7 handed multi final table hand

semibluff

its the last seven of a multi with 40+ runners. the average stack is 30k. im playing 42k. the table has been very tight, with the majority of raises being respected. one thing to note is that within the only 3/4 hands that we saw flop play this new move - the check MIN raise is being over used. one player is on 18k, everyone else is comfortable, with chip leader on about 75k.
its the bubble for the money, which is 200, then 290, and so on with 1550 top prize. 100 +10 buy in

Ive played in only 4 hands in 70 mins or so, winning 3, showing 1, and limp folding with the other.

Im utg with 7c5c - bb 1200. i make it 4500 ( if re-raised i can get away, if called im likely to let go depending on player/flop but also its the sort of hand that could win a massive hand, and perhaps set me up for the tournie - but TBH i didnt think i would even be called. ) open to opinions on this, but my question lies in the flop . . .

Im called immediately by the player to my left (he's playing 55k). id know him to normally be loose, but as its the final table he seems to have tightened up a fair bit.(he'd also been advertising this to the table, whoever would listen) the only other hand i played with him he had raised 3 limpers, including me, saying he'd AK and didnt wana see a flop etc etc

It was an instant call, which led me to think he hadnt a monster, and perhaps put him on a decent ace or two pictures, or maybe even small/middle pockets ( very wide range, i know!)

flop is Kc 5s Jc

Whats my action now and for the remainder of the hand (and why, strategy and reasoning please), im first to act.

BuChan

lead out for 9000 or so (whatever is you standard cbetting size) and shove over a reraise. if called i'd lead out for 18/20 whether you hit or miss on almost any turn card (even a K, but that's probably wrong). if called again and the river is a brick i'd die a little bit inside. there's not a lot of need for stragey with a hand llike this, a call on the flop and a K or a J on the turn is going to make things tricky other than that you're hand is strong enough to just keep firing away..... i think.

bottom feeder

BuChan wrote:

lead out for 9000 or so (whatever is you standard cbetting size) and shove over a reraise. if called i'd lead out for 18/20 whether you hit or miss on almost any turn card (even a K, but that's probably wrong). if called again and the river is a brick i'd die a little bit inside. there's not a lot of need for stragey with a hand llike this, a call on the flop and a K or a J on the turn is going to make things tricky other than that you're hand is strong enough to just keep firing away..... i think.

eamon why not just push on the turn...!

Goodluck2me

im happy to get it in here v anything barr a set. play FTW!

BuChan

good point wes, i didn't pay close enough attention to the stack size.

kebabfest

The pot is over 10K at this stage , so not bad.
What is his ability to lay down hands and bluff ?
These are important before deciding what to do.
However the fact of the matter is you havent played many hands within the last 4 hours suggests that people think you have the goods.
Bearing this in mind his flat call from 2nd position is fairly fishy (QQ ?)
There is nothing wrong with your initial pre flop raise as your table image suggests strength.
I would be inclined to a check hoping to get a free card. If he does a probing bet I would be shoving it all in.
I think a check call is too weak as the pot will be growing substantially and pot odds will decdiate a call.
Ideally he is something like 99 and just wants to make it to a showdown.
If he checks behind then shove on the turn no matter what.

bops

i crai everytime here if he obliges with a bet

if he checks behind, i bet pot on the turn (if you miss) and bet half pot (if you hit)

if he reraises your turn pot bet - call and pray!! you are priced in

gl

LuckyLloyd

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Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Donal, you can't just say "I'm only interested in the flop decision so lets all ignore my spewy pre - flop play". This is an insta - muck UTG pre - flop. And you just cannot be making huge errors like this pre - flop when playing off a circa 25 BB stack.

You have created an awkward spot for yourself. And I can't see any reason why you would do this. Yes, you play very well post - flop. But we are in a medium stacked situation and UTG with a garbage hand. Come on mate, tighten up.

i dont think its THAT spewy, i think its important even when medium stacked to not have yoru range narrowed down to AQ+ from UTG, especially when he said the table was playing tight, Lloyd UTG is the new button FFS!

semibluff

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Donal, you can't just say "I'm only interested in the flop decision so lets all ignore my spewy pre - flop play". This is an insta - muck UTG pre - flop.

open to opinions on this, but my question lies in the flop . . .
OP




And you just cannot be making huge errors like this pre - flop when playing off a circa 25 BB stack.


.

thanks for the reply lloyd, but as i said in OP i was open to discussion i how i played the hand both pre and post.
i had 33bb before hand starts, leaving myself with 29 bb if this fails, still very comfortable for a final table even including the ante (200 which i had forgotten to mention)

Anyone else agree with LL's opinion?

the questions i asked myself were, if i check raise how much do i raise, presuming he goes the pot, 9k do i push all in - the only problem for this is i think it loooks alot like a draw, but this is the only way the flop can be played that has enough FE.
If he checks behind me, happy days, free turn - and now i pot it? and fold to a re-raise? (only river to come) and if he flat calls i pray for river?
what if i bet out flop, and he min raises? its 18k for me to call,9 k more, and im only playing 18 behind. by pushing now there isnt much is any FE, he has me covered by about 15k.

so if he flat calls flop bet, do we push turn? if he checks behind flop, do we bet pot turn and go to war if any other action (once no K/J)

The second i saw the flop, i knew i was "going to war on this hand", but is it necessary to get all our chips into the middle with this, as, dependent on how played, only a strong hand that is ahead of us will call, or have to call - depending on how we played the flop/turn

jbravado

I dont think preflop is that bad tbh-once your percieved to be playing tight-ish.You are representing a big hand-so its pretty irrelevant that you have the old 7 5sky of clubs.

That flop helps-lol.


I dont think that if you push it looks like a draw really-a good king or aa would certainly be feasible imo.

LuckyLloyd

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bops

semibluff wrote:

thanks for the reply lloyd, but as i said in OP i was open to discussion i how i played the hand both pre and post.
i had 33bb before hand starts, leaving myself with 29 bb if this fails, still very comfortable for a final table even including the ante (200 which i had forgotten to mention)

Anyone else agree with LL's opinion?

I think your PFR is excellent tbh, you have a good rep and have the stack to take the chance - i like your style!

warning - if you get a compliment from me - you are in grave danger of going elbusto!

kebabfest

To win these tournaments you gotta have the ability to change gears.
Making a move such as this is exactly that especially since you've only played a few hands in the last few hours and have a tight image at the table.
Limping is too weak since you've limp \folded before.
The ultimate beauty of this move is that if you win a big pot with a showdown with your 7 5 the next time you make a similiar raise with AA expect serious action.
If everybody played AQ or better UTG on a final table how fcuking boring would that be ?

strewelpeter

BuChan wrote:

...if called again and the river is a brick i'd die a little bit inside....

:rolleyes: Oh the pain of it!!!

Semibluff wrote:

Anyone else agree with LL's opinion?

I can't see how this isn't total spew PF.

mdwexford

the above post is complete garbage (kebabfest's).

Lloyd is of course right preflop is horrible and its not even close, just muck the hand.

as played i check the flop with the intention of crai.
if he checks behind i lead the turn for 8000 if its a club, 7 or 5 and check it if its a blank with the intention of calling a bet.

LuckyLloyd

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phantom_lord

fold pf, just make a standard c-bet now and shove over a raise.

kebabfest

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If you like making big time losing plays to avoid things being "fcuking boring" that really is your own choice. This is not "changing gears". This is playing bad.

So you're saying that if you raise 3xBB with 75 UTG when you have a medium sized stack is simply bad play and not changing gears ? (Also dont forget the tight image and the fact you're in a comfortable position even if somebody makes a move on you.)
Jez what gears you got.
Slow and Stop ?

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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Goodluck2me

kebabfest wrote:

Jez what gears you got.
Slow and Stop ?

that would make a good sig

Luckylloyd wrote:

No, it is THAT spewy. Wow folks. This is the easiest part of the game to get right. And AQ+ is what you should be playing from UTG. Hand selection as per position makes up part of your edge in live Irish tournaments. Deciding that we are randomly going to play this hand as if it was Aces when medium stacked and against players that will just go broke with top pair is not good IMO.

Though I am seeing awful pre - flop play a lot of late from players I would have assumed are solid.

Im not saying that raising 75 UTG is optimal, its just not THAT bad, when the table is playing tight he is opening up his range a bit so that when he does get a hand people will call lighter, he SHOULD NOT be looked up light here as he hasnt played many hands and is UTG, and players are making a mistake by getting involved here v his range.
If players are bad enough to make this kinds of mistakes then i will agree that its not +ev to raise here, but if this was in any way a good standard id like it. (albeit rarely and not to be used often).
Also if you only raise AQ+ from UTG then you will be very easy to play against and will become predictable. I will have to disagree on this particular point.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Joe - Donal noted that the table is check min - raising with regularity and there are fellas noting loudly how tight they are playing this one time. They sound awful.

he also said

Donal wrote:

the table has been very tight, with the majority of raises being respected.

This is where we want to win the pot pre flop obv, and if they are callign wiht KJ etc surely most cont Bets will be successful as they will hit only 1/3 of the time.

You arguement for not C-Betting isnt valid above as its the same when raising AK etc, although the other ones seem quite sound.

ive also said in my edited post that i think the play is only a successful one when playing thinking opponents, so it probably isnt great here, the only hope is that they are playing tight preflop, but in which case id rather wait for a MP raise or the like with ATC instead.

LuckyLloyd

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mrflash

i agree with earlier comments that this is not the time or position to be playing this hand. Based on your comments regarding your opponent in this hand, its quite likely that he is playing kq suited or something in that range. If you consider him loose, then if he has top pair he is going all the way with you, and you only have bottom pair and a low flush draw. you could be in trouble here against too big of a range of hands and that means imo that this is a check fold situation. if you want to go for the win, you just stay sensible at bubble time. its not a time for moving with suited one gappers. i don't believe in betting out here, its just to dangerous, unless you are willing to shove and shoving here is foolish in my estimation.

LuckyLloyd

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kebabfest

"Changing gears" is something to try when in position in unopened pots or against weak passive morons who like limping.[/QUOTE]

Rubbish.

sikes

All the cool kids steal from UTG these days. But raising to 4500 at the 1200/600 is like stealing then dropping the loot on your way out the door.

On the flop, I just bet out and 3bet all in, or alternatively if called, shove any turn.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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kebabfest

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Rubbish.

Glad you think so. I like your well reasoned arguments for why you believe that to be the case.[/QUOTE]

Good.

connie147

kebabfest wrote:

"Changing gears" is something to try when in position in unopened pots or against weak passive morons who like limping.

Rubbish.[/QUOTE]
I kinda like LL's reasoning and explanations of it. If your gonna come on and dismiss it in a one word post as in "rubbish", at least have the decency to explain why LL's thinking is so flawed in your expert opinion.

To the op, why would you play tight all day and then move from utg with rubbish. I can understand that play from mid to late position if your first into the pot(or better again,after limpers), but its not a good idea utg.As played, your looking to get your chips in if your cont bet is raised while your opponnent could easily have your flush draw dominated.
If the table is playing as you say,you'll surely find much easier spots to steal blinds from with the tight rep you have earned.

kebabfest

"Changing gears" is something which I firmly believe you should be able to do at any stage of any tournament and not only when the poker police deems it viable.
I just disagree completely and utterly with the statement which restricts the times whenever changing gears should be used.
How simplier can I put it ?

mrflash

kebabfest wrote:

"Changing gears" is something which I firmly believe you should be able to do at any stage of any tournament and not only when the poker police deems it viable.
I just disagree completely and utterly with the statement which restricts the times whenever changing gears should be used.
How simplier can I put it ?

changing gears is one thing but your out of position with a nothing hand here. you have bottom pair against a looser player and a really low flush draw. this is not the time for this sort of action. changing gears is where you have good reads and you put them to use or when you use your position at the table like working from the bb as far as the cutoff.

mrflash

what you are describing here is gambling and loosing the head when you are in position to win a tournament.

Lazare

kebabfest wrote:

"Changing gears" is something which I firmly believe you should be able to do at any stage of any tournament and not only when the poker police deems it viable.
I just disagree completely and utterly with the statement which restricts the times whenever changing gears should be used.
How simplier can I put it ?

I think you're way off the mark here and somewhat confused. Opening from UTG with ATC after only playing 4 hands in over an hour is changing gears, Lloyd never disputed that, the point is it's the most unprofitable time and the riskiest time to do it. Loosening up in LP, raising limpers and 3-betting with ATC is way more profitable and less of a risk.

kebabfest

Lazare wrote:

I think you're way off the mark here and somewhat confused. Opening from UTG with ATC after only playing 4 hands in over an hour is changing gears, Lloyd never disputed that, the point is it's the most unprofitable time and the riskiest time to do it. Loosening up in LP, raising limpers and 3-betting with ATC is way more profitable and less of a risk.

If you read the total thread you'll find he did dispute this. However I am not particularly interested in getting in a semantics debate.

What I simply said is I disagree with the statement below.

Changing gears" is something to try when in position in unopened pots or against weak passive morons who like limping.

Now when I mean I disagree with it I mean I dont agree with it.:eek:

My logic being you should not restrict yourself to this circumstances to change gears as it is too predictable.

Lazare

kebabfest wrote:

My logic being you should not restrict yourself to this circumstances to change gears as it is too predictable.

Meta game considerations at a live 7 handed final table are pointless.

The ultimate beauty of this move is that if you win a big pot with a showdown with your 7 5 the next time you make a similiar raise with AA expect serious action.
If everybody played AQ or better UTG on a final table how fcuking boring would that be ?

You don't have to go crazy UTG in order to get big EP hands paid off. Playing LAG from LP is enough. Anyway, changing gears is a lot more than just spontaneously opening with trash from UTG just because you haven't played a hand in an hour. It's about adapting profitably to changing table conditions,
and UTG with rags is the most unprofitable time to adapt to a tight table. Showing down that hand and remaining in the game will force you to play far too tight to survive. It does nothing that a LP raise won't do with OP's image.

semibluff

the pre flop raise seemed to be the table norm aswell. with the antes of 200m thats a total of 3200 in the middle already, so perhaps 4k would have sufficed, as opposed to the normal 4*bb

initially i agree with sikes that a 3 bet on flop should be ok, but our last bet has little if any FE, but i think it would be a must, as we must see all five cards if we're commiting at that stage, and a club turn could kill the action for us and our remaining 20k or so (if we had bet out, and only called the min raise on flop)

In defence of the pre, i think that it would have needed a large hand pre to call me as the table had been played, and if not re-raised (as i would be by a monster i imagined) i could win the pot with a continuation bet most of the time. My utg raise would have been alot stronger and believable than a cut off or button raise the risk that i walk into a monster is less when betting in late position, granted, but to risk getting through one or two more players - the added value that should have been given to my hand because of the position of my raise is important. (two of those on the table, who wernt the rocks would have noticed this, the others either had the cards or hadnt)