Should Dublin be split for the good of GAA in the Capital

johnnog

It's something I've often argued about before with people and it may have been a previous topic on this board but what do people out there think.

Basically would it be better in the long term for GAA in the capital if it was split up into say two teams? Short term it might be a disaster but would it be better in the long term. I'm not too sure how it is structured underage-wise at present but as far as I am aware I think that they had North and South development squads but only one team competing in competitions.

Obviously this should or couldn't be done straight away , but maybe it could be built up over time, starting with the underage teams. There must be a lot of talented kids out there particularly who don't get the opportunity for development that they would if they were in another county.

I was just interested as to what people think.

Sure I suppose manager wise at least then you could simply have half of the current 14 managers over each team

One Cold Hand

Absolutely no way...

Stimpyone

For the love of Jaysus!!, no!!.

I believe this was originally touted by the GAA in order to wrangle more money out of the Dublin fans who are already taking a giant one in the arse.

I'm sick of the GAA ( both central and Leinster ) using us as a cash cow and then scrutinising and lambasting every little thing that players and fans do.

*rant over*

redzerdrog

they fail to win the all ireland with one team

blackbelt

God no.One team for every county.Let the northside and southside guys play together for the cause of Dublin.This argument stems from northside v southside when all that slagging is in real good taste.

johnnog

My question is nothing to do with money or failure/success to win with one team. I don't see how splitting the team would get more money out of the supporters. For one thing, it would probably result in fairly weak teams for a few years which would mean no big quarter-final paydays for Croke Park.
What I'm asking is if there were two teams, would it make football stronger in the long run. In other words how many 18/19 year olds are out there with the potential to do the business on the big stage but don't get the opportunity to develop what they have.

Other counties generally always have a few fairly young players in their squads. Who's the youngest on the current Dublin team? I think it's probably McConnell. I don't know what age he is. Bernard Brogan is seemingly the newest star on the block but I think he's about 23. Vaughan would be young enough as well I suppose. Meath won an all-Ireland in '96 with four under-20's on the pitch. Giles wouldn't have been much older. I couldn't see that situation arising in Dublin.

I think that Cullen is the only current member of the squad whose club isn't playing at senior level (Or what used to be called senior). Then again they only dropped down in the recent enough past so they were probably senior when he was making the headlines U17 or whatever. There must be plenty of talented younger players coming through in lower division clubs who just won't get the opportunity because of the league they are in. The dublin leagues are fairly static for the most part, unlike other counties. You very rarely see a rapid progression up through the leagues of any club in Dublin. Well it has happened for at least one club but it is rare. So if your club isn't one of the top clubs, who are often bouyed up by players from other counties, then you may not get a look in. If you are not getting the football at 18 or 19 then it's probably too late.

Nalced_irl

Simple answer, No! Should Kilkenny also be split, Kerry too? Tyrone maybe? All these counties would have plenty of talented players not getting the same chance also. As for the money thing, of course it would benifit the GAA. Having Dublin play twice in championship games ect. If Dublin was split, both sides would see full houses in CP when they played there. All i can say, if this ever happened, i would boycott all GAA matches.

johnnog

blackbelt wrote:

God no.One team for every county.Let the northside and southside guys play together for the cause of Dublin.This argument stems from northside v southside when all that slagging is in real good taste.

At the risk of seeming a bit pedantic, the county of Dublin no longer officially exists and hasn't done so for over a decade. And before anybody starts up about the great Irish traditional county, counties are based on subdivisions done by the English to assist in administering the country!

johnnog

Nalced_irl wrote:

Simple answer, No! Should Kilkenny also be split, Kerry too? Tyrone maybe? All these counties would have plenty of talented players not getting the same chance also. As for the money thing, of course it would benifit the GAA. Having Dublin play twice in championship games ect. If Dublin was split, both sides would see full houses in CP when they played there. All i can say, if this ever happened, i would boycott all GAA matches.

Do they have similar populations playing the games? I don't know but I doubt it. I do know that there are probably well over 200 adult football teams in the Dublin leagues though.

