifically tell you to consult everyone on boards before making a purchase, that is hyperbole and frankly childish as a reaction.

Sorry, but I live in a democracy. I do not need to consult anyone about my choice of clothing. If you have an objection to something, then make a nice friendly posts stating your concerns and perhaps offering alternatives. Making sarcastic and aggressive posts will not reflect well on the individual or the IAA in my eyes.

Now this is yet more hypocrisy. You are demanding a friendly post in one of the single most passive-aggressive postings this board has ever seen. You live in a democracy, ok. You don’t need to consult anyone over your choice in clothing, fine. However when you start slapping web addresses on things without their owners permission you are being incredibly rude – whether they object or not.

Again though you bring the IAA into this, which is a personal issue and something that you should have kept personal. NOIP has the right to post whatever the hell he likes on here as an individual just as you do. We don’t assume that you are speaking on behalf of IBM every time you post something that defies common sense do we? So you shouldn’t assume that about NOIP unless it specifically says otherwise.


Some people think that just because we are all play the same sport, that we should somehow all rally behind the IAA and agree with their view on how to proceed with airsoft. Nice in an ideal world, but this is reality. I have my own ideas on what is acceptable, on how to advertise and expand the sport. I'm open to ideas and suggestions, and can be greatly influenced by people I respect. But at the end of the day, we are all individuals and will proceed as we see fit, with or without the blessing of the IAA.

Nice sentiments but ultimately irrelevant. Reality, which you seem happy to drag kicking and screaming into this already spurious post, requires consensus on how we proceed. If you do not wish to take part in that, then you don’t join the IAA – really quite simple.

The rest of this paragraph is entirely geared to illicit negative reactions. Tell us that you are open to ideas from people you respect is a pathetic attempt to conceal in plain view your already clear contempt for the IAA and the effort we have put in. Its nothing more than childish jealousy because you haven’t had enough of a say to satisfy your ego vis a vie Airsoft in Ireland.

I guess I'm touching on a wider issue here. And it can be explained with these questions:
1. How many of the airsoft players know that the IAA made a decision to be a representative body for airsoft only and not a governing body?
2. How many of the airsoft players know the name of the organisation that wants to be the governing body?
3. How many of the airsoft players know who the members are of the IAA committee are?
4. How many members does the IAA formally have (I'll give you a clue, it's less than 1)
5. How many airsoft players have had any input on the decisions made by the IAA?
6. How many players are willing to follow an representative body that has given you no opportunity to have a say in it's goals, methods or beliefs?

Wow, this is unbelievably assumptive.
1) We are a representative body because the Irish Airsoft Governing Body is the governing body of which the IAA is a part.
2) Everyone who read the newsletter.
3) Most of the people who have signed up – why is it important? Do you know the name of every politician and civil servant?
4) Well, the truth is that right now the IAA is finalising the documentation (a long process) and is hoping to have those out within the next couple of weeks – you wouldn’t want us to half-ass it now would you? Or would you prefer we made a balls of it and disappointed everyone by undermining the position of the sport?
5) Quite a few, including yourself. The IAA operates by doing what is believed to be best for Airsoft in full view of the available facts. Information gathered through Boards, from speaking to players and observing what the government here and in the UK are doing.
6) The constitutions has been posted up, you all had a chance to read it and comment. You know who we are, you can always email us, suggest things etc.

Actually, I take specific issue with that last statement. First it suggests that we are doing all this work for no other purpose than to be able to lord it over airsofters like a personal power trip and secondly it seeks to stir contempt for people actually making an effort to secure the future of the sport. I will make something very clear – the IAA committee is made up of players, people just like you (only perhaps better armed for making arguments of this type) who want to see Airsoft flourish and legitimate in Ireland, our methods are to work as hard as we can laying out the irritating ground work to ensure that as many bases are covered and its beliefs … well I’m an Atheist, I think NOIP is, Oisin is a hippy of some kind (artsy type, believes in Acrylic) and Taz is a worshiper of the adrenal gland …. Whats your point? Annoyed there aren’t enough Catholics?

