Live €1 €2 Hand

Hectorjelly

From a few weeks ago, Ive been playing live a bit recently. Anyway villain here is an interesting player. At first I thought he was awful, but ive developed a grudging respect for him. That could be because he has stopped donating to me in the shape of loose calls and bluffs. Im up about €750 from him over a few sessions. He is quite loose preflop and very aggro. Id say around a 40/30. He loves to pounce on weakness but isnt an idiot. Im pretty sure he hasnt bluffed me in a couple of hours, I called him down with K hi and won in one hand and twice checked houses to him on the river; he pushed both times. I really think ive frightened him into not bluffing me except in small pots. He is also quite good post flop and is definitely capable of laying down an overpair here, especially against me.

Hand 1 against him

1 limpers and he makes it 11 from cutoff, I have 56s on button and call. The limper and one blind call as well. Me and villain have 400 each. Other stacks arent important (ie I cant remember! probably around 200)

The flop is 626r

Blind leads for 10. Limper calls, villain makes it about 60.

Call, raise, fold?

Whats my plan for a response if I raise, and for a turn if I call.

bohsman

I flat call and raise the turn.

White Knight

bohsman wrote:

I flat call and raise the turn.

I think this is too standard considering the history.

I like a raise to 160 hoping to induce a push

pok3rplaya

kinda sucky spot because on a board this dry any move except a fold looks like a monster. The way i see it you have 2 choices here, you can call and tip your hand to the raiser with a reasonable chance of keeping the limper in. I've no idea wat de limper has whatsoever though. Of course, the more favourable line is the one which gets de money in against the original villan with an overpair. I think given the nature of the board and the messy history between you, you need to convince him that you are makin some outrageous bluff. Best way to do that is to put a raise in somehow on the flop when de board is still dry. I think you need to do something unusual and suspicious here. Two possibles i can think of now are 1) just shoving and 2) i havent worked this out yet but minraising mite set the stacks up for him to shove AI over you if he's aggro like that.

pok3rplaya

White Knight wrote:

I think this is too standard considering the history.

I like a raise to 160 hoping to induce a push

Respek'

ocallagh

This is a great spot you lukbox.

The donkey lead from SB is good and bad for you. It generates action from villain, but it hugely reduces your range if you call/raise now. A raise to 180 or so will commit you to the pot and with the SB and Limper left to act it looks very strong. Villain will fold almost anything here. I prefer a call.

Turn (If SB and Limper both fold)

Given history, If villain checks, I check behind. A bet on the turn is very strong still, I prefer to appear to be in check call mode. There is 180 in the pot and you have 300 odd left so it shouldn't be too hard to get most of that in on the river if he has QQ+.

If villain bets any more than 120, I shove, otherwise I call.

River
If you both checked the turn I value bet the river 150 or so, otherwise I get the rest of my money in regardless of what villain does.

RoundTower

I call, you will definitely get another bet from an overpair on a subsequent street but probably not if you raise it now.

BuChan

i'd probably call and hope to get one of the shortstacks along for the ride. the villian can't call a rereraise on the flop with just and overpair, especially given the history between you. i like ocallagh's line seems like the best way to squeeze something out of an overpair, which should not put another penny in the pot after you call.
the action in this hand is weird with that 1/4 pot donkbet and a call before villians reraise, what did you put him on? he'd probably just call with qq+ here right? he might have you crushed with a 67/68 in the pocket, or 2s full, but that's probably not worth worrying about.

ianmc38

I would just call. I dont see any value in raising now. If blind folds and villain checks the turn, I'd bet 120 which will let you shove river if called.

If there's a good chance he'll check fold the turn with an op, I would definitely check behind to try and induce a river value bet, betting 100 or so on river if he checks again.

pok3rplaya

i missed dat there is a blind in too. I think calling is superior now. Can't speculate any further without action.

Van Dice

Interesting spot, nice one to be in though Obviously whatever you do the OR is going to think there is a big chance that you have trips or better.

Raising represents the hand you have or a bluff. With a raise I would make it 150 or so. Then check behind on turn and shove river. Make it look as bluffy as possible.

I think if you call, you are trying to rep something like 99/TT. The problem I see with this line is that those hands are quite likely to check behind on turn and river, and a bet on either street looks way more like trips/boat. But then people call all the time with overpairs when they're obviously beat, so that has merits too.

