Are DCU degrees too easy?

H2G2

From This mornings Irish Times Number of firsts at DCU doubles in less than decade
Students in DCU and UCC are more likely to secure a coveted first class honours degree than their counterparts in Trinity, UCD and the University of Limerick (UL), new figures show. The Higher Education Authority (HEA) figures also show a dramatic increase in the overall number of firsts, a trend which may raise fresh concerns about "dumbing down" across the university sector.
At DCU, 26 per cent of degree students secured a first in 2005, more than double the percentage in 1998. At UCC, 20 per cent attained a first. The percentage of students gaining a first has risen significantly at NUI Galway and Maynooth (up 7 per cent) and Trinity (up 5 per cent) in the past year.

So what do people think? Is DCU “dumbing down" is programmes? Are we too easy?

kitten_k

H2G2 wrote:

So what do people think? Is DCU “dumbing down" is programmes? Are we too easy?

Speaking as someone who has a degree from DCU, no I don't think they are too easy. I worked very hard to get my degree. I think the reason people gets firsts in DCU is the amount of work that they put in. DCU is very acedemic based whereas some other colleges are more social based.

Micamaca

I'm a mature student in DCU for last two years getting my first degree (hopefully!). I have not found it easy at all. First year was tough enough but the second year was tough, tough, tough all year. DCU really is no place for people who don't want to work. You HAVE to work. It's not just my degree, people in other degrees seem to have a lot on...and I'm in college with people ten years younger than me and they don't do a lot of socialising which surprises me in one way, but they too know, they can't afford to slack off.

I would strongly object to the notion that the degrees are awarded too easily! ;p

kitten_k

I totally agree with you Micamaca. I started there when I was 18 and didn't socialise much as there was too much work to be done.

PeakOutput

As far as I know trinity and ucd decide at the start of the year how many students in each course will get a first and they adjust the marks at the end so that only that number get firsts. for example if 10 people get an average of above 70% but they decide 8 will get firsts they will adjust all the marks down by the same amount until only 8 are above the 70% mark. as far as i know dcu does not do this which means if you do the work you will get the mark in dcu and not have to worry about other people. however it does devalue the degree slightly rightly or wrongly.

Micamaca

But that sounds awful...if I've done the work but I happen to be the 10th person to get over 70%, I don't get the result I want??? I would not be impressed with that...would you?

If I get over 70%, then I want my final result to show that.

Lucas10101

You sure about that PeakOutput, Is there a document on this somewhere?

Lucas

PeakOutput

Micamaca wrote:

But that sounds awful...if I've done the work but I happen to be the 10th person to get over 70%, I don't get the result I want??? I would not be impressed with that...would you?

If I get over 70%, then I want my final result to show that.

i agree with you in general but iv also seen the advantages that people who do get over the mark and given a first receive from putting the huge amount of work in.

for example scholarships / head hunted / entry into very prestigous international colleges and to be honest it has inspired me to work my bollox off and get reap these rewards myself.

however having said all that if im "9th on the list" im sure ill be well pissed.

PeakOutput

Lucas10101 wrote:

You sure about that PeakOutput, Is there a document on this somewhere?

Lucas

I would say I am 100% positive it happens in ucd as my mate just got a first in economics and the class was specifically told at the start of the year only 6(maybe8) of them would get firsts. i have been told that this happens in trinity as well but not by anyone in trinity and again iv been told it does not happen in dcu.

so the short answer is i cant point you to anywhere its written down and i think its decided by each course director/ head of faculty

Micamaca

[QUOTE=PeakOutputhowever having said all that if im "9th on the list" im sure ill be well pissed.[/QUOTE]


Why wouldn't you be... that sounds too amazing to be true. If you've put in loads of work, then just because someone happens to get a slightly better mark than you, they will get all the advantages of a first class honours degree and through no fault of your own, you won't.

It sounds mad so it must be true

cocoa

The amount of firsts has gone up, therefore they are not marking to a curve... simple.

oh and DCU may be giving out the most firsts, but UCD give out the most 1.1 and 2.1 degrees... (over 70%) so I'd say they dumb it down more than DCU.

gizmo

University College Dublin does not return a full set of results to the HEA, meaning about 40 per cent of its students, mainly arts graduates, are not included in the figures.

Now I'm not going to go into the Arts stereotype but I have a feeling this lack of returns would distort the figures somewhat.

As for DCU degrees, do I think they're easy? Good god no. Speaking from a CA's point of view 2nd and 4th year were really challenging. The number of projects alone which were assigned to us come Week 6 of each semester meant we were always working towards a deadline. You also had the tougher modules such as Probability, Languages & Computability and Algorithms & Complexity during the course which were all noticable stumbling points for many students. Then of course you have the 4th year project which is done in tandem with the lectures and other projects during the year which again meant we were always kept busy.

One can also not ignore the fact that DCU tends to attract a slightly different kind of student. Now this may be rather subjective but from my experience I have met very few, if any, people who come to DCU for "the craic". They all seem to come here because the best course in the area they want to do is found in DCU and as such they will work hard for it.

I would also be interested in seeing the dropout figures across the different universities. One cannot ignore the fact that if the weaker students are weeded out in the early years then the final grades of those who are left will be higher than in colleges who give their students an easier time initially.

PeakOutput

PeakOutput wrote:

I would say I am 100% positive it happens in ucd as my mate just got a first in economics and the class was specifically told at the start of the year only 6(maybe8) of them would get firsts. i have been told that this happens in trinity as well but not by anyone in trinity and again iv been told it does not happen in dcu.

so the short answer is i cant point you to anywhere its written down and i think its decided by each course director/ head of faculty

Any lecturers I've ever talked to were always of the opinion that they wished for a student to do as well as possible in any exam, but the idea of a department giving too many firsts is talked about from time to time. For the more mathematical courses, and indeed for larger courses there are no such limits but it naturally comes about. I could see smaller departments/courses worried that a large amount of firsts would throw the average all over the place. But there will be nothing written down since the data protection act came into force

Plus, if the lecturer was that stupid in UCD to mention to the class how only 6 of you will get firsts regardless of whether 7 deserve it or not, I'd be surprised if the student wouldn't appeal on the grounds of bias shown on behalf of the examiner (which is a grounds for appeal for examination results, at least in Trinity).

I have theories about marks being adjusted by the courts of examiners in Trinity, indeed for my own results last year, but I always found that if an adjustment is made it's going to be pushed up instead of moved down. Again, for the larger courses.

PeakOutput

ye sorry im talking about exams were you are giving an opinion or view on something not maths based were you have either done it right or you havnt

household_goods

I think the discrepancy between the number of firsts awarded at DCU and at other colleges can be accounted for by the fact that DCU has no Arts faculty. A professor who is marking a literature paper, for example, has a greater degree of freedom in assigning a mark that they deem appropriate than a professor marking an engineering or accounting paper, which are generally more black and white.

Let's say a teacher is getting complaints that their particular course is too easy. If it's a technical course they'd have to revamp the whole course, or at the very least furnish it with some new material. An arts teacher put in a similar position could simply leave the course unchanged, ask the same questions, and just judge the submitted papers more harshly.

MonaghanPenguin

gizmo wrote:

I would also be interested in seeing the dropout figures across the different universities. One cannot ignore the fact that if the weaker students are weeded out in the early years then the final grades of those who are left will be higher than in colleges who give their students an easier time initially.

Actually the DCU drop-out rates are pretty strange, they're up there at the highest in the country, but there's something funny about them, not sure entirely but something about transfering courses I think, you have to deregister from your course and this deregister is counted as a drop out where as you've simply gone to a different course. I'm not sure I've explain that as well as it could be.
DCU have higher firsts because it's known as a college where you have to put the effort in, therefore more people do put the effort it. That was the consensus at work today anyways

MonaghanPenguin

household_goods wrote:

I think the discrepancy between the number of firsts awarded at DCU and at other colleges can be accounted for by the fact that DCU has no Arts faculty. A professor who is marking a literature paper, for example, has a greater degree of freedom in assigning a mark that they deem appropriate than a professor marking an engineering or accounting paper, which are generally more black and white.

Let's say a teacher is getting complaints that their particular course is too easy. If it's a technical course they'd have to revamp the whole course, or at the very least furnish it with some new material. An arts teacher put in a similar position could simply leave the course unchanged, ask the same questions, and just judge the submitted papers more harshly.

Humanities isn't an Arts faculty?

m1ke

Maybe 25% of all students deserve a first, but it seriously devalues it for those who recieve it. Perhaps they should switch to a scale that they will actually use that shows some real variation - like GPA.

cocoa

Maybe 25% of all students deserve a first, but it seriously devalues it for those who recieve it. Perhaps they should switch to a scale that they will actually use that shows some real variation - like GPA.

umm, explain? All the phrase GPA means is that students are given marks in numbers or points and you get an average over semester etc... So it's technically in use already... Are you actually refering specifically to the system in place in UCD? Because I really don't see the benefit in marking out of 4.2 ...

sunnyjim

Will we get an official response to this thread from the new DCUSU Exec?

rugbug86

sunnyjim wrote:

Will we get an official response to this thread from the new DCUSU Exec?

Doubtful - we haven't even had a proper introduction to them

blucey

PeakOutput wrote:

As far as I know trinity and ucd decide at the start of the year how many students in each course will get a first and they adjust the marks at the end so that only that number get firsts.

Totally wrong, for TCD anyhow. That aint how its done. 1000% not.

Fiona_June

Its probably a combination of factors...I did my undergrad in TCD and I am doing a postgrad in DCU. Overall I found DCU lecturers more proactive in providing students with feedback...I dont think I ever got personalised feedback from a lecturer in trinity. Also I liked the continuous assessment approach..so much nicer then the big exams at the end of the year ( and on the plus side it forces you to work). From my experience in Trinity I found it far too easy to get wrap up in socs and SU stuff and hence neglect your degree.

DemocAnarchis

Going into third year of Chemical & Pharmaceutical this year, and the first two years were certainly no walk in the park. Long, long hours, a serious amount of work put into lab reports, and a shed load of theory. Add the pressure of little or no CA, and you really do have to work. Was lucky enough to get a 2.1 this year, but only 6 in my entire year got above a pass! And they arent a thick bunch, so no, I dont think DCU degrees are too easy at all. There is no stigma attached to working hard, people recognise that there is work to be done and generally do it. As someone said previously, not many students I know there went for "the craic", but with a focus on coming out with a good degree.

gizmo

What I'm actually interested in is hearing some comments from H2G2 on his own course. Do you think it's taught at a good level, are there elements you think could be harder and when marking do you consider the problem of too many of your students achieving 1.1s?

Note: Be as diplomatical in your reply as you want, I understand its a rather loaded question but it would offer us some good insight into the issue from a lecturers point of view.

H2G2

gizmo wrote:

What I'm actually interested in is hearing some comments from H2G2 on his own course. Do you think it's taught at a good level, are there elements you think could be harder and when marking do you consider the problem of too many of your students achieving 1.1s?
Note: Be as diplomatical in your reply as you want, I understand its a rather loaded question but it would offer us some good insight into the issue from a lecturers point of view.

As Gizmo says, its definitely a loaded question, but a good one… I started this thread after reading the Irish Times article and discussing with several staff and getting mixed reactions to it, so I was curious about general DCU community feeling about the issue.

My opinion is split. I do think we give a lot of 1.1’s compared to my experience in other (particularly non-Irish) Universities. But generally DCU students do work very hard for them and deserve to feel proud of their efforts. However (based on experience) I do feel that some programmes – or more precisely, aspects (modules, part of modules, etc.) of some programmes – are ‘comparatively’ less difficult (easy) to get a 1.1 in. This has the possibility to lead to ‘grade inflation’ which I have seen happen in some modules and programmes over the years (not just in my School/Faculty).

As for Gizmo’s direct questions about my courses: Well that’s a mixed answer to, as I teach to several programmes. With the possible exception of final year (where my students appear much more committed / dedicated than earlier years), I think the courses are taught at a ‘good level’, but yes there are elements I think should (rather than could) be harder (for ‘harder’ read more in-depth ergo more difficult / challenging) . As for the question of ‘too many of your students achieving 1.1s?’ – my answer is no. If anything I would like to have seen more, particularly at non-final year level.

As an aside: I was appointed as the external examiner for a taught MSc in Computing programme in another university a few years ago. During the first examination board I remarked on the fact that all except 1 (of the c. 18) students got a first. I scrutinised the marking schemes, scripts, etc. carefully and concluded that an almost 100% first rate was perfectly appropriate given a small group of highly motivated, hard working (elite) students in an advanced degree programme. The lesson… a single statistic alone never tells a full story.

So as a lecturer, my overall opinion is: On balance of all programmes, at all levels across the entire university, DCU first rate is not a problem. There are many factors contributing to it [the 1.1 rate], of which ‘easiness’ maybe one (in some cases), but its way down the list.

penexpers

Yes DCU degrees are too easy

In 4th year I didn't hand one single project in on time (including my final project, it was about a week late), my final project didn't even work, and I was magically bumped up from 32 to 40 in one of my exams. In the end I came out with a 2.2, which I feel like I didn't deserve based on the amount of work I had put in.

Also, I heard a story about someone who scraped a 1.1 after they got 100% in one of their final exams.

fobster

After just finishing DCU with a 1.1 from the business school, I have to say it really depends on the particular lecturer's approach, for example one exam was far too easy, it was simply questions taken from lecture notes with a few details changed here and there and we were pretty much told this. Completely pointless.

While another exam was quite tough, in it there were one or two issues that were not specifically covered in class, a cause for much anger among some people, but required you to look at the facts presented to you and give your opinion on how the issues should be treated and as long as your reasoning was sound you got the marks. You had to think!!

Then there were other subjects where it seemed everybody was given in around the same mark, between 64 and 67.

In all there was about 9 1.1s in my course out of roughly 100 students. The majority of people got 2.2s.

But I'm not really comparing like with like because in the final year of the course I did you have four core subjects accounting for half of your final grade while your specialism accounts for the remaining half.

The vast majority of people opted for one particular stream while only a handful opted for other streams, myself included. So a more worthwhile comparison would be seeing the level of 1.1s achieved in the particular specialisms rather than the actual courses as there were students from several different courses in the same specialisms.

ronbyrne2005

Depends on degree , i know people who did engineering and Computer Applications courses in DCU and much higher percentage of them got firsts than on my course or any in business schoool.in mechatonic engineering that graduated in 2001 a third of students in small class of 27 got firsts. I was in business school and even though their was very similar people doing business degrees the amount of firsts and 2.1's was far far higher than my course accountancy and finance as our degree entitles you to significant professional exemptions and the lecturers want to maintain the integrity of the degree high to keep the professional exemptions. Everyone i knew opting for half specialisied(HR,Marketing,Finance) business degree got 2.1's while vast majority on my course got 2.2's. All 1.1 degrees from DCU are not equal and relevant employers know this.

PeakOutput

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Depends on degree , i know people who did engineering and Computer Applications courses in DCU and much higher percentage of them got firsts than on my course or any in business schoool.in mechatonic engineering that graduated in 2001 a third of students in small class of 27 got firsts. I was in business school and even though their was very similar people doing business degrees the amount of firsts and 2.1's was far far higher than my course accountancy and finance as our degree entitles you to significant professional exemptions and the lecturers want to maintain the integrity of the degree high to keep the professional exemptions. Everyone i knew opting for half specialisied(HR,Marketing,Finance) business degree got 2.1's while vast majority on my course got 2.2's. All 1.1 degrees from DCU are not equal and relevant employers know this.

i dont know about engineering but computer applications has a massive drop out rate as it is so difficult so the people that are left are the cream of the crop as they say so they probably deserve firsts tbh. also it is considered the best computer course in ireland by many in the industry so the percentages can also be misleading in individual cases i think