Value? Hand in 1-2 live..... Advice please

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:09AM #1

Live 1-2, Naas, Table is the worst table I have ever played at. ATC is a reasonable range for at least 5 of the nine players.

I am on the button.

It is limped around to me, all but 3 players limp.

I look down at QcQd on the button.

I make it 15 to go.

BB calls. He has 50 left behind.
UTG+2 calls. He has 200 left behind.
MP calls. He has 250 left Behind

Pot €61:

Now for some of my reads.
BB: Spewy, not very good but one of the "cleverer" on the table. He knows when he is beat. He makes donk bets but rarely if ever makes a HUGE mistake.

UTG+2: Very Tight, Very weak Italian Old man, does not worry me.

MP: By far and away the worst player I have ever played with. He actually plays in the SE sometimes. Pat, some of you might know him. He is an ATM. I swear to god. its ridiculous.

So:

Pot: €61

Flop comes: 8s5s10c

BB leads out "all in" 48 euro.

Pat "the ATM" Scanlon calls.

Now here is my question.

The BB is all in. Whether I have him beat or not is irrelevant. I feel I do. In fact Im sure he is playing k10, j10, q10, a10 suited with spades or not. The fact is he has made a strong move for the pot. It may have been his only move but it is a PSB so I have to give him some credit. I can possibly put him on 67s, and worse case scenario a set although could be likely.

I am wondering if I should push over the top of the BB to protect my overpair and isolate or should I just call and let Pat bet on later streets which he will cards or not.

the pot is now 147.

I have 140 left.

Should I give up some equity now for the chance of a double through through Pat or isolate the BB???

This hand wrecked my head. Pat can have ATC

Captain Tom · 09-08-2007 12:13AM

easy shove. make it 25+ pf.

Ace2007 · 09-08-2007 12:16AM

Is the game NL or PL?

If "pat" could be playing ATC, he could easily have a flush draw, therefore you should shove it like Tom said, otherwise if a spade comes on the turn and "pat" pots it - wat u going to do?
By Reraisng on the flop, you are putting the pressure on him to make the decision, you don't want to be faced with calling an all in on the turn if the spade does hit...

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:19AM

It is NL,

Tom, I know the shove is easy to make here, But I know it will scare th fish "pat" off. If I call, he will shove or bet nearly any turn or river.

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:21AM

I suppose a simplified version of my question is:

Do I just call ( in position ) and give pat some rope to hang himself on so I can build a nice side pot or or do I Just do the standard and shove.

Ace2007 · 09-08-2007 12:24AM

you may scare him off as you say - but if he has A5, or any Ace and A comes on turn, like u said "he will shove or bet nearly any turn or river" and than wat?

I can understand why you don't want to raise, but its dangerous playin this way with someone who potenially can be holdin ATC

Ace2007 · 09-08-2007 12:25AM

also out of curiousty - how bad of a player is he - would he call ur reraise with say middle pair top kicker(MPTK - never seen it used-is it?)

Captain Tom · 09-08-2007 12:30AM

Theresalwaysone wrote:

Tom, I know the shove is easy to make here, But I know it will scare th fish "pat" off. If I call, he will shove or bet nearly any turn or river.

sorry maybe i shouldnt be so vague. shoving is much better here given the description of pat. if u shove flop he'll call you with 67/79/J9/flushdraws/gutshots and god knows what else. if you just call and he misses the turn it gives him a chance to check fold. if he has middle pair or whatever and an overcard falls he might fold then too.

just shove now. there will be ~290 in the pot and will be about 100 for him to call. he's basically never folding and you're killing his range.

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:30AM

He will call with mp no kicker.

Ace2007 · 09-08-2007 12:34AM

u might as well stick it in now - let him call with mp and suck out - u dont want to give him a cheap(free card if u just call) and let him hit.

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:35AM

Captain Tom wrote:

sorry maybe i shouldnt be so vague. shoving is much better here given the description of pat. if u shove flop he'll call you with 67/79/J9/flushdraws/gutshots and god knows what else. if you just call and he misses the turn it gives him a chance to check fold. if he has middle pair or whatever and an overcard falls he might fold then too.

just shove now. there will be ~290 in the pot and will be about 100 for him to call. he's never folding and you're killing his range.

Ok I know all the reasons for shoving. But consider it this way. If I re raise, he will fold. I.e. If I come over the top, he will fold. He will not check the turn, it is pure gamble and aggression from.

Captain Tom · 09-08-2007 12:39AM

Theresalwaysone wrote:

If I re raise, he will fold

i dont understand this. you said he's an atm and will call with middle pair no kicker. given description he's also never folding any reasonable draw. how do you know he will fold if you reraise? this is surely results based thinking.

Ace2007 · 09-08-2007 12:43AM

he's calling 48 on the flop with something and if he's as bad as u say and would call with mp no kicker- then how would he fold to a reraise - kinda lost here with ur logic

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:54AM

lol

There is no logic to his play. I know with 100% certainty tho that he will fold to my re raise.

It looks so strong and even he can see that.

Ace2007 · 09-08-2007 12:57AM

Theresalwaysone wrote:

lol

It looks so strong and even he can see that.

If he can spot this then u can't be playing that much poker, because there are worst players out there than him.

U said above "he's the worse player i've palyed against"

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 12:59AM

Ace2007 wrote:

If he can spot this then u can't be playing that much poker, "

What does this even mean?

Captain Tom · 09-08-2007 01:02AM

Theresalwaysone wrote:

There is no logic to his play. I know with 100% certainty tho that he will fold to my re raise.

It looks so strong and even he can see that.

Theresalwaysone wrote:

By far and away the worst player I have ever played with. He is an ATM. I swear to god. its ridiculous.

im trying my best no to sound like a pri*k but seriously either the read you gave us is way off or this is results based thinking. i dont know if you started this thread for actual discussion because you seem very close minded to any alternative line than call.

pushing is best here and it's not close.

Theresalwaysone · 09-08-2007 01:17AM

OK, I know that pushing is the best line to take. The read is not way off its just hard to explain. Its like if anyone else at the table re-raised, he calls. But to me he has respect, unfounded, but respect.

He is always bluffing, he will bet any board at any time given any action.

I know giving him a free card is a mistake but I believe he is at best on a flush draw.

It is results based thinking. Thats why I posted it. I know a push is the best move but it got me thinking of an alternative. I know if I check he will push any turn and obv I will snap call unless its a serious danger card.