So we have a body that claims to be representative of the sport yet has no elected commitee members and no actual members (other than the commitee members)

No one to elect. We were just willing to do something and did it. This is all very familiar, haven’t we covered it before?

In short, you can advise, you can represent, but don't preach or dictate. If anyone is going to dictate anything then at the very least it would be the governing body. Get members, and find a way to let them have a say it what is happening. Collect subscriptions, get application forms and get elected! Then and only then can you set rules for your members.

Yes. We agree. Hence the reason we are doing all the work you couldn’t be bothered doing.

This entire thread is little more than a vehicle to voice a beef you had with another member of this forum. You have broken a number of rules by essentially starting a flame thread. You have assumed that the IAA was somehow persecuting you and have in a childish response decided to deride and attack its members when your issue was with a single individual, posting as an individual.

I personally don’t give a toss about the t-shirt and I really don’t care what the hell you wear when you are out and about. I do however take extreme issue with someone being petty and jealous of the achievements, although minor, of a small group of people who are donating a large portion of their free time to work towards securing the future of the sport that they, and I dare say you, love.

As such, I am asking Oisin to lock this thread.

Boston

Note: Cant get the quotes working for some reason, everything in itallics is a cut and paste of what Crazyrabbit said in the OP

While I appreciate the effort you guys make to help airsoft, I'd like to make something quite clear (from my own personal viewpoint)

Yes, you want to make clear a personal issue you have with a single individual, who was speaking as an individual and a member of Boards.ie voicing an objection to something you did and quite rightly told you that you were over stepping a certain mark (namely you didn’t get permission from folk to use their web addresses etc). Moreover, there are only two reasons to make a new thread to voice your “opinion” and they are 1) To draw disproportionate attention to your injured pride and 2) to get people to soothe your bruised ego by agreeing with you. Which is why you decided to blame the IAA.

Also, I personally find it insulting to the intelligence that you claim to respect the IAA and the effort we are making on your behalf when you do so very much and so very often to attack, undermine and insult the work and those individuals. Hypocrisy is an unattractive quality in anyone.

I will not be dictated to by an unelected semi-formal group or by individuals within that group as to what I can and cannot do.

Nor should you. No really, you shouldn’t be dictated to by anyone. You have to realise that there is a difference between being dictated to (which is giving you an order which is expected to be carried out under the threat of a specific penalty) and being advised by someone deeply concerned about their sport and who has more than once had to tell you that you were out of order or being foolish. Surely you can see that?

Further to this, if you don’t want to be advised by the group, there is nothing forcing you to join. You are more than welcome to not sign up when the time comes (which incidentally will be very shortly).

One of the IAA committee members seems to have a problem with me ordering an Airsoft T-Shirt with a slogan on it. In his personal opinion the slogan can be offensive and he feels that I should consult everyone on this forum first before ordering this t-shirt.

Yes. In his personal opinion the shirt is offensive. His personal opinion. However, you have made this out to be the opinion of the IAA, which , by your own argument, it isn’t. Also, nowhere in his comment does he specifically tell you to consult everyone on boards before making a purchase, that is hyperbole and frankly childish as a reaction.

Sorry, but I live in a democracy. I do not need to consult anyone about my choice of clothing. If you have an objection to something, then make a nice friendly posts stating your concerns and perhaps offering alternatives. Making sarcastic and aggressive posts will not reflect well on the individual or the IAA in my eyes.

Now this is yet more hypocrisy. You are demanding a friendly post in one of the single most passive-aggressive postings this board has ever seen. You live in a democracy, ok. You don’t need to consult anyone over your choice in clothing, fine. However when you start slapping web addresses on things without their owners permission you are being incredibly rude – whether they object or not.

Again though you bring the IAA into this, which is a personal issue and something that you should have kept personal. NOIP has the right to post whatever the hell he likes on here as an individual just as you do. We don’t assume that you are speaking on behalf of IBM every time you post something that defies common sense do we? So you shouldn’t assume that about NOIP unless it specifically says otherwise.

