Why didn't Franco help the Nazis?

Snickers Man

Here's one that puzzles me.

If Franco was such a Fascist, and if he really wanted to pay back the Italians and Germans for supporting him materially and physically in the Spanish Civil War, why didn't he help them in WWII?

Especially during the Desert campaign. He could have cut off the British forces in the Mediterranean simply by capturing Gibraltar. That would have starved the Empire forces in Egypt of replacements, materiel and supplies and would have handed victory to the Axis on a plate.

During the Desert Campaign there were two vitally important pieces of real estate in the MEditerranean: Malta and Gibraltar. A glance at a map shows why. Gibraltar guards the western approach to the med. There is no other way in other than to go all the way round the Cape of Good Hope and up the other side to Egypt.

Malta was right in the middle of italian supply routes between Sicily and Tunisia. In 1941 it became "the most bombed place on earth" as the Axis tried to subdue it. Gibraltar escaped because it was out of range of German/Italian bombers.

But what was stopping Franco from taking it back? He had a huge battle hardened army, fresh from its victory in the civil war. Britain was on its uppers. It's army had been destroyed in France in 1940 and it was heavily reliant on Empire troops (mainly from ANZAC and South Africa) to fight the Italians in the desert.

Taking Gibraltar and allowing the Germans/Italians to base themselves there would have stymied any British attempts to reinforce their armies in Egypt.

What if the British had been kicked out of North Africa before Barbarossa in mid 1941? How would they have fought on? There would have been nowhere to engage the Axis forces. That was the only theatre in which the British army was active at that time. They were in no fit state to invade France. They would have been unable to land in Crete to oppose the Italian invasion of Greece. They would probably have sued for peace and Hitler would have won.

Does Franco get no credit for this, Fascist pig and all that he was?

Fratton Fred

I've just finished reading a novel, Winter in Madrid by CJ Sansom and it touches on this very subject.

What is suggested in the novel is two things, firstly Franco was under thret of Blockade by the Royal Navy if he entered the war, effectively the British were threatening to starve Spain unless they remained out of it by cutting off their ports in the Med and Atlantic. There is also a suggestion that the British used the many friends they had in Spain to influence Franco and in return these "Friends" received certain "Financial" rewards;)

Franco did pass information onto the Germans, there is the famous mis-information incident where Britain put a dead officer in the sea off Spain with a briefcase full of false orders and plans on the assumption it would find it's wat back to Berlin, which of course it did.

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote:

I've just finished reading a novel, Winter in Madrid by CJ Sansom and it touches on this very subject.

What is suggested in the novel is two things, firstly Franco was under thret of Blockade by the Royal Navy if he entered the war, effectively the British were threatening to starve Spain unless they remained out of it by cutting off their ports in the Med and Atlantic. There is also a suggestion that the British used the many friends they had in Spain to influence Franco and in return these "Friends" received certain "Financial" rewards;)

I certainly believe the second of those. Influence takes many forms. But the first sounds like a bluff that could have been called. How would Britain gets its navy into the Mediterannean in the first place? Its main entrance would have been blocked if the Fascists had taken Gibraltar.

OK, so Britain had a big fleet there already but how was that to be resupplied and refitted if Gibraltar was lost?

And even given that the Navy was (in 1940/41 particularly) the strongest part of Britain's armed services, would they really have had the resources to block Spain's ports and continue guarding convoys in the Atlantic?

I think Franco just didn't want to get involved in the war and stayed out of it. And Britain should be grateful that he did. But I'm amazed the Italians and Germans didn't put him under more pressure to take Gibraltar. It would have been suchy an obvious thing to do.

Fratton Fred wrote:

Franco did pass information onto the Germans, there is the famous mis-information incident where Britain put a dead officer in the sea off Spain with a briefcase full of false orders and plans on the assumption it would find it's wat back to Berlin, which of course it did.

Ah yes. Operation mincemeat, as dramatised in the film "The man who never was". Just goes to show you should never trust a Brit. Even a dead one.

Capt'n Midnight

What would have Spain to gain by doing this. Gibralter is just one mountain. Only really a thorn in your side if you are in a war, not worth starting a war over.

As for North Africa the Rif wars were only a generation ago.

Snickers Man

Well if she really wanted Gibraltar back, then was the time to grab it.

Also, you might think that the Germans and Italians felt that Franco owed them something after they sent so many troops, planes and equipment to help him. And remember that things were looking pretty bleak for Britain then. France knocked out of the war, Britain under siege, no allies outside of her own empire. The Italians engaged in some blatant carpet bagging when they thought Hitler was going to win, why on earth didn't Franco do the same?

TerrorFirmer

There were talks, Franco wanted further economic and military aid, as well as recognition for claims to a lot of territory, an agreement was just never reached. It's not like Franco flat out refused to join the Axis. It's quite possible that like in Italy, there would have been no popular support for war, not to mention the fact that the Spanish army was extremely weak at the time and was afraid of British retaliation, no matter how much on the loosing side they appeared to be.

quirk.

I'm just finished reading Antony Beevor's book on the Spanish Civil War and the last chapter deals with this issue. It is basically as Havok says in that they could not reach an agreement because of the demands that Franco was making but Franco himself was really eager to join the Axis and it was Hitler that kept putting him off.

Spanish soilders did however take part in operation Barbarossa as part of the Blue Division

dermo88

I think it was more to do with Spains condition after a 3 year long Civil War. Franco was new to power, and needed to consolidate his hold on Spanish society. While he had won the civil war, he was more concerned with the need to rebuild Spain after one vicious brutal conflict, and had no desire to enter another conflict, where he stood to gain little. Spain was in no fit state economically, financially, or socially to enter WW2 on a full time basis.

He was also a good deal more sensible than Hitler in that regard, and rightly decided to stay out. He offered covert assistance, and paid the price for a while afterwards until the late 1940's.

The same could be said for Antonio Salazar of Portugal, who was also fascist, but not to the same extreme as Franco.

The results were that Franco became the last fascist, finally dying in 1975.

donaghs

The head of German intelligence, Admiral Canaris, is also supposed to have advised his old pal Franco to stay out of the war. Canaris was secretly anti-Nazi and believed Hitler was nuts.

ScottishDanny

I just got back from Spain a couple of days ago.
Franco agreed in principle to help the axis but would never give a date. (Mussolini had delayed getting involved in WW2 until he saw how successful the Germans were up to the end of 1940). The US dragged their heels until late in the war so theres no reason why Franco wouldn't either. Plus as an ultra-nationalist dictator he was out for himself and his vision of Spain first.
I think Spain was neutral in the way Ireland was neutral. Staying out of it but helping who they thought was the lesser of two evils.

Theres no honour amongst fascists eh?

Mick86

I remember several years ago seeing a photo of a Spanish "volunteer" fighting with the Germans in Russia.

TerrorFirmer

That was part of the Blue Division that fought on the eastern front. At first they were actually mainly volunteers although not all of them sent were. When they were recalled in 1943 when those that remained were of course dedicated volunteers fighting in German uniform and absorbed into German units rather then forming an entirely distinctive Spanish group. They received quite a high amount of decorations too.

Mick86

So Franco did help the Nazis then. For a while anyway.

Capt'n Midnight

Mick86 wrote:

So Franco did help the Nazis then. For a while anyway.

During the Spanish civil war there were Irish volunteers fighting on both sides. And they weren't threatened with loss of citizenship if they didn't come home when asked.

Snickers Man

Mick86 wrote:

So Franco did help the Nazis then. For a while anyway.

Only a little. If he had really wanted to help them put the allies away in North Africa, all he had to do was close off the Mediterannean at Gibraltar.

It has always amazed me that he did not do this, nor does he seem to have been pressurised by the Axis to do so.

Did they think that N Africa was just a side show, unworthy of maximum effort?

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote:

Only a little. If he had really wanted to help them put the allies away in North Africa, all he had to do was close off the Mediterannean at Gibraltar.

It has always amazed me that he did not do this, nor does he seem to have been pressurised by the Axis to do so.

Did they think that N Africa was just a side show, unworthy of maximum effort?

or maybe the bluff worked??

Capt'n Midnight

Snickers Man wrote:

Only a little. If he had really wanted to help them put the allies away in North Africa, all he had to do was close off the Mediterannean at Gibraltar.

It has always amazed me that he did not do this, nor does he seem to have been pressurised by the Axis to do so.

Did they think that N Africa was just a side show, unworthy of maximum effort?

The Brits had a naval base with an air port at Gibralter and they didn't manage to block the med. German subs came and went.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_in_World_War_II

Spain relied upon United States oil supplies and the US had agreed to listen to British recommendations on this. As a result, the Spanish were told that supplies would be restricted, albeit with a ten week reserve. Any Spanish intervention would rely, inevitably, upon German ability to supply oil. Some of Germany's own activity relied upon captured French oil reserves, so Spanish needs were unhelpful.

Fratton Fred

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

The Brits had a naval base with an air port at Gibralter and they didn't manage to block the med. German subs came and went.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_in_World_War_II

Were the subs not based in French and Italian ports?

I guess with oil supplies being used up at a tremendous rate of knots in Africa and the eastern front, the last thing the Germans wanted to do was give any to the Spanish. Franco was also after food and guns from Germany but these were not forth coming either.

I read somewhere that although the Catholic Church in Spain were big fans of Franco, they were very anti Hitler and saw him as a pagan, so I believe they put a lot of prssure on Franco to stay our of the war. A lot of the Spanish nobility were very pro British and a lot of them were educated in the UK so they were against entering the war, where as the Falange on the other hand were chomping at the bit to get involved and kill a few communists. I guess members of the Falange party were the ones who ended up on the eastern front.

TerrorFirmer

Snickers Man wrote:

Did they think that N Africa was just a side show, unworthy of maximum effort?

I think thats an accepted fact already given the meagre reinforcement and supplies the afrika corps received even at the height of their successes

kowloon

Franco couldnt enter the war, Spain had just been through a long bloody war and was in no position to get into another one.
Franco was a shrewd negotiator and asked to join the axis but in return for material aid that he knew (from anti-nazi insiders in the Germany) couldnt be provided.
Worked well, Spain didnt enter the war and saved face.
At the same time he let jews flow over the border and into Spain to keep things good with the Allies and let spanish nationalists, the ones making noise for not joining the axis, volunteer (or not?) for war service.

I thought they were all volunteers, tell more Havok.

Admiral Canaris was friends with one of Francos advisors i believe.

Jackie laughlin

Very few U-boats passed through the straits of Gibralter.

Snickers Man

HavoK wrote:

I think thats an accepted fact already given the meagre reinforcement and supplies the afrika corps received even at the height of their successes

Ooohh!!! Fratton Fred won't like that.

You are of course right. At the "height of the Afrika Korps success" the Germans were too busy invading Russia. Always their priority. The desert war was left largely to the Italians. Whose war it was anyway.

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote:

Ooohh!!! Fratton Fred won't like that.

You are of course right. At the "height of the Afrika Korps success" the Germans were too busy invading Russia. Always their priority. The desert war was left largely to the Italians. Whose war it was anyway.

Wer the Brits in Africa, I thought they only contributed a base from which the Americans won the war?;)

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote:

Wer the Brits in Africa, I thought they only contributed a base from which the Americans won the war?;)

Now now, FF. You're not paying attention. America's claims to have "won the war" are as deluded as the British.

It was the Soviets who won the war, or at least, who bore the vast majority of the burden of fighting the Nazis. Even after D-Day, the combined forces of the British, US, Canadians plus all insurgency movements in the occupied territories of western Europe only engaged a small minority of German forces, most of whom were fighting the armies of the country the Nazis most hated and feared: the Russkis.

America and Britain were much better at winning the peace, but that's a different story.

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote:

Now now, FF. You're not paying attention. America's claims to have "won the war" are as deluded as the British.

It was the Soviets who won the war, or at least, who bore the vast majority of the burden of fighting the Nazis. Even after D-Day, the combined forces of the British, US, Canadians plus all insurgency movements in the occupied territories of western Europe only engaged a small minority of German forces, most of whom were fighting the armies of the country the Nazis most hated and feared: the Russkis.

America and Britain were much better at winning the peace, but that's a different story.

sorry, I forgot.