There used to be seperate leagues within Dublin into the 90's when the Fingal leagues amalgamated with the rest of Dublin. I don't remember the structure quite correctly and it may have only been for intermediate or junior level.

mikemac

Pffft....lol at the Dubs with their northside/southside divide :rolleyes:

There's only one county in Ireland that's properly split into in North and South:
Tipperary since 1898:p

Not in GAA terms though

johnnog

micmclo wrote:

Pffft....lol at the Dubs with their northside/southside divide :rolleyes:

There's only one county in Ireland that's properly split into in North and South:
Tipperary since 1898:p

Not in GAA terms though

Tipperary was split into Tipperary North and South Ridings. A riding was some sort of subdivision of a county and it was obviously done by the Brits if it was back in 1898. It may have since been given county status. Dublin was officially dissolved and split into three counties in the early 90's. It's not quite northside/southside.

mikemac

At the risk of dragging this topic off thread if Co. Dublin doesn't exist (highly interesting fact) and I wanted to be pedantic, should I post letters to Swords, Fingal instead of Co. Dublin for example?

The two councils in Tipp stopped using "Riding" since 2002. Not sure if they have full county status though. Must check that out

Flukey

One Dublin, one team.

johnnog

micmclo wrote:

At the risk of dragging this topic off thread if Co. Dublin doesn't exist (highly interesting fact) and I wanted to be pedantic, should I post letters to Swords, Fingal instead of Co. Dublin for example?

Well it'd get there one way or the other. I've gotten some obscurely mistaken addressed letters delivered. I've gotten a letter that was posted to me to the wrong county(It was posted to the next county alphebetically so it was obviously a case of someone not clicking on the correct option on a drop-down menu). The best example I can think of was one my sister recieved a few years ago. It was addressed to

Ms. <firstname> <surname>
<townland>
<parish>
Co. <Surname>

so even though she was temporaily given her own county it go to her.

If you post a letter to Swords, Fingal I'm sure it would get there the same as if you post it to Swords Co. Dublin.

That said, Fingal Co. Council gives it's address as Swords,Fingal,Co. Dublin.
I don't know officially what you should use. Postal districts often don't coincide with parishes etc. You could be in one parish but your postal address could be that of another parish! I presume the reason is that the parishes predate the division by postal services. It doesn't really make any difference as long as the letter gets there I suppose.


Slightly off topic so apologies to everyone.


Have a look here if you want to read the official statute on the dissolving of Co. Dublin. You can click on previous/forward to read the rest of the act (if anybody is bothered to ). The wording of the act is that the county of Dublin will cease to exist on a given day and be replaced by three administrative counties.

At the end of the day it's sort of irrelevant but could possibly be a boundary to split the county. Fingal on it's own and let the other two stick together. Dun Laoighre-Rathdown and South Dublin would probably have more of the senior clubs.

Here's a map of County Fingal for anyone who's interested by the way.

Dac51

micmclo wrote:

At the risk of dragging this topic off thread if Co. Dublin doesn't exist (highly interesting fact) and I wanted to be pedantic, should I post letters to Swords, Fingal instead of Co. Dublin for example?

The two councils in Tipp stopped using "Riding" since 2002. Not sure if they have full county status though. Must check that out

Tipperary North and Tipperary South are two official counties in their own right, completely independent of each othe from a local goverment point of view.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I'd like to see it happen. Though potentially the biggest problem would be deciding who gets the hill.

K-9

Stimpyone wrote:

For the love of Jaysus!!, no!!.

I believe this was originally touted by the GAA in order to wrangle more money out of the Dublin fans who are already taking a giant one in the arse.

I'm sick of the GAA ( both central and Leinster ) using us as a cash cow and then scrutinising and lambasting every little thing that players and fans do.

*rant over*

How are Dublin a cash cow?

Pride Fighter

Apparently in a couple of years Dublin is going to have 3 senior hurling teams. North Dublin in the Nicky Rackard cup, South Dublin in the Ring cup and the senior team in the main championship as it is now. It will not affect football and I think it could give hurling in the capital a good boost. I heard that this is being planned for the near future, not sure when it will happen though. And hell no, we should not be sub-divided!!

johnnog

Pride Fighter wrote:

Apparently in a couple of years Dublin is going to have 3 senior hurling teams. North Dublin in the Nicky Rackard cup, South Dublin in the Ring cup and the senior team in the main championship as it is now. It will not affect football and I think it could give hurling in the capital a good boost. I heard that this is being planned for the near future, not sure when it will happen though. And hell no, we should not be sub-divided!!