Some people think that just because we are all play the same sport, that we should somehow all rally behind the IAA and agree with their view on how to proceed with airsoft. Nice in an ideal world, but this is reality. I have my own ideas on what is acceptable, on how to advertise and expand the sport. I'm open to ideas and suggestions, and can be greatly influenced by people I respect. But at the end of the day, we are all individuals and will proceed as we see fit, with or without the blessing of the IAA.

Nice sentiments but ultimately irrelevant. Reality, which you seem happy to drag kicking and screaming into this already spurious post, requires consensus on how we proceed. If you do not wish to take part in that, then you don’t join the IAA – really quite simple.

The rest of this paragraph is entirely geared to illicit negative reactions. Tell us that you are open to ideas from people you respect is a pathetic attempt to conceal in plain view your already clear contempt for the IAA and the effort we have put in. Its nothing more than childish jealousy because you haven’t had enough of a say to satisfy your ego vis a vie Airsoft in Ireland.

I guess I'm touching on a wider issue here. And it can be explained with these questions:
1. How many of the airsoft players know that the IAA made a decision to be a representative body for airsoft only and not a governing body?
2. How many of the airsoft players know the name of the organisation that wants to be the governing body?
3. How many of the airsoft players know who the members are of the IAA committee are?
4. How many members does the IAA formally have (I'll give you a clue, it's less than 1)
5. How many airsoft players have had any input on the decisions made by the IAA?
6. How many players are willing to follow an representative body that has given you no opportunity to have a say in it's goals, methods or beliefs?

Wow, this is unbelievably assumptive.
1) We are a representative body because the Irish Airsoft Governing Body is the governing body of which the IAA is a part.
2) Everyone who read the newsletter.
3) Most of the people who have signed up – why is it important? Do you know the name of every politician and civil servant?
4) Well, the truth is that right now the IAA is finalising the documentation (a long process) and is hoping to have those out within the next couple of weeks – you wouldn’t want us to half-ass it now would you? Or would you prefer we made a balls of it and disappointed everyone by undermining the position of the sport?
5) Quite a few, including yourself. The IAA operates by doing what is believed to be best for Airsoft in full view of the available facts. Information gathered through Boards, from speaking to players and observing what the government here and in the UK are doing.
6) The constitutions has been posted up, you all had a chance to read it and comment. You know who we are, you can always email us, suggest things etc.

Actually, I take specific issue with that last statement. First it suggests that we are doing all this work for no other purpose than to be able to lord it over airsofters like a personal power trip and secondly it seeks to stir contempt for people actually making an effort to secure the future of the sport. I will make something very clear – the IAA committee is made up of players, people just like you (only perhaps better armed for making arguments of this type) who want to see Airsoft flourish and legitimate in Ireland, our methods are to work as hard as we can laying out the irritating ground work to ensure that as many bases are covered and its beliefs … well I’m an Atheist, I think NOIP is, Oisin is a hippy of some kind (artsy type, believes in Acrylic) and Taz is a worshiper of the adrenal gland …. Whats your point? Annoyed there aren’t enough Catholics?

So we have a body that claims to be representative of the sport yet has no elected commitee members and no actual members (other than the commitee members)

No one to elect. We were just willing to do something and did it. This is all very familiar, haven’t we covered it before?

In short, you can advise, you can represent, but don't preach or dictate. If anyone is going to dictate anything then at the very least it would be the governing body. Get members, and find a way to let them have a say it what is happening. Collect subscriptions, get application forms and get elected! Then and only then can you set rules for your members.

Yes. We agree. Hence the reason we are doing all the work you couldn’t be bothered doing.

This entire thread is little more than a vehicle to voice a beef you had with another member of this forum. You have broken a number of rules by essentially starting a flame thread. You have assumed that the IAA was somehow persecuting you and have in a childish response decided to deride and attack its members when your issue was with a single individual, posting as an individual.

I personally don’t give a toss about the t-shirt and I really don’t care what the hell you wear when you are out and about. I do however take extreme issue with someone being petty and jealous of the achievements, although minor, of a small group of people who are donating a large portion of their free time to work towards securing the future of the sport that they, and I dare say you, love.

As such, I am asking Oisin to lock this thread.

