GAA hurling championship

observer

after yeserday's heartbreak (i'm not a waterford fan btw) i really do feel the championship is such a flawed system. kilkenny have not been faced a munster opponent on their way to a final. waterford are beaten once this year and are out. the play 3 massive games in 14 days. i can't understand hoe the all ireland series in both football and hurling has not been transformed into a straight all-ireland series (i.e open draw from the beginning - straight knockout) well i understand the economics of the second chance but i don't think any waterford player will look at their munster medal and their league medal and feel any better this morning

the provincal championship are a farce and have lost their importance due to the back door. it is time to get rid of them.

Amazotheamazing

Surely it's time for the Munster championship to a stand alone competition with an open draw for a separate All Ireland Championship? The Munster Championship still counts for an awful lot, imo.

I agree it's lousy on Waterford that it ends the way it did.

Kojak

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Surely it's time for the Munster championship to a stand alone competition with an open draw for a separate All Ireland Championship?

If there was an open draw, then surely it would have to be knock-out?? At the moment there are too many meaningless lob-sided matches in order to get the 8 obvious teams into the 1/4 finals. Maybe next year it will be slightly better with only 2 1/4 finals, but still there will be hammerings for the likes of Laois and Antrim.

It was unlucky on Waterford to have to play the 2 teams they had already beaten in the championship. If there was a rule that 2 teams couldn't meet until the final, then it would have been a more interesting championship overall...

Diarmuid

It's tough to lose like that, but you are going to have the claim of "beaten by a team they already beat" unless you go back to the straight knockout you had for years. Hurling suffers as a whole in that case.

AlphaMale 3OO

its a terribly flawed format. Kilkenny cruise through unchallenged by the luck of the draw while Waterford just keep getting reacquainted with the monkey they thought they had got off of their backs (Cork and Limerick). Its a big ask for a team to perform well week in week out and the law of averages suggested that Waterfords time was up. Pity because they are the best team in this years championship.

Aido c

It is a disadvantage to win a provincial final in football.
Six weeks off in anything is a disadvantage...

And what happened to that rule where you cannot play teams you previously beat?

Diarmuid

Aido c wrote:

nd what happened to that rule where you cannot play teams you previously beat?

By definition, it has to be a pure knockout for this to hold.

WhatsGoingOn

observer wrote:

waterford are beaten once this year and are out.

Kilkenny are unbeaten and they are not out.

ChippingSodbury

I was at the game yesterday and I'm still not back down to earth fully. I've been following Limerick since I don't know when and have suffered so much heartbreak over the years. My dad had a picture of the '73 All Ireland winning team on the wall of the kitchen for as long as I can remember until it was taken down a few years ago. The space is still on the wall hopefully to be taken up by the All Ireland winning team of '07!! I feel desperately disappointed for the Waterford boys: we've gone through the same for as many years too. As Richie Bennis said yesterday, it was tough that it had to be Waterford, but that's sport.
Limerick can only play by the rules set up for the Championship: please don't hold it against them for reaching the final by this route. So come on and get behind the Shannonsiders for the 2nd September. Limerick beat the Cats in '73 so maybe it's fate....

MayMay

Wouldn't it be just brilliant if Limerick won it this year? I think everyone is sick of Cork and Kilkenny winning ever year, it'd be great to see Limerick steal the crown. Hard luck on Waterford but they shouldn't have gotten that free against Cork a few weeks ago so they were lucky to be there yesterday.

BrandonBlock

I don't think Limerick have a chance personally, look at their run up to the final:

Draw with Tipp
Draw with Tipp again,
Win against Tipp (by 3 pts)
Lose against Waterford (by 9 pts)
Win against Clare (by 7 pts)
Win against Waterford (by 5 pts)

And I think most people agree that Waterford lost that game, Limerick didn't "win" it. As been said on this thread, their opponents (Waterford) were playing 3 intense games in 14 days.

Compare above to Kilkennys road:
Win against Offaly (by 14 pts)
Win against Wexford (by 15 pts)
Win against Galway (by 10 pts)
Win against Wexford (by 10 pts)

Having said that, I hope whoever plays best on the day lifts the trophy.

Flukey

i don't think any waterford player will look at their munster medal and their league medal and feel any better this morning

Ah, but remember what it meant on the day they won it and the morning after. I'd love to see them win an All-Ireland, but none of them will ever devalue their Munster medals. They are out, but they still come away with a trophy that is very hard to win. They want the bigger one, and we'd all love to see it happen and they have to keep plugging away to do it.

Hard luck on Waterford but they shouldn't have gotten that free against Cork a few weeks ago

True. It should have been a penalty.

mossieh

BrandonBlock wrote:

And I think most people agree that Waterford lost that game, Limerick didn't "win" it.

Come again? Limerick had a ten point lead after twenty minutes. They then withstood a Waterford comeback and showed the character to close it out at the end and win by five. How did they not 'win' it? Do you have a different definition for the word 'win' to the rest of us?

Everyone feels for Waterford without a doubt but Limerick won that match and they could win the next one too.

To answer the original point, the backdoor system is not working, that much is clear. Could we have two championships, 1 for Munster and 1 for the rest of the country with the all-Ireland being decided by a play off between the respective championship winners?

rebs23

You'd have to feel sympathy for Waterford and the system is seriously flawed with KK almost guranteed an easy run to the Final/Semi every year while the Munster teams have a good few battles before they reach the same stage and are knackered by the time they get to face KK.

I suppose it was the same for Kerry in the football for a long time but the only solution is an open draw for the Hurling. Much as I hate to say it the Provincial system must be abandoned and force KK to play more games away from their adopted home, Croke Park.
I fear for Limerick in the final but please please please let them beat KK, let Henry Shefflin, Tommy Walsh, etc have an almighty collective off day or else we could be looking at a repeat of last years football final.

Erin Go Brath

BrandonBlock wrote:

I don't think Limerick have a chance personally, look at their run up to the final:

Draw with Tipp
Draw with Tipp again,
Win against Tipp (by 3 pts)
Lose against Waterford (by 9 pts)
Win against Clare (by 7 pts)
Win against Waterford (by 5 pts)

The earlier games are irrelevant at this stage. Look back to earlier in the season, and Dublin beat Limerick, and drew with Kilkenny. The All-Ireland series proper only starts at the AI Quarter Final stage. The provinicals, and leagues are absolutely irrelevant now, as all the main teams are going to be in the quaters anyway.

BrandonBlock wrote:

And I think most people agree that Waterford lost that game, Limerick didn't "win" it. As been said on this thread, their opponents (Waterford) were playing 3 intense games in 14 days.

Thats being very disrespectful to a Limerick team who had been written off completely by pundits and fans alike, and who came out to give one of the best performances of their lives.

blackbelt

Life isn't exactly fair and neither is sport for that matter.KK will always cruise to the late stages with their only competitive match being against Wexford sometimes.Munster hurling is what makes it popular.

I feel sorry for Waterford in a sense because they had the momentum.A League trophy and Munster championship under their belt will not satisfy them on reflection.Maybe they missed the boat this year as far as winning the McCarthy Cup is concerned.

However,in saying all this,if you are the best team in the country,you should be able to beat any team on any day.Cork were unlucky to draw,beat and then lose to Kerry last year.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

i think there should be a munster championship as normal, and another 'rest of the country' championship which would have kilkenny, offaly, wexford, galway, antrim and dublin.

blackbelt

Tanner Old Gate wrote:

i think there should be a munster championship as normal, and another 'rest of the country' championship which would have kilkenny, offaly, wexford, galway, antrim and dublin.

Exactly.It would make hurling more competitive especially for up and coming teams like Dublin,Westmeath and Antrim.

On a side note and I'm not trying to go off topic but I feel it relevent to criticise the KK County Board.If KK only spend their funds on hurling,its obviously going to give them an unfair advantage.They should be fielding a football team as well.I'm sure there are 15 bodies interested in playing football.What a disgrace.

cruiserweight

observer wrote:

after yeserday's heartbreak (i'm not a waterford fan btw) i really do feel the championship is such a flawed system. kilkenny have not been faced a munster opponent on their way to a final. waterford are beaten once this year and are out. the play 3 massive games in 14 days.

Under the old system Kilkenny may not have had to face a Munster opponent either, and Kilkenny have not lost any games in the Championship yet this year.

Munster hurling is more competitive than Leinster hurling, but that is because you have more teams at the same level. Over the last few years Kilkenny, Cork and Waterford have been much better than all of the other teams. Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Wexford have been a bit behind, but could beat one of the top teams on a given day. Given that there are five teams competing in Munster and only two in Leinster it makes it more exciting at the moment. Unless there is an open draw I would not be so hasty as to abandon the Leinster championship. Dublin are up and coming, and they have structure and facilities in place to help hurling grow in the capital. Offaly have gone backwards in the last few years but their U-21 team made the Leinster final this year and they could come once again.

But lets not forget that in terms of all-irelands there are 3 teams well ahead of everybody else, the Limerick's, Wexford's, Waterford's etc. have had some success but All-Ireland winning teams for these counties don't come along very often

blackbelt wrote:

On a side note and I'm not trying to go off topic but I feel it relevent to criticise the KK County Board.If KK only spend their funds on hurling,its obviously going to give them an unfair advantage.They should be fielding a football team as well.I'm sure there are 15 bodies interested in playing football.What a disgrace.

Well they may have to play more football soon

http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=2596&ArticleID=3021941

blackbelt

At last.Now they can't get funds just to over-fund their hurling panel and not compete at football.Look at Cork,Galway and Wexford.Funds equally distributed or fairly distributed.Then you look at Waterford and Tipp and they field both teams and fund them even if their football teams aren't up to scratch.

Now Kilkenny have no excuse.Now we can have 2 preliminary rounds in the Leinster Championship.KK v Carlow would be interesting.

Pride Fighter

blackbelt wrote:

On a side note and I'm not trying to go off topic but I feel it relevent to criticise the KK County Board.If KK only spend their funds on hurling,its obviously going to give them an unfair advantage.They should be fielding a football team as well.I'm sure there are 15 bodies interested in playing football.What a disgrace.

I agree. Cork have won more hurling AI's than KK and they field a competitive football team every year. They over fund hurling and they are still only second best in terms of AI's won. Kerry has tried to develop hurling there and good luck to them, Kerry have one AI hurling title!! KK also have 3 leinster football titles so its not as if they have never played it before.

blackbelt

Pride,check out the post for soccer v gaa.

I think the KKCB should have been fined and money given to New York and London or teams travelling there for travelling expenses etc

Otherwise we could have had London and NY play against each other for a right to play in the Leinster Championship in place of KK.