Close, on balance I think I like a call more, for the extra chance the blind sticks around, for the times the raiser hasn't got an overpair, and because I think he's just too likely to fold to a flop raise when he's 200 BBs deep. You also said that you called him down with K hi, so hopefully he might think you call very light always!

If I call the flop I bet a low turn card, check behind an A or K and try to get some value on the river.

pok3rplaya

one other thing, calling is the worst of our three options preflop

Gholimoli

this board is so dry i cant see any point in flat calling here given the action.
unless villain thinks you are a donkey then he will put you on a 6 and will stop unless he has you beat.

by flat calling you are essentially hoping that villain will chose to ignor the very obvious nature of your hand.

raising isn't much better in terms of hiding your hand but it can make villain think you are making a move.
i think a minraise here is a good bet.
villain may think that he has never seen a minraise from you and if he thinks that you are capable of making a move then he may push over the top with a a good over pair.
over all i dont think there is much in them cuz it's very hard for villain to make a mistake here either way.

BigCityBanker

I dont raise here. The player you describe is capable of rasing a wide range of hands from the CO inc A6 etc....

Call now, let his turn play dictate how the rest of the hand plays out. Im not a fan of a raise here, if he comes ott then your likely toast.

Is this from the fitz? Do you have a name for villian? There used only be one player in there that id give respect to.

ocallagh

Gholimoli wrote:

this board is so dry i cant see any point in flat calling here given the action.
unless villain thinks you are a donkey then he will put you on a 6 and will stop unless he has you beat.

by flat calling you are essentially hoping that villain will chose to ignor the very obvious nature of your hand.

raising isn't much better in terms of hiding your hand but it can make villain think you are making a move.
i think a minraise here is a good bet.
villain may think that he has never seen a minraise from you and if he thinks that you are capable of making a move then he may push over the top with a a good over pair.
over all i dont think there is much in them cuz it's very hard for villain to make a mistake here either way.

i think a raise looks a lot stronger than a call given the SB and Limper are yet to act

Hectorjelly

pok3rplaya wrote:

one other thing, calling is the worst of our three options preflop

Jesus no, 200bbs in position and deep against a player I know well and am better considerably better than; folding is out of the question.

Hectorjelly

a problem is that a 6 is definitely in his range, as is air or an overpair.

What happened was I called on the flop. We both checked the turn and I bet a blank river for the full pot when checked to. He thought for about a minute and folded (maybe he was acting but it was unusual). When I cold call the flop raise on a board like that it absolutely screams strength. I will only really turn up there with a house or a 6, and thats pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. Immediately afterwards I thought perhaps a raise on the flop might look like I was repping the 6 without actually having it, whereas a call cant be a bluff. Still not sure so thats why I posted it!

Theresalwaysone

Is flat calling here with two players to act behind not turning your hand face up?

I raise to 140-160 and try to come across as a squeeze. Then if he calls, check behind on the turn and value bet the river as if he does have an overpair as you suspect he will call a reasonable value bet.

Edit: if he doesn't have an overpair you flat calling here will shut him down anyway. Although it looks like he does, I cant see him doing this with AK.

Edit: (again) HJ got in with results before I could post.

Van Dice

Very tough hand to get paid off on. Def wouldve bet less on river though, as you said yourself your call on the flop cant be a bluff (almost always ), so the bet on the river should probably be something that looks like it's a pocket pair, which a full pot bet doesn't

Hectorjelly

why would a pocket pair want to bet the river? I need to represent a bluff here, or a pocket pair that I want to turn into a bluff.

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

a problem is that a 6 is definitely in his range, as is air or an overpair.

What happened was I called on the flop. We both checked the turn and I bet a blank river for the full pot when checked to. He thought for about a minute and folded (maybe he was acting but it was unusual). When I cold call the flop raise on a board like that it absolutely screams strength. I will only really turn up there with a house or a 6, and thats pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. Immediately afterwards I thought perhaps a raise on the flop might look like I was repping the 6 without actually having it, whereas a call cant be a bluff. Still not sure so thats why I posted it!

If you raise and either the blind or the ep limper has a 6 it's very likely better then yours (or you'll end up chopping the pot) and you can't get away when they push for €200 if you raise.

I know you gave the game away by saying that they were irrelevant in the first post but that's only with the benefit of hindsight. A lot of people in live games check their trips on that board.

To be honest why couldn't the CO have AK/AQ here and be c-betting representing the overpair? It's not a terrible play to flat call on the flop and let him hit his overcards.

Also if you flat calling screams strength so much in a standard live cash game are you not floating people on flops on occasion? or is that not worth it in the long run in your opinion?? I wouldn't have bet so much on the river but I think that depends on the history between you two and whether you have shown bluffs (or at least been suspected of such) with full pot bets on the river.

Ardent

Calling here is a disaster in my opinion. I really think a raise is required to disguise the stength of your hand, make it look like a move on a dry board and hope our opponent pushes. I'd re-raise to about 140.

bops

i think flat calling gives your hand away (alarm bells!), raising is the only way you are going to get all the money in here against a big pp imo (you wouldn't raise me with trips!!)

...some day you'll learn - sigh

bops

...you checked behind on the turn? :eek: plz explain yourself!

Van Dice

Depends what the final board was. I agree usually here with repping bluff, but a bluff here in your spot is almost impossible, so would prefer to make it a less pricey call for him. Maybe wrong.
And if he is the suspicious type who would call a full pot bet on the river light, then I definitely prefer raising the flop

Hectorjelly

I checked on the turn because i have already shown strength and my hand is at the very bottom of my range. I would of just called a river bet.

Hectorjelly

ollyk1 wrote:

If you raise and either the blind or the ep limper has a 6 it's very likely better then yours (or you'll end up chopping the pot) and you can't get away when they push for €200 if you raise.
I know you gave the game away by saying that they were irrelevant in the first post but that's only with the benefit of hindsight. A lot of people in live games check their trips on that board.

Its very hard to have a 6 in your hand when you call a preflop raise. If they do have a 6, and its possible but unlikely, then they arent going to bet 10 into the pot. So that leaves only the ep limper to worry about. If he has a 6 then fine, he gets my money. I dont see that I have any choice, or that its paticularly worth discussing.With 100bbs (which is the effective stack with the shorties) you basically never fold trips in a raised pot.

ollyk1 wrote:

To be honest why couldn't the CO have AK/AQ here and be c-betting representing the overpair? It's not a terrible play to flat call on the flop and let him hit his overcards.

Yeah he definitely could of had absolutely nothing.

ollyk1 wrote:

Also if you flat calling screams strength so much in a standard live cash game are you not floating people on flops on occasion? or is that not worth it in the long run in your opinion??

I was floating a long time before there was a name for it! I dont do it much, especially not in town, and never in a spot like this. If I don't have a 6 in my hand it makes it more likely someone else does. In some cases the shorties will make a stand with 88 here.

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

I checked on the turn because i have already shown strength and my hand is at the very bottom of my range. I would of just called a river bet.

but he checked it into you?? you gotta bet here imo - are you trapping??
how would you have played AA here?

don't mean to sound smart here btw - i just fine your line interesting (i may even learn something!)

BigCityBanker

Hectorjelly wrote:

I was floating a long time before there was a name for it!

I think i may have found a new sig.

Hectorjelly

I dont think im going to get two streets of value from an overpair, and in a vacuum he is much more likely to call a river bet than a turn bet. Thats because my hand looks a lot weaker when I check the turn, and because a bet on the turn potentially means an all in on the river. Whereas the river is an easier to call bet, you know exactly how much its going to cost.

A check is also good because it may induce a bluff, or convince him that I dont have a 6 and get him to bet his overpair, or check call with it.

Basically pot control with a marginal hand!

bops

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont think im going to get two streets of value from an overpair, and in a vacuum he is much more likely to call a river bet than a turn bet. Thats because my hand looks a lot weaker when I check the turn, and because a bet on the turn potentially means an all in on the river. Whereas the river is an easier to call bet, you know exactly how much its going to cost.

A check is also good because it may induce a bluff, or convince him that I dont have a 6 and get him to bet his overpair, or check call with it.