I think that might actually be happening next year---the hurling I mean. How about then trying to enter one team into the football championship proper and enter two teams in the Tommy Murphy cup from the rest of the players. I don't know where you'd draw the boundary. I was only suggesting Fingal because that's already a well defined boundary. Or even maybe try splitting up the county on a trial basis for the O'Byrne cup. Sure they were letting Athlone IT and other colleges enter that competition! I'd sure that Dublin could manage to throw together two teams that could compete. Sure that'd be a great boost for the county. You'd have two teams of lads fighting it out for places for the Summer!

If it'd give a boost to hurling then why not football?

Flukey

You'd have two teams of lads fighting it out for places for the Summer!

They'd be the same group of lads that are fighting for places now, so there is no difference. In fact, as there are many clubs that these players play for, you have a lot more than two teams of lads fighting it out for places on the county team, even allowing for the fact that many Dublin club players are from other counties. Also, having just one team makes it harder to get on it, and make players try harder to do so. So one team, for all of Dublin, will make competition for places much stronger which is good for the team and the players. One Dublin, one team. I'd say the same for all other counties too.

Nalced_irl

I honestly cannot believe anyone would say this is a good idea. It makes absolutely no sense! I would guarentee there is less competition for places on the Dublin team than there is in Kerry for example. Population doesnt matter in the slightest.

popebenny16

There is no more North Riding/South Ridings any more in Tipp - They are full Councils - North Tipperary County Council and South Tipperary County Council. However, all addresses are still Co. Tipperary.

For Dublin all I can think of as a good point is that it must be very hard for the Senior County Team managment to scout all of the teams in the country for talent given the numbers involved. That said, a simple division of labour and proper scouts could achieve that.

Big minus for me is that it'll lead to a proliferation of blazers - three county boards = three times the officials. It would also lead to the certantly that our old beloved friend John Bailey and his cronies making a comeback.

Breezer

popebenny16 wrote:

There is no more North Riding/South Ridings any more in Tipp - They are full Councils - North Tipperary County Council and South Tipperary County Council. However, all addresses are still Co. Tipperary.

Driving through Tipperary recently I noticed that roadsigns as you enter and leave towns say either "Tipperary North Riding County Council" and "South Tipperary County Council."

Also, Trevor Sargent gives his constituency address as "Swords, Co Fingal," but as mentioned Fingal Co Co is in "Swords, Fingal, Co Dublin." Also the post codes are a different system - Rathfarnham is both Dublin 14 and Dublin 16, and the Dublin 16 part is split into Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown and South Dublin districts. Places as far apart as Dun Laoghaire, Lucan, and indeed Swords are all Co Dublin.

Anyway, to address the point - NO! There is a bigger population here but there is nowhere else in the country that GAA is competing with so many other sports. Down the country most schools play GAA, here they'd be in the minority, after rugby and even hockey schools.

Nalced_irl

Technically Dublin 14 is Rathfarnham and Dublin 16 starts at Ballinteer as far as i know. I actually live 10 houses away from where Dublin 14 goes into Dublin 16, but the Dublin 16 houses near me would still consider themselves Rathfarnham.

johnnog

Breezer wrote:

Anyway, to address the point - NO! There is a bigger population here but there is nowhere else in the country that GAA is competing with so many other sports. Down the country most schools play GAA, here they'd be in the minority, after rugby and even hockey schools.

Well what about the point that it might help generate more interest in the sport, particularly among kids.How many U12/14/16 teams play in Dublin in total. There'd be a fair few divisions. Much more than would play in Kerry for example. (This is a total guess by the way , I could actually be wrong). Down the country you'd nearly always have the local GAA legend, whether current or past and they would give a high profile to the game. The point is , that in Dublin you don't really have that so much. If the notion of playing for your county was percieved as being more accessible you'd get kids thinking "I want to do that". Of course you're going to get them thinking that at 12 when but not at 17/18 when they get a bit realistic.