CrazyRabbit

Hivemind187 wrote:

Note: Cant get the quotes working for some reason, everything in itallics is a cut and paste of what Crazyrabbit said in the OP

While I appreciate the effort you guys make to help airsoft, I'd like to make something quite clear (from my own personal viewpoint)

Yes, you want to make clear a personal issue you have with a single individual, who was speaking as an individual and a member of Boards.ie voicing an objection to something you did and quite rightly told you that you were over stepping a certain mark (namely you didn’t get permission from folk to use their web addresses etc). I already stated that I was wrong to include the url's without permission. Noip didn't even mention that. Turns out he was pissed because he thought I jumped the gun by ordering the t-shirt before a vote was taken in the other thread. I have issue mainly with the wording of his post and that he automatically assumed the worst...again. Moreover, there are only two reasons to make a new thread to voice your “opinion” and they are 1) To draw disproportionate attention to your injured pride and 2) to get people to soothe your bruised ego by agreeing with you. Which is why you decided to blame the IAA. Or it's to draw attention to a serious issue that needs addressing. Off you go assuming the worst possible reasons for creating the post.

Also, I personally find it insulting to the intelligence that you claim to respect the IAA and the effort we are making on your behalf when you do so very much and so very often to attack, undermine and insult the work and those individuals. Hypocrisy is an unattractive quality in anyone. Hypocrisy is a supposedly elected group saying that it represents people without actually being elected and without actually having votes on anything. Where was the vote/poll when you took it upon yourselves to decide that the IAA was only going to be a representative body? And that's just an example. It's all fine and dandy saying you are volunteering your time and effort to represent airsofters, but at the moment, you really aren't representating anyone.

I will not be dictated to by an unelected semi-formal group or by individuals within that group as to what I can and cannot do.

Nor should you. No really, you shouldn’t be dictated to by anyone. You have to realise that there is a difference between being dictated to (which is giving you an order which is expected to be carried out under the threat of a specific penalty) and being advised by someone deeply concerned about their sport and who has more than once had to tell you that you were out of order or being foolish. Surely you can see that? NOIP most certainly did not 'advise' me to do anything. It was a post that deliberately set out to piss me off. And 'foolish and out of order' are subjective. Just because you, noip or others may disagree with my views, it does not make me foolish or out of order, and continuing to state that just makes you appear to have a superiority complex. Some of you come across as having a "we are always right, and you are always foolish" attitude. I rarely see any flexibility. Some people here are so dismissive of others ideas and are not too friendly when they comes to posting about it either.

Further to this, if you don’t want to be advised by the group, there is nothing forcing you to join. You are more than welcome to not sign up when the time comes (which incidentally will be very shortly). Good to hear that you will soon have actual members.


One of the IAA committee members seems to have a problem with me ordering an Airsoft T-Shirt with a slogan on it. In his personal opinion the slogan can be offensive and he feels that I should consult everyone on this forum first before ordering this t-shirt.

Yes. In his personal opinion the shirt is offensive. His personal opinion. However, you have made this out to be the opinion of the IAA, which , by your own argument, it isn’t. Also, nowhere in his comment does he specifically tell you to consult everyone on boards before making a purchase, that is hyperbole and frankly childish as a reaction.
And yet, several times it has been said that what I do/say can reflect on airsoft merely because I play it. In the same way, what one of the IAA commitee members says does reflect on the IAA. How are we mere mortals to know what is an IAA post and which is a personal post? And he did suggest that I consult the board... "Nice! way to consult the rest of the board" are his exact words.

Sorry, but I live in a democracy. I do not need to consult anyone about my choice of clothing. If you have an objection to something, then make a nice friendly posts stating your concerns and perhaps offering alternatives. Making sarcastic and aggressive posts will not reflect well on the individual or the IAA in my eyes.

Now this is yet more hypocrisy. You are demanding a friendly post in one of the single most passive-aggressive postings this board has ever seen. You live in a democracy, ok. You don’t need to consult anyone over your choice in clothing, fine. However when you start slapping web addresses on things without their owners permission you are being incredibly rude – whether they object or not. You'll get what you give. I get a friendly post, I've give one in return. I get an agressive post, and you'll sure has hell get one back. I'll not cover the url thing again. I've said sorry for that mistake enough times already. However, to state that I was being rude is stupid. Again you take the worst possible view. Perhaps I just wasn't minding what I was doing and made a god honest simple mistake???