So how did the Russians keep Spain out of the war again

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote:

sorry, I forgot.

So how did the Russians keep Spain out of the war again

They didn't give a rat's ass. Why would they? Look at a map.

Fratton Fred

Snickers Man wrote:

They didn't give a rat's ass. Why would they? Look at a map.

ven though they got beate in the spanish civil war?

Capt'n Midnight

Fratton Fred wrote:

sorry, I forgot.

So how did the Russians keep Spain out of the war again

It's one thing fighting against the Republicans who had some russian equipment and pilots, it's another to take on the whole country.

Or maybe Franco found a crate marked "T34" that hadn't been unpacked yet


If the Brits and French had intervened in the civil war to counter Franco , would that have prevented word war II ?

Fratton Fred

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

If the Brits and French had intervened in the civil war to counter Franco , would that have prevented word war II ?

good point. It may have sparked it off early or it may have used so much of Hiter's resources he didn't have the means to eventually invade Poland.

(Insignificant though Britains own army was;) )

Capt'n Midnight

Don't forget how poor the German army was, much of their equipment was from conqured contries. You could argue that the Czechs could have held out for quite a while at their borders if they knew help was coming. The Poles were hampered by the "no retreat" orders and so could not use rivers as defensive lines , that and being attacked from three sides at once and having the Russians deliver the coup de grace. Even with the arms from those countries horses were still a major part.

But it's more the will to act together that would have done it. Had the French invaded in '39 would the Russians have stopped half way across Poland or continued a little further East ? Had the Germans known that the French WOULD attack would they have tried at all.

TerrorFirmer

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Don't forget how poor the German army was, much of their equipment was from conqured contries. You could argue that the Czechs could have held out for quite a while at their borders if they knew help was coming. The Poles were hampered by the "no retreat" orders and so could not use rivers as defensive lines , that and being attacked from three sides at once and having the Russians deliver the coup de grace. Even with the arms from those countries horses were still a major part.

But it's more the will to act together that would have done it. Had the French invaded in '39 would the Russians have stopped half way across Poland or continued a little further East ? Had the Germans known that the French WOULD attack would they have tried at all.

How poor the German army was? The Germans did use Czech tanks and put them to good use in France but only integrated them and used them in their mobile warfare doctrine. In fact it was these sort of light tanks that suffered considerably against the French Chars because they didn't have the firepower to take them on (not just Czech tanks but also their own light panzer I and II), it was also considerable numbers of these tanks that were fast enough under Rommel to cut through northen France but at the same time fell victim to the counter attack at Arras that looked like disaster at first. Also, it was these tanks that were proved useless in Russia when used with both the Germans and Hungarians.

By 1940 the German's own heavy tanks were the best in Europe and hence why in both France and Africa the allies could do literally nothing initially to stop Axis advances, even the latter with inferior numbers. Their armor and Anti tank didn't have the firepower. Because of the Versaille Treaty forbidding any armoured force and the lack of focus on obtaining one until 1933 the Wehrmacht could build a totally new and modern force, whereas other European countries were using older stock and didn't feel the need in terms of tactics or cost to upgrade them.

As for France and Russia invading I don't think that would have worked too well either. As in Germany, in Russia the development of new weapons and tactics was a result of research gained from direct fighting and observing enemy equipment and tactics in action. In 1939 the Red Army was a shambles and probably would have collapsed if it had taken unprovoked offensives against Germany. Same with France, who still held onto the static strategy of WWI. It wasn't just German armour that won the battle, it was their strategy. While the French committed their tanks piecemeal and on a broad front like in WWI the Germans threw it all into vunerable sectors. That's why France, who had a bigger army then Germany in terms of tanks, crumbled completely....pretty much the same as Germany did in 1918. They had no counter to these new tactics and would have probably failed to make any successful attacks following their own.

It's an interesting question regarding what Germany would have done if France was expressed it would attack in the event of a Polish Invasion. Probably have postponed the invasion indefinitely, even though they destroyed France in the actual event of war, surprisingly the majority of Army staff believed attacking France was a blunder, and did not believe they could win. Again, at the time, France had a bigger army then Germany did and with it was the promise of British support.