(It's a point for a different thread but there's also the point that the current Dublin squad are all fairly well-built and great athletes but that also makes it harder for say a young up and coming star to break into the squad unless he builds himself up over time to be comparable. While it is great to be so well conditioned it can also lead to the situation that the hard part is getting onto the squad but once you are there for a while you know that it's going to be hard for anyone else to get on to take your place. The point being that as Dublin have such an amount of players to pick from , they seem to tend to pick great athletes and then try to make footballers out of them, whereas other counties can do the opposite. How many of the current squad first made their names as hurlers? Ryan/Keaney/Connelly and I think ther's another few also).

The original question in the thread title was "should it be split for the good of the game", not necessarily for the immediate good of the senior county team who, at the end of the day, are only 30 odd elite people.

An Citeog

johnnog wrote:

How many of the current squad first made their names as hurlers? Ryan/Keaney/Connelly and I think ther's another few also).

The original question in the thread title was "should it be split for the good of the game", not necessarily for the immediate good of the senior county team who, at the end of the day, are only 30 odd elite people.

Lol, Connolly made his name from hurling!! This is a lad who's just turned 20. He hasn't had the chance yet to make a name for himself! He was never even picked for the Dublin minor hurlers, although he should have been.

Splitting Dublin would be criminal. Yes, it may give a chance to the lads who mightn't get the chance otherwise but that's what the junior team is supposed to be for. The problem in Dublin isn't at the intercounty level, it's the clubs and those players who are completely ignored by the county boards for the summer months. If Dublin were to be split, interest would be completely diluted. There's a lot more than the development of our footballers to think about here.

johnnog

An Citeog wrote:

Lol, Connolly made his name from hurling!! This is a lad who's just turned 20. He hasn't had the chance yet to make a name for himself! He was never even picked for the Dublin minor hurlers, although he should have been.

I suppose it depends what you count as "made your name".(I'd class making a county panel as making your name because I'd be thinking on local terms, not necessarily getting man of the match in an AI final). Perhaps I should have said was first noticed or first came to prominence (by the people who matter-->the selectors and 14 managers not the journalists in the Metro AM). You could argue that none of the Dublin hurlers are ever going to "make their name" then if you take the definition that they are well known in the media or outside the county! I'm not claiming anything about their hurling ability, good bad or indifferent, only that they seemed to have prospered there before being enticed over by the glamour of the football. Keaney being the perfect example. Sure how many of the Hill crowd would even know Connelly at this stage. He hasn't had too many minutes on the pitch this year. I'd imagine though that the hurling followers would know him and have known him for a bit longer than the footballers.

Anyway, that's off the point.

An Citeog wrote:

Splitting Dublin would be criminal. Yes, it may give a chance to the lads who mightn't get the chance otherwise but that's what the junior team is supposed to be for.

The junior team is a second tier competition and to be eligible to play at that level you must not have played in your county senior championship the previous year. You wouldn't necessarily have the same 15 on a junior IC team that you might have on an extra senior team . There'd be a slight overlap but not much.

An Citeog wrote:

The problem in Dublin isn't at the intercounty level, it's the clubs and those players who are completely ignored by the county boards for the summer months.

Read the last line of my previous post. I didn't create this post to discuss the direct advantages/disadvantes to the IC team. Do you not think that maybe if the Dublin Co. Board wasn't so unwieldy then it might be able to organise things a bit better. It has to look after ,what, about 15 leagues when at the end of the day it's probably only the top two/three that they really give a damn about.

An Citeog wrote:

If Dublin were to be split, interest would be completely diluted. There's a lot more than the development of our footballers to think about here.

What do you mean exactly by that? Is it better to aim towards having a "Man Utd." sort of setup where there are loads of supporters at each game but purely for entertainment purposes? You are not going to discourage the genuine die hard supporters, and there are plenty of them in Dublin. They are the people who breathe life in to the games and do all the ground work at local level. You'd only encourage more die-hards by having more of a local element in it. I think you'd be better off losing 1000 fair-weather fans and gaining 10 die-hards because the die-hards are going to put something back into the game.(I'm not saying/claiming anything specifically about Dublin and sunshine supporters in case anyone thinks otherwise).