Again though you bring the IAA into this, which is a personal issue and something that you should have kept personal. NOIP has the right to post whatever the hell he likes on here as an individual just as you do. We don’t assume that you are speaking on behalf of IBM every time you post something that defies common sense do we? So you shouldn’t assume that about NOIP unless it specifically says otherwise.

Agreed. I should have made separate posts regarding the IAA and NOIP's post. I apologise for that. I suggested to OISIN that the IAA have it's own forum name, to separate the person from the organisation.


Some people think that just because we are all play the same sport, that we should somehow all rally behind the IAA and agree with their view on how to proceed with airsoft. Nice in an ideal world, but this is reality. I have my own ideas on what is acceptable, on how to advertise and expand the sport. I'm open to ideas and suggestions, and can be greatly influenced by people I respect. But at the end of the day, we are all individuals and will proceed as we see fit, with or without the blessing of the IAA.

Nice sentiments but ultimately irrelevant. Reality, which you seem happy to drag kicking and screaming into this already spurious post, requires consensus on how we proceed. If you do not wish to take part in that, then you don’t join the IAA – really quite simple. That's fine. Just tell your committee members to keep their opinions to themselves whenever I post anything and I'll keep my opinions about the IAA to myself. You guys do things your way, and I'll do things my way.

The rest of this paragraph is entirely geared to illicit negative reactions. Tell us that you are open to ideas from people you respect is a pathetic attempt to conceal in plain view your already clear contempt for the IAA and the effort we have put in. Its nothing more than childish jealousy because you haven’t had enough of a say to satisfy your ego vis a vie Airsoft in Ireland. It's geared to hightlight issues that the IAA refuse to recognise or deal with. Don't think of me as being so egotistical. You are not the only ones who have the best interests of airsoft at heart. I don't want everything done my way, I just think it's appropriate that the players you purport to represent should have some say in the running of the IAA and the decisions it makes. A few guys doing what THEY PERSONALLY want without involving the airsoft players is my opinion egotistical.

I guess I'm touching on a wider issue here. And it can be explained with these questions:
1. How many of the airsoft players know that the IAA made a decision to be a representative body for airsoft only and not a governing body?
2. How many of the airsoft players know the name of the organisation that wants to be the governing body?
3. How many of the airsoft players know who the members are of the IAA committee are?
4. How many members does the IAA formally have (I'll give you a clue, it's less than 1)
5. How many airsoft players have had any input on the decisions made by the IAA?
6. How many players are willing to follow an representative body that has given you no opportunity to have a say in it's goals, methods or beliefs?

Wow, this is unbelievably assumptive.
1) We are a representative body because the Irish Airsoft Governing Body is the governing body of which the IAA is a part. Who made the choice for the IAA to be a representative body only? Sure as hell it wasn't the players. I agree with the IAA being a representative body, but that's not the point. You never consulted the players.
2) Everyone who read the newsletter. I must have missed that...fair enough
3) Most of the people who have signed up – why is it important? Do you know the name of every politician and civil servant? Don't know about you, but I like to know the names of the people who are going around 'representing' the sport I play, and to a lesser extent, me as a player.
4) Well, the truth is that right now the IAA is finalising the documentation (a long process) and is hoping to have those out within the next couple of weeks – you wouldn’t want us to half-ass it now would you? Or would you prefer we made a balls of it and disappointed everyone by undermining the position of the sport? Well it's good to see that you will finally have real members. Up until know it's been a case of putting the cart before the horse. A commitee and an organisation with no members!
5) Quite a few, including yourself. The IAA operates by doing what is believed to be best for Airsoft in full view of the available facts. Information gathered through Boards, from speaking to players and observing what the government here and in the UK are doing. I'm aware that I and some others have had some input. Not quite the proper way to do things do though is it? I don't remember any voting or any public posts asking for suggestions on some of the higher level decisions.
6) The constitutions has been posted up, you all had a chance to read it and comment. You know who we are, you can always email us, suggest things etc.