Basically pot control with a marginal hand!

tbh this would have been my line too if i only called the flop - i totally agree that your hand is marginal - you are either way infront or way behind here - way too many players go broke quick with trips (as opposed to a set)

it can be agrued that you are not getting enough value with your hand, but i think your line is better than having to face a push with you being pretty committed. getting the villain to bluff or light call your river bet is superior

EIDT: excellent reply cheers - i'll leave you be now!!

ollyk1

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its very hard to have a 6 in your hand when you call a preflop raise. If they do have a 6, and its possible but unlikely, then they arent going to bet 10 into the pot. So that leaves only the ep limper to worry about. If he has a 6 then fine, he gets my money. I dont see that I have any choice, or that its paticularly worth discussing.With 100bbs (which is the effective stack with the shorties) you basically never fold trips in a raised pot.

A6 sooted is the nuts form what I've seen. :rolleyes: I accept your point in relation to the stack sizes and its only the EP limper that should have a 6 or else an absolute moron in the blinds.

Hectorjelly wrote:

Yeah he definitely could of had absolutely nothing.

I was floating a long time before there was a name for it! I dont do it much, especially not in town, and never in a spot like this. If I don't have a 6 in my hand it makes it more likely someone else does. In some cases the shorties will make a stand with 88 here.

Fair point. We are close to the bottom of our range as played.

kryogen

the guy in the blind who leads kills this hand for you, really theres not alot of ways to get paid here, unless they are nits!.. if you cold call after a bet,call,raise, and two behind you may aswell turn your hand face up... you dont do this without a 6 or 22, unless your setting up an elaborate bluff which isnt really advisable on the irish poker scene if you raise there is more chance the villain will commit more to the pot but its marginal imo. whatever you do here you are going to be showing serious strength and give away your hand, its unavoidable so just move on!! the turn is fine as the villain has probably shut up shop anyway, and he may make a call on the river if he can convince himself that his gut is wrong and maybe that over pair is good!!

as you have said you have history with the guy so he isnt gonna pay you light anymore and you feel hes not likely to bluff you in a large pot, so A6 is probably a concern for you from him if he was still showing intrest in the pot. the river bet is fine, if hes calling you hes calling you tbh and at least you made an effort to turn your hand into a bluff if he doesnt!!

semibluff

considering the history a re-raise may have worked, as you'd slow played all other monsters to him. when hopefully he calls, i would give it a very delayed check on the turn - as in you tried but failed on flop, and he should bet out river, if not check call.

in hindsight, you made no more out of the flop infortunately, and i dont think you would have unless the villain or the blind had A6 etc, or hit a house on turn or river. so taking the chance to take his whole stack instead of just a possible value bet on the river would be the best way to play it IMO

hotspur

I don't see how you can realistically get paid by reraising the flop, you're not going to bluff into a blind raising, limper calling, and the villain reraising. Against an aggro player I think the check on the turn is the best line, the alternative being a small - moderate milking bet on the last 2 streets. But whatever you do on the flop your hand is tipped to be honest.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

a problem is that a 6 is definitely in his range, as is air or an overpair.

What happened was I called on the flop. We both checked the turn and I bet a blank river for the full pot when checked to. He thought for about a minute and folded (maybe he was acting but it was unusual). When I cold call the flop raise on a board like that it absolutely screams strength. I will only really turn up there with a house or a 6, and thats pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. Immediately afterwards I thought perhaps a raise on the flop might look like I was repping the 6 without actually having it, whereas a call cant be a bluff. Still not sure so thats why I posted it!

Do you not think raising would be even more idiotic without the 6?

I think you might be letting the results skew your thinking. He obv had nothing, but if he had QQ+ I think calling is best on the flop

Hectorjelly

ocallagh wrote:

Do you not think raising would be even more idiotic without the 6?

I think theres a misunderstanding here, doesnt seem important though

ocallagh wrote:

I think you might be letting the results skew your thinking. He obv had nothing, but if he had QQ+ I think calling is best on the flop

Yeah quite possibly, I wasn't sure and it was hanging around in my brain so I decided to post it and hopefully be rid of it forever!

robinlacey

pok3rplaya wrote:

one other thing, calling is the worst of our three options preflop

why do you think that?

i think calling is standard here,sometimes i raise,maybe one in five times,and i never fold.