Anyways, most people seem to think it'd be a bad idea. I'm not convinced though. What about the idea of entering two teams in the O'Byrne cup? People haven't made any comments on that idea. Maybe split on a city/county would be more balanced than on a Fingal/rest split. Count anything inside the M50 as city.

An Citeog

johnnog wrote:

I suppose it depends what you count as "made your name".(I'd class making a county panel as making your name because I'd be thinking on local terms, not necessarily getting man of the match in an AI final). Perhaps I should have said was first noticed or first came to prominence (by the people who matter-->the selectors and 14 managers not the journalists in the Metro AM). You could argue that none of the Dublin hurlers are ever going to "make their name" then if you take the definition that they are well known in the media or outside the county! I'm not claiming anything about their hurling ability, good bad or indifferent, only that they seemed to have prospered there before being enticed over by the glamour of the football. Keaney being the perfect example. Sure how many of the Hill
crowd would even know Connelly at this stage. He hasn't had too many minutes on the pitch this year. I'd imagine though that the hurling followers would know him and have known him for a bit longer than the footballers.

At the risk of going off on a tangent, I'll just clarify. I accept your Keaney point and it's a real shame that he chose to concentrate solely on football. Such are the demands of the modern game though. The same can be said for Sean Óg, Keith Higgins from Mayo, Alan Kerins, Declan Browne etc. Connolly on the other hand has 'made his name' primarily as a footballer. He has never played senior intercounty hurling. The reason that hurling followers may know him well is because they are closer to the club game in the county. There also tends to be a huge overlap with the real Dublin football fans here. There are plenty of good hurlers on the Dublin senior football panel who just haven't got the time to commit to hurling eg. Shane Ryan, Mossy Quinn, Cluxton, David Henry and a few others.

johnnog wrote:

The junior team is a second tier competition and to be eligible to play at that level you must not have played in your county senior championship the previous year. You wouldn't necessarily have the same 15 on a junior IC team that you might have on an extra senior team . There'd be a slight overlap but not much.

The reason I mentioned the juniors was because people talk of good players at junior and intermediate level who may never get noticed. This is their chance to shine. At senior level, we have the club championships and plenty of players are called up to the senior footballers based on performances for their clubs. Of the players from Dublin on this years Blue Stars team, only Pat Gilroy (too old for IC) and Willie Lowry (broken leg) aren't on the current Dublin panel. There are plenty of Dublin selectors to scout the club championships and colleges aswell. Ross McConnell was called on to the Dublin panel based mainly on his performances for DCU in the Sigerson cup in 2006. If players are good enough, they'll get the call-up.

johnnog wrote:

Read the last line of my previous post. I didn't create this post to discuss the direct advantages/disadvantes to the IC team. Do you not think that maybe if the Dublin Co. Board wasn't so unwieldy then it might be able to organise things a bit better. It has to look after ,what, about 15 leagues when at the end of the day it's probably only the top two/three that they really give a damn about.

Agree with you here.

johnnog wrote:

What do you mean exactly by that? Is it better to aim towards having a "Man Utd." sort of setup where there are loads of supporters at each game but purely for entertainment purposes? You are not going to discourage the genuine die hard supporters, and there are plenty of them in Dublin. They are the people who breathe life in to the games and do all the ground work at local level. You'd only encourage more die-hards by having more of a local element in it. I think you'd be better off losing 1000 fair-weather fans and gaining 10 die-hards because the die-hards are going to put something back into the game.(I'm not saying/claiming anything specifically about Dublin and sunshine supporters in case anyone thinks otherwise).

That's the thing. These die-hards are Dublin fans and Dublin is a county, just like the other 31 in Ireland. I'm from Dublin, not from the city area of Dublin bounded by the M50. From Balbriggan to Ballyboden and Blanchardstown to Baldoyle (sorry Malahide would have ruined it! ), Dublin fans unite to support their county. That's what I mean. You can't just change the county boundaries because you feel it might be better that way.

johnog wrote:

Anyways, most people seem to think it'd be a bad idea. I'm not convinced though. What about the idea of entering two teams in the O'Byrne cup? People haven't made any comments on that idea. Maybe split on a city/county would be more balanced than on a Fingal/rest split. Count anything inside the M50 as city.

