Kilmainham gaol tour?

cowzerp

My brother was in kilmainham gaol the other day and got the tour from a latvian girl! she kept calling padraic pearce-patrick and did not know any irish history! i think this is a sad state of affairs-any opinions?

europerson

This girl might have been training for Heritage Week, during which the OPW runs tours in the Eastern European langauages in Kilmainham Gaol. If this were the case, it ought to have been explained to you that it was. To make a complaint, contact the Head Guide or Supervisor Guide at Kilmainham. In general, the standard of OPW guides is excellent (Kilmainham especially so), so I find it shocking you had such a bad experience. As I said, make your complaint known to management.

Fratton Fred

there was a lady on Newstalk the other night who has written what sounded like a very good book about Kilmainham. I missed her name and the name of the book, did anyone catch it?

McArmalite

cowzerp wrote:

My brother was in kilmainham gaol the other day and got the tour from a latvian girl! she kept calling padraic pearce-patrick and did not know any irish history! i think this is a sad state of affairs-any opinions?

I have been on the tour quite a few years ago, one of the interesting facts I gathered from it was that Eammon De Valera was the very last prisioner released from it.

McArmalite

cowzerp wrote:

My brother was in kilmainham gaol the other day and got the tour from a latvian girl! she kept calling padraic pearce-patrick and did not know any irish history! i think this is a sad state of affairs-any opinions?

Yeah, I think it's offical policy of the OPW to have a 'watered down' version of Irish history. For instance, I done the tour of King John's castle in Trim. Good tour and excellent tour guide. But if you read the wording of the plaques telling the history of the castle etc, phrases like " the coming of the Normans" instead of - the invasion of the Normans, etc. Likewise I believe on the tour of Kilmainham, regarding the 1916 executions etc it's not referred to as eg. " on the orders of the British Govt", but - on the orders of the Govt of the day, that sort of thing. A sad state of affairs I agree, but that's 'offical' Ireland for you.

PHB

I know two of the people who give that tour and to be honest, I find it very surprising that somebody didn't know much about Irish history. Their interview process is extremely difficult, asking questions that even after studying the period I'd have trouble answering off the top of my head.

ALso, I've done the tour in Kilmainham, and it's anything if watered down

Mick86

McArmalite wrote:

Yeah, I think it's offical policy of the OPW to have a 'watered down' version of Irish history.

I visited Kilmainham earlier this year and the tour script could have been written by Gerry Adams. I thought the guide might burn a Union Jack as an encore.:D

europerson

McArmalite wrote:

Yeah, I think it's offical policy of the OPW to have a 'watered down' version of Irish history.

No, it is not. As a serving guide, I can assure you that there are no restrictions placed on a guide's tour, so long as it is within good taste and decency. At most sites too, there are recommendations on how long a tour ought to be. Everything a guide speaks of is historical fact. Anything of dubious origin will be presented as such, for obvious reasons. Many OPW guides are authorities on Irish and European history. Some parts of OPW management in certain regions like guides to follow a "standard" tour, but the significant majority of guides ignore that. I am of the school of thought that there are different guides and every guide talks about different things. It brings an enriching variety to our work, and it's the way it ought to be.

For instance, I done the tour of King John's castle in Trim. Good tour and excellent tour guide. But if you read the wording of the plaques telling the history of the castle etc, phrases like " the coming of the Normans" instead of - the invasion of the Normans, etc. Likewise I believe on the tour of Kilmainham, regarding the 1916 executions etc it's not referred to as eg. " on the orders of the British Govt", but - on the orders of the Govt of the day, that sort of thing.

That's nonsense. In any case, history doesn't have to be sensational. There are many ways of saying the same thing, and guides are aware of that. One has to adapt one's tour to suit the group present. That's the most important skill for any guide. The site, at which I usually work, has an important role in Anglo-Irish history, and I've dealt with groups from both parts of the Northern Irish community: I talk about exactly the same things on my tour with each. If they don't like the way, in which I present historical fact, then that's their problem, because I only talk fact. When asked for my opinion, I will offer it, if appropriate, but again, I have to be careful not to ostracise people on my tour.

A sad state of affairs I agree, but that's 'offical' Ireland for you.

As I said, there is no official policy on the wording used in presentation. While the OPW is institutionalised in many ways, that does not extend to telling guides what they ought to say.

McArmalite

europerson wrote:

No, it is not. As a serving guide, I can assure you that there are no restrictions placed on a guide's tour, so long as it is within good taste and decency. At most sites too, there are recommendations on how long a tour ought to be. Everything a guide speaks of is historical fact. Anything of dubious origin will be presented as such, for obvious reasons. Many OPW guides are authorities on Irish and European history. Some parts of OPW management in certain regions like guides to follow a "standard" tour, but the significant majority of guides ignore that. I am of the school of thought that there are different guides and every guide talks about different things. It brings an enriching variety to our work, and it's the way it ought to be.


That's nonsense. In any case, history doesn't have to be sensational. There are many ways of saying the same thing, and guides are aware of that. One has to adapt one's tour to suit the group present. That's the most important skill for any guide. The site, at which I usually work, has an important role in Anglo-Irish history, and I've dealt with groups from both parts of the Northern Irish community: I talk about exactly the same things on my tour with each. If they don't like the way, in which I present historical fact, then that's their problem, because I only talk fact. When asked for my opinion, I will offer it, if appropriate, but again, I have to be careful not to ostracise people on my tour.


As I said, there is no official policy on the wording used in presentation. While the OPW is institutionalised in many ways, that does not extend to telling guides what they ought to say.

Well, I was on a tour of Glasnevin cemetery a few years ago which is carried out by 2 elderly men who do it voluntary on Sunday mornings and not part of the OPW. Somehow the Kilmainham gaol tour came into the conversation, and both of them stated that the tour had been " watered down", so I just took them at their word. As you say europerson " there are different guides and every guide talks about different things. " and I agree with that.

ScottishDanny

I've been on the tour a couple of times when friends/relations have visited and found the staff to be very good. I had a chat with some of them after the tour about specific aspects of the history of the 1916 executions. While we exchanged views and disagreed on some semantics it was cordial and informative. Like the board is supposed to be. Anyhoo I've heard of Pearse mentioned using the English and Irish versions of his name interchangeably - in fact I've seen his signature as both 'P Pearse' and 'PH Mac Piaras' so whats the problem?

Sparklehorse

cowzerp wrote:

My brother was in kilmainham gaol the other day and got the tour from a latvian girl! she kept calling padraic pearce-patrick and did not know any irish history! i think this is a sad state of affairs-any opinions?

Been on the tour a few times and it's great. As for the tour guide you received...it must be as explained above. Guides know their stuff having secured a guide licence and going through interviews etc. I think it is great to see a growing number of non-nationals as tour guides around Ireland. I think it is valuable for foreign tourists who come here and helps integration somewhat also, even just on a practical, basic level.

Jackie laughlin

OK, I'm off topic but it was mentioned above. The Normans were neither English nor British and were invited to Ireland by an Irish king.

Zambia

McArmalite wrote:

I have been on the tour quite a few years ago, one of the interesting facts I gathered from it was that Eammon De Valera was the very last prisioner released from it.

Pity...

Jackie laughlin

It would have been quite wrong to keep an economic migrant locked up in jail!

Zambia

I agree , they could have shot the evil little sprite.

Snickers Man

Jackie laughlin wrote:

OK, I'm off topic but it was mentioned above. The Normans were neither English nor British and were invited to Ireland by an Irish king.

So what's your point?

Even given that it's off topic. I hate it when people jump to conclusions about points that I make. Before denouncing your views as trite, unfounded, treasonous and worthy of the vilest retribution, I just want to be sure that they do indeed merit such a response.

McArmalite

( I know this is a bit off topic also, but anyway.) Living in Dublin more than a decade, pasted by it a 1,000 times but finally went on the tour on Friday. Disappointing in my opinion, not a lot to see. Only things stick out in my mind, the huge gold plate presented by 'King Billy' and Strongbows tomb which has his right foot lying sideways. Appearently according to guide, it symbolises he was a Crusader. If you have'nt been on it - don't loose any sleep.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote:

( I know this is a bit off topic also, but anyway.) Living in Dublin more than a decade, pasted by it a 1,000 times but finally went on the tour on Friday. Disappointing in my opinion, not a lot to see. Only things stick out in my mind, the huge gold plate presented by 'King Billy' and Strongbows tomb which has his right foot lying sideways. Appearently according to guide, it symbolises he was a Crusader. If you have'nt been on it - don't loose any sleep.

It's a Church, not a museum. I think the idea is that you go there for spiritual enlightenment, not a history lesson

I was fortunate enough to be confirmed there this year (I know, better late than never and all that) and I thought it was a fascinating building, we were fortunate to see a bit more than a tourist would, but i'm not sure I would be all that interested in a tour. I find Cathedrals and Churches are best when you get the chance to just poke around and read the plaques etc.

Jackie laughlin

Snickers,
It wasn't you. It was McArm. He was upset that someone said the "coming of the Normans" rather than the "invasion". However, you will have to prove yourself a truegreen, pseudo-republican, SF/IRA, 800-years, nutter before I would welcome your denunciation and I suspect you fall far short.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote:

It's a Church, not a museum. I think the idea is that you go there for spiritual enlightenment, not a history lesson

I was fortunate enough to be confirmed there this year (I know, better late than never and all that) and I thought it was a fascinating building, we were fortunate to see a bit more than a tourist would, but i'm not sure I would be all that interested in a tour. I find Cathedrals and Churches are best when you get the chance to just poke around and read the plaques etc.

" I think the idea is that you go there for spiritual enlightenment, not a history lesson ". Well, why advertise it as "immense historical interest" - false advertising ?

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Snickers,
It wasn't you. It was McArm. He was upset that someone said the "coming of the Normans" rather than the "invasion". However, you will have to prove yourself a truegreen, pseudo-republican, SF/IRA, 800-years, nutter before I would welcome your denunciation and I suspect you fall far short.

Well Jackie, someone who describes "revisionist"; as " it's a badge of honour! " says it all really. Would you describe yourself as pseudo British or pseudo Irish or whatever ? Anyway, just stick to brainwashing yourself on Eoin Harris, Ruth Dudley Westbrit, Conor 'Booze' O'Brien, and the rest of the sir anthony o'reilly's Brit Pack :rolleyes:

Zambia

McArmalite wrote:

" I think the idea is that you go there for spiritual enlightenment, not a history lesson ". Well, why advertise it as "immense historical interest" - false advertising ?



Well Jackie, someone who describes "revisionist"; as " it's a badge of honour! " says it all really. Would you describe yourself as pseudo British or pseudo Irish or whatever ? Anyway, just stick to brainwashing yourself on Eoin Harris, Ruth Dudley Westbrit, Conor 'Booze' O'Brien, and the rest of the sir anthony o'reilly's Brit Pack :rolleyes:
The one thing that I have always found down the years is that pseudo Peace demonstrators ( Peace Train/ Peace 93 etc) from the 26 co's who find the violence of the IRA so abhorrent, always suffer a blind spot when it comes to violence by the british forces, whether it be in the occupied 6 counties or out in Iraq/Afghanistan - or anywhere else for that matter. ( Just think if known IRA men were out in the middle east murdering completely innocent civilains everyday - would we ever hear the end of it ? ) Hypocrites for Peace would be more accurate.

McArmilite I think you need to lay out some of your pionts a bit more clearly here in a new thread. This reads a wee bit ranty.

McArmalite

Zambia232 wrote:

McArmilite I think you need to lay out some of your pionts a bit more clearly here in a new thread. This reads a wee bit ranty.

I suppose you have a point, but Jackie made some remarks about my opinions and I replied.

Jackie laughlin

I'm not troubled by the abuse. It's so wide of the mark.

I'd have no problem giving you my views on the people you mention but I can't see that they have much in common.

I've never been on a "peace" demo in my life. I never liked them. they were too "huggy" and forgiving - peace at any price. Peace without murderers in the dock mocks every good person.

In other threads I've been unequivocal in condemning British and Unionist atrocities. All murderers should stand trial.

The reason why I don't worry about being called a revisionist is because it's quite funny. The epithet is meant to silence anyone who tells the truth in Ireland. The true revisionists were those who distorted the history of Ireland to serve their murderous (and in some cases, class) ambitions.

If I were to classify myself I would say that I'm a socialist who is very pleased to be Irish. I love the language and the culture - Gaelic, Anglo and the mixture.

By the way, I don't understand Irish people who "support" British soccer teams with whom they have no local identity. You'll find me at an Eircom league game most weekends.