Actually, I take specific issue with that last statement. First it suggests that we are doing all this work for no other purpose than to be able to lord it over airsofters like a personal power trip (I wouldnt go that far, but you do see yourselves are better than everyone else when it comes to knowing what is best for airsoft...everyone else is foolish, childish or a danger to airsoft if they post something you disagree with) and secondly it seeks to stir contempt for people actually making an effort to secure the future of the sport. I will make something very clear – the IAA committee is made up of players, people just like you (only perhaps better armed for making arguments of this type (you see, I told you that you see yourselves as better than others)) who want to see Airsoft flourish and legitimate in Ireland, our methods are to work as hard as we can laying out the irritating ground work to ensure that as many bases are covered and its beliefs … well I’m an Atheist, I think NOIP is, Oisin is a hippy of some kind (artsy type, believes in Acrylic) and Taz is a worshiper of the adrenal gland …. Whats your point? Annoyed there aren’t enough Catholics? What the hell are you bring religion into this for? 'Beliefs' as in opinions. Doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

So we have a body that claims to be representative of the sport yet has no elected commitee members and no actual members (other than the commitee members)

No one to elect. We were just willing to do something and did it. This is all very familiar, haven’t we covered it before? And fair play to you all for doing this. I really do think highly of you for being the ones to actually do something...despite what you may think of me. You still should be elected though. That's what a committee for such a body should be, even if it just a formality at this stage. I was merely pointing out the ludicrasy of having an unelected body that represents nobody. Sounds like something from Monty Python.

In short, you can advise, you can represent, but don't preach or dictate. If anyone is going to dictate anything then at the very least it would be the governing body. Get members, and find a way to let them have a say it what is happening. Collect subscriptions, get application forms and get elected! Then and only then can you set rules for your members.

Yes. We agree. Hence the reason we are doing all the work you couldn’t be bothered doing. It is NOT that we couldn't be bothered doing it. It's just that you lot got there first. After that, there was no point in setting up a 2nd body as that would serve no purpose other than to confuse. Again, I'm sensing that superiority complex creeping in..."we are the only ones who bothered..blah blah blah". You were just the first...don't forget that. If you had not done it, others would have.

This entire thread is little more than a vehicle to voice a beef you had with another member of this forum. Well, as I said I should have kept the two items separate. You have broken a number of rules by essentially starting a flame thread. I didn't flame anyone, just posed some serious questions about the IAA and the behaviour of one of it's committe members You have assumed that the IAA was somehow persecuting you and have in a childish response decided to deride and attack its members when your issue was with a single individual, posting as an individual. It's not about persecuting me. It's about failings that I see in the IAA and it's attitude towards the people it claims to represent.

I personally don’t give a toss about the t-shirt (shame NOIP didn't have the same view) and I really don’t care what the hell you wear when you are out and about. I do however take extreme issue with someone being petty and jealous of the achievements, although minor, of a small group of people who are donating a large portion of their free time to work towards securing the future of the sport that they, and I dare say you, love. Guilt trip again. How long are you going to use that every time someone says something against the IAA?...."We spend sooo much of our time volunteering."...Well that's all well and good, but I'm still going to voice my concerns if I think you ain't doing as good a job as you should be.

As such, I am asking Oisin to lock this thread.

Ah, I see. You've had your final say, so no more discussion is needed because you couldn't possibly be wrong. Superiority complex again.

o1s1n

Back and forth and back and forth and back and...you guy do realize I have to read all of this yes? I mean, I don't mind reading through posts, but this is beginning to turn into a novel.

I just (as a matter of interest) did a word count on your two posts combined.

2,751.

Which is just a little short of some of my college essays. The difference being though, my college essays actually tackle issues and have some form of outcome.

This really has gone on long enough. This is not discussion. It is a collection of snide petty swipes at each other which is ruining into the thousands of words.

If you want to discuss the IAA, I'm not stopping you. Just for gods sake approach the subject objectively rather than starting off on a bad note. It does no one any good.

There are far more important thing for us to be discussing than watch people take snide petty swipes at each other like this.

Any more such carry on and I WILL ban people. I've warned about this long enough.