I think it's a bad idea. The O'Byrne Cup is already the place to try out some new faces. But that's just my 2 cents.

gavo82

Im sorry but splitting Dublin into two reams is a terrible idea.

Killme00

An Citeog wrote:

I accept your Keaney point and it's a real shame that he chose to concentrate solely on football.

This is funny, he chose to concentrate solely of football, he was told to choose. their is a difference!!

And we will be okay as long as we hang on to Mccrabber!!

premierstone

Killme00 wrote:

This is funny, he chose to concentrate solely of football, he was told to choose. their is a difference!!

And we will be okay as long as we hang on to Mccrabber!!

He's a grown man for christ sake so yes he did choose football and tbh who would blame him

baztard

Given the huge population, I think it should be split into 3 teams (north, south, west) for all age groups up as far as U.21's, then have one single Senior Team. This would give the younger crowd a far better chance of playing for their 'subi county' and encourage competition within Dublin and a higher standard of players as a result. The senior team can remain as it is, drawing far more experienced and higher standard players from all 3 sub counties.

Pride Fighter

Noooo!!!!!!!!!

Nalced_irl

premierstone wrote:

He's a grown man for christ sake so yes he did choose football and tbh who would blame him

absolutely. Id say 10 out of 10 players would make the same choice in his position.

An Citeog

Killme00 wrote:

This is funny, he chose to concentrate solely of football, he was told to choose. their is a difference!!

And we will be okay as long as we hang on to Mccrabber!!

It's not as if he was told to choose just out of spite though. The demands of modern intercounty football and hurling make it pretty much impossible to continue playing both up to senior intercounty level. It's just too much. A lad who plays on my college team, for example, plays senior & U21 hurling for his county, is captain of the U21 footballers, plays senior & U21 for his club in both and also plays hurling and football for the college. That's where player burn-out becomes a major factor.

I wasn't having a go at Conal Keaney and completely understand why he and other dual-players choose (or are forced to choose) to concentrate on the one code.

Nalced_irl

It would be a huge strain to do both id say. I think Keaney had college exams also at the time he decided to go with football if i remember correctly. It is close to impossible to do both and you would only end up playing to less than your potential in the two games.

daytrader

yes split them up, one county one team, thats four counties for the "dublin region", don't forget Dublin city.

Killme00

One Dublin One Team

except for the OByrne Cup

daytrader

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_ireland

Not one county anymore!

anyhow it would give 60 players the chance to play in the championship instead of 15. With the population of Dublin they should have one team for each county ( 4 teams) and give more a chance to play, thats what it's about...playing.

An Citeog

daytrader wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_ireland

Not one county anymore!

anyhow it would give 60 players the chance to play in the championship instead of 15. With the population of Dublin they should have one team for each county ( 4 teams) and give more a chance to play, thats what it's about...playing.

Does that mean Cork, Galway, Waterford et al should be split into city and county teams and Tipperary into north and south aswell?:rolleyes:

Dublin = 1 county = 1 team

Just leave the thread to die.

Pride Fighter

An Citeog wrote: »

Does that mean Cork, Galway, Waterford et al should be split into city and county teams and Tipperary into north and south aswell?:rolleyes:

Dublin = 1 county = 1 team

Just leave the thread to die.

It died 5 months ago. Bloody thread reviver's.

DublinDes

johnnog wrote: »

It's something I've often argued about before with people and it may have been a previous topic on this board but what do people out there think.

Basically would it be better in the long term for GAA in the capital if it was split up into say two teams? Short term it might be a disaster but would it be better in the long term. I'm not too sure how it is structured underage-wise at present but as far as I am aware I think that they had North and South development squads but only one team competing in competitions.

Obviously this should or couldn't be done straight away , but maybe it could be built up over time, starting with the underage teams. There must be a lot of talented kids out there particularly who don't get the opportunity for development that they would if they were in another county.

I was just interested as to what people think.

Sure I suppose manager wise at least then you could simply have half of the current 14 managers over each team

The revolver is in the post johnnog, please use it. :mad: