1/2 NLHE, 6 handed

twerg_85

Very little info - table has been relativley tight (well not very loose) with plenty of hands taken down pf by position raises.

P1 is fond of continuation bet, P2 has call/folded flop a few times to reraises.

Player 1 (MP) As, Qh, €140
Player 2 (CO) 9h, 9s, €200

P1 raises to 7, P2 calls, all else fold.

Flop (17) 2s 5h 8s

P1 bets 12, P2 raises to 32.

P1 reraise all in, P2 calls.

Comments on play of both please, especially the push and call at end.

Hectorjelly

Player 1 should buy in full

DeadParrot

That is shocking from P1 terrible call.
The push wasnt exactly gold standard either

Hectorjelly

DeadParrot wrote:

That is shocking from P1 terrible call.
The push wasnt exactly gold standard either

player 1 pushed not called. I dont see how you can call the call terrible seeing as the pusher had exactly the hand he was representing, ie nothing

DeadParrot

I should really read these things properly...

The_Chopper

Player 1 should give up after the raise on the flop end of

Hectorjelly

The_Chopper wrote:

Player 1 should give up after the raise on the flop end of

no thats silly

You cant critise either player here, both of their plays are fine in a vacuum. Player A raises with AQ, bets a ragged flop and gets raised. He correctly reads that his opponent puts him on nothing, and goes all in. This has a duel purpose, he wins the hand if his opponent is bluffing (or semi-bluffing with a hand with very little showdown value like A2o) and he may also get the guy to fold a real hand like top pair or a small overpair. As long as he only does it occasionally (and chooses his targets) this play is fine (or similar), and is even required to be a good player (unless you are playing morons). If your range when you act like this is always big overpairs or sets then you are really easy to play against.

The guy calling may of had some reason to suspect that his 99 was good. Maybe a timing tell or the guy may play overpairs differently. Anyway without any context you cant judge either players actions. Allthough it would be better if the AQ guy had more money.

It could also be the case that both played the hand terribly considering the opponent and their respective ranges, but you cant tell that from the post.

The_Chopper

Hectorjelly wrote:

no thats silly

You cant critise either player here, both of their plays are fine in a vacuum. Player A raises with AQ, bets a ragged flop and gets raised. He correctly reads that his opponent puts him on nothing, and goes all in. This has a duel purpose, he wins the hand if his opponent is bluffing (or semi-bluffing with a hand with very little showdown value like A2o) and he may also get the guy to fold a real hand like top pair or a small overpair. As long as he only does it occasionally (and chooses his targets) this play is fine (or similar), and is even required to be a good player (unless you are playing morons). If your range when you act like this is always big overpairs or sets then you are really easy to play against.

The guy calling may of had some reason to suspect that his 99 was good. Maybe a timing tell or the guy may play overpairs differently. Anyway without any context you cant judge either players actions. Allthough it would be better if the AQ guy had more money.

It could also be the case that both played the hand terribly considering the opponent and their respective ranges, but you cant tell that from the post.

My feeling on the hand is this - AQ raised and got called. Flop comes rags and he continue bets - he gets raised. If I have AQ here against your standard internet player I just fold. In this situation the guy could have anything IMO from 34 or a flush draw to top pair or a set. Our hand doesn't fair well against any of these hands. The only thing we want to be against is a guy playing air against us. I've come to realise that the standard internet player of average standard just won't fold A8, 99, or any draw here and until they prove otherwise that's how i class them.

Additionally I would prefer AQ to check raise here which IMO would really represent an overpair. Lets look at this from our point of view. A guy makes it 7 and we call with 99. The guy comes out swinging with 12 on a flop that he's meant to like with an overpair - are we going to believe him? Now what if this guy check raises us here on a flop an overpair is meant to like. To me that seems like a much stronger and more believable line. Buy hey I'm a cynic at a poker table and feel free to criticise my logic.

Macspower

The_Chopper wrote:

My feeling on the hand is this - AQ raised and got called. Flop comes rags and he continue bets - he gets raised. If I have AQ here against your standard internet player I just fold. In this situation the guy could have anything IMO from 34 or a flush draw to top pair or a set. Our hand doesn't fair well against any of these hands. The only thing we want to be against is a guy playing air against us. I've come to realise that the standard internet player of average standard just won't fold A8, 99, or any draw here and until they prove otherwise that's how i class them.

Additionally I would prefer AQ to check raise here which IMO would really represent an overpair. Lets look at this from our point of view. A guy makes it 7 and we call with 99. The guy comes out swinging with 12 on a flop that he's meant to like with an overpair - are we going to believe him? Now what if this guy check raises us here on a flop an overpair is meant to like. To me that seems like a much stronger and more believable line. Buy hey I'm a cynic at a poker table and feel free to criticise my logic.

The above hands are very much read dependent....

I definately dont like the idea of CR with AQ here.... I often make a play something like that but normally if i'm deeper..

I raise with AQ flop rags... i c-bet and he min raises i raise about 3 times his bet and he folds.... only on certain villans though.... I find they opften have TP on the flop nd will fold when pushed....

Hectorjelly

its very rare for online players to check raise with overpairs

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont see how you can call the call terrible seeing as the pusher had exactly the hand he was representing, ie nothing

surely thats results orientated?

The_Chopper

Hectorjelly wrote:

its very rare for online players to check raise with overpairs

It's something I've started to see more and more off.

In my head it's one of the cheapest weapons in poker at the moment. Raising preflop and check raising the flop (3 bets).

I mean people check raise now with bottom pair against preflop raises and use the whole "I thought you had AK". People 3 bet top pair with no kicker and by the time you 4 bet you're practically allin.

I've only played this game for near 2 years now - but i use to respect a check raise. Bad players watch good players check raise with air than they started doing it. Then good players started 3 betting the check raise. Now the bad players are following suit. Poker is becoming an increasingly hard game in which to run a successful bluff preflop or on the flop. Captain Tom and I touched on this in another post. I hate to say it but it seems to work is the way the better americans are now playing.

The are raising up 2.5 times BB now, betting 2 BBs on flop and trying to keep the pot small until the river where they are walloping in a pot size bet. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I agree with the bet sizes but I do agree that people have to start learning to play through 4 streets to maximise their profits and edge. On a side - the number of bads beat should drastically be reduced for the better readers of the game out there if they can manage this. I also think that you can make a much more constant profit at the game while doing this and stop looking at the big picture of variance and it will even out. I've run an under straight flush into a higher straight flush twice but it hasn't happened me yet, has it?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

The problem with your thinking here chopper is that you say players a cr'ing a huge range of hands on the flop nowadays but you expect a player to bet/fold a whiffed AQ to a cr all the time. I think HJ's post was right on the money.

The_Chopper

cardshark202 wrote:

The problem with your thinking here chopper is that you say players a cr'ing a huge range of hands on the flop nowadays but you expect a player to bet/fold a whiffed AQ to a cr all the time. I think HJ's post was right on the money.

I don't think I've put this across the best way - let me try another approach - let's assume the same hand as above:

Player 1 (MP) As, Qh, €200
Player 2 (CO) 9h, 9s, €200

P1 raises to 7, P2 calls, all else fold.

Flop (17) 2s 5h 8s

P1 bets 12, P2 raises to 32.

P1 reraise calls

Turn Xx

P1 bets $50

P2 now what???? (lets assume a call)

River Xx

P1 all in for $101.

If you are P2 you might have called an all in on the flop but can you really call on the river now after P1 has shown so much strength through 4 streets? It would be madness IMO. Remember there is so such thing as pot odds on the river - if you're beat you're beat.

NOTE: I've made changes in red to make it 100BB - maybe you can't applymy theory to this hand in particular - but what do people think?

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

no thats silly

You cant critise either player here, both of their plays are fine in a vacuum. Player A raises with AQ, bets a ragged flop and gets raised. He correctly reads that his opponent puts him on nothing, and goes all in. This has a duel purpose, he wins the hand if his opponent is bluffing (or semi-bluffing with a hand with very little showdown value like A2o) and he may also get the guy to fold a real hand like top pair or a small overpair. As long as he only does it occasionally (and chooses his targets) this play is fine (or similar), and is even required to be a good player (unless you are playing morons). If your range when you act like this is always big overpairs or sets then you are really easy to play against.

The guy calling may of had some reason to suspect that his 99 was good. Maybe a timing tell or the guy may play overpairs differently. Anyway without any context you cant judge either players actions. Allthough it would be better if the AQ guy had more money.

It could also be the case that both played the hand terribly considering the opponent and their respective ranges, but you cant tell that from the post.

I think this is a really good post and should be cut and paste into half the HH threads that get posted here.

opr

The_Chopper wrote:

Remember there is so such thing as pot odds on the river - if you're beat you're beat.

This is not really true.

You still look at the fact that your getting 3/1 on the call which in turn means you only need to be good 1 out of 4 times to make it ok to call on the river in your example.

Ok

cardshark202

The_Chopper wrote:

I don't think I've put this across the best way - let me try another approach - let's assume the same hand as above:

Player 1 (MP) As, Qh, €200
Player 2 (CO) 9h, 9s, €200

P1 raises to 7, P2 calls, all else fold.

Flop (17) 2s 5h 8s

P1 bets 12, P2 raises to 32.

P1 reraise calls

Turn Xx

P1 bets $50

P2 now what???? (lets assume a call)

River Xx

P1 all in for $101.

If you are P2 you might have called an all in on the flop but can you really call on the river now after P1 has shown so much strength through 4 streets? It would be madness IMO. Remember there is so such thing as pot odds on the river - if you're beat you're beat.

NOTE: I've made changes in red to make it 100BB - maybe you can't applymy theory to this hand in particular - but what do people think?

Why the hell would you call the turn there with AQ? How about you float the flop he checks the turn you shove he folds. People will also fold 99 on the flop to a shove a lot. It depends on reads. And obv there are pots odds on the river. People have ranges of hands, not just one hand unless you are amazing. So its possible to be beaten by their range and you will still have to call a reasonable bet on the river.

opr

cardshark202 wrote:

Why the hell would you call the turn there with AQ? How about you float the flop he checks the turn you shove he folds.

Its the other way around the guy with the 99 is calling the turn. In the example he gives the guy with AQ floats the flop , leads the turn and then shoves the river.

Opr

fuzzbox

I dont think that the AQ player should bother trying this very often at 1/2. However, if player 2 is raising his CBs very often in this manner, then the play is fine.

The same could be said of the 99 guy.