Does that clear things up?

hi

I remember going to Kilmainham, when the tour was given by the old lads who restored the building from a shell in the 1960s.
The jail was only handed over to the state in the 1970s??, as the original group of men were too old to carry on.
At the time form what i remember the jail was only open on Sunday afternoon.
Have to say, I preferred the tour given by the old lads, to the professional guides,

ScottishDanny

Fair play to Dursey for getting the thread back on topic. I think the tour is a good way to spend a Sunday afternoon if you are at a loose end in the capital.

Alternatively, you could spend it turning every thread in the history & heritage board into a 'I like the RA'/'I don't like the RA' rant :rolleyes:

McArmalite

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I'm not troubled by the abuse. It's so wide of the mark.

I'd have no problem giving you my views on the people you mention but I can't see that they have much in common.

I've never been on a "peace" demo in my life. I never liked them. they were too "huggy" and forgiving - peace at any price. Peace without murderers in the dock mocks every good person.

In other threads I've been unequivocal in condemning British and Unionist atrocities. All murderers should stand trial.

The reason why I don't worry about being called a revisionist is because it's quite funny. The epithet is meant to silence anyone who tells the truth in Ireland. The true revisionists were those who distorted the history of Ireland to serve their murderous (and in some cases, class) ambitions.

If I were to classify myself I would say that I'm a socialist who is very pleased to be Irish. I love the language and the culture - Gaelic, Anglo and the mixture.

" In other threads I've been unequivocal in condemning British and Unionist atrocities. "

By the way, I don't understand Irish people who "support" British soccer teams with whom they have no local identity. You'll find me at an Eircom league game most weekends.

Does that clear things up?

In a sense, any form of historical enquiry could be described as revisionist. However in Ireland over the last 30 years or so it unfortunately became associated with the 'Britpack' (Eoin Harass [Harris], 'Colonel' Kevin Meyers etc ) , etc type, who as part of the media partition industry, tried to manipulate the public's view of british occupation as sort of a series of well meaning mistakes and Irish reaction to it as bigotted, unjust, ignorant, etc

"In other threads I've been unequivocal in condemning British and Unionist atrocities. ". Well, maybe it's because I have only been on the boards a few months - but I have yet to see it. but would I be wrong in guessing that the criticism was relatively mild or even token when compared to Republicans ?

" If I were to classify myself I would say that I'm a socialist Since Bertie Ahern was calling himself a socialist I wonder what are your socialist beliefs ? What campaigns/political movements etc have you been invovled with ?

McArmalite

ScottishDanny wrote:

Fair play to Dursey for getting the thread back on topic. I think the tour is a good way to spend a Sunday afternoon if you are at a loose end in the capital.

Alternatively, you could spend it turning every thread in the history & heritage board into a 'I like the RA'/'I don't like the RA' rant :rolleyes:

I have to admit ScottishDanny - you've got a good point, mea culpa :rolleyes: But that's unfortunatley McArm - always up for a scrap. Isn't that right Fred ?

Jackie laughlin

McArm,
You would indeed be quite wrong to assume that my attitude to murder and atrocity is determined by whether they are committed by "republicans" or their rivals.

We both know that Bertie was being his vacant little self when he said that. This is hardly the place for a lecture on socialism and I don't think that I need to answer you in detail. However, I will say that I remain rooted in Marxism but with my head in the present.

As far as getting the thread back on topic is concerned, it is vital that any tour guide in Ireland tell the truth in all its brutality and complications.

templetonpeck

err.....*comes in sheepishly* Don't mean to interrupt, but I just wanted to say that I've been to Kilmainham a couple of times. The first time was in the 80's on a school tour, and the last time a few years ago, after it had been done up.

I was astounded by it's transformation. As a Charles Stewart Parnell 'fan' I was thrilled to see so many of his items there. I was really impressed by the whole thing, the guide was excellent, so knowledgeable, I was so glad the effort was put into it. TBH, for me it's just being in the place that makes it for me. Except for the yard

Jackie laughlin

Templeton,
It's a long, long time since I was there. I'll never go back because of the yard.

templetonpeck

Yes, it is a strange feeling standing there. The Irish people that were on the tour with us were so sombre and when some of the foreign people started talking it seemed so disrespectful. Actually, it felt awfully disrespectful just standing there.