Frank McDonald

Transport21 Fan

That's it really.

Thank you.

Victor

Context please.

popebenny16

Hi T21, how's it going?

Context please.

There's a whole thread of it!

Transport21 Fan

I want to personally thank Metrobest for opening my eyes to Frank McDonald and the irovy tower rubbish he constantly spouts in lieu of transport commentary. I was recently spring cleaning out 5 years of newspaper articles on transport I had in my spare room and among them were every article Frank wrote on the subject.

Frankly speaking, what a whole load of nothing. All this typical Irish Times armchair fluff about how Dubs prefer private cars to public transport because they were denied his Finnish uthopian dream, without him mentioning once that people in Helsinki never had to deal with 60 years of the CIE unions operating their public transport.

Some of his articles beggar belief. Citing Brian Guckian on 2+1 road design and quotes from the English manor house that is IRN.

But his latest manifesto on attacking the metro (and fair enough there are legit questions to be raised) on numerous points, while at the same time he is gushingly pro-Suas is bizarre to say the least.

I think Suas will be a lot of fun and I look forward to having a go on it and seeing Dublin from that vantage point and never thinking about it again. But it's hardly a visionary project like Frank makes out, and in terms of priority certainly well below that of even the worst possible Metro design.

Frank McDonald enjoys far too much of a sacred cow status and yes in terms of planning and urban design he makes a lot of sense, when it comes to transport he is a gob****e on a bicycle.

popebenny16

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Frankly speaking, what a whole load of nothing.

Ah go on, please tell me that was deliberate!!

jdivision

I think he's gotten a bit better recently. Appointing Liam Reid to write on Environment too put a bit of a firecracker under his ass but unfortunately Reid has now left to work for the Greens in Govt. The fact they didn't approach Frank says something though. I do find him sanctimonious though and you should see how DCC bow down be fore him. So annoying. I was once at a meeting that was delayed for nearly an hour because he didn't bother turning up on time. Never mind the fact there was six or seven other journos there, without Frank it couldn't go ahead.

Transport21 Fan

jdivision wrote:

I do find him sanctimonious though and you should see how DCC bow down be fore him. So annoying. I was once at a meeting that was delayed for nearly an hour because he didn't bother turning up on time. Never mind the fact there was six or seven other journos there, without Frank it couldn't go ahead.

Yes, that's the kind of sacred cow BS I am talking about. And you know he is only going to show up and say things like how we should be eating Tappas on College Green because that's how they do it in Europe.

monument

Oh, for **** sake. Stop being so childish.

T21, I agree with a lot - but not everything - both of you have to say.

But the way I see it you have no right to be criticising him for what you claim is a lack of focus on the CIE, the unions etc, because you act in the same blinding way as you're accusing him. Your "sacred cow" is however the equally messed up RPA. Guess what? Most of the blame for both should go to the government (of the day and a line of them in the past).

As for Metro North, anybody not questioning it at least in part needs their head checked. Personally I think his liking of the planned 'Suas' is bizarre due to the intrusive way it is likely to impact vs the benefit to the people and economy of Dublin. As I said I agree with much of what you say, but you're just after losing a lot of creditably by comparing a public transport project (Metro) and a tourist trap (Suas).

You've also lost creditably with this attack on McDonald.

Transport21 Fan

monument wrote:

But the way I see it you have no right to be criticising him for what you claim is a lack of focus on the CIE, the unions etc, because you act in the same blinding way as you're accusing him. Your "sacred cow" is however the equally messed up RPA. Guess what? Most of the blame for both should go to the government (of the day and a line of them in the past).

That's not the reason. As I stated, I looked over almost 5 years of his writing on the subject and it was mostly ill-informed rubbish.

As for the RPA, I have went at them many times both on here and other boards. However, I do think they get treated very harshly sometimes and they do not deserve it. The RPA have managed to get two unconnected Luas lines to nearly have the same ridership as over 2,000 miles of CIE rail lines 55 years before CIE managed it. They deserve credit and I am willing to give it to them when they deserve it. Same for CIE. I am a fair man and tell it like I see it. I am not passing judgement on Frank McDonald the human being - just pointing out he talks a lot of rubbish when he goes on about transport.

monument wrote:

As for Metro North, anybody not questioning it at least in part needs their head checked.

Show me one person who has unconditionally supported the metro and RPA from the start. Even Metrobest has not done this. You claiming something which has never happened AFAIK.

monument wrote:

Personally I think his liking of the planned 'Suas' is bizarre due to the intrusive way it is likely to impact vs the benefit to the people and economy of Dublin. As I said I agree with much of what you say, but you're just after losing a lot of creditably by comparing a public transport project (Metro) and a tourist trap (Suas).

It's just a fun tourist thing. You're right about him hyping the mickey out of it. What I object to is that he then goes on about how pointless a metro for Dublin is and does everything he can to pick flaws in it. If that's not the very essence of gob****ery, then I do not know what is. Take a look at his beloved Suas if he wants something to be over-critical about.

monument wrote:

You've also lost creditably with this attack on McDonald.

Ah well, he had it coming for a long time now and somebody had to do it. Print journalism is dead these days so it matters not. Start re-reading his transport articles with fresh eyes - I swear you'll come to the same conclusion. He says nothing really and hence why he is ignored as much as his doppleganger Sean Barrett.

Most Irish people are Transport Libertarians anyways and this is what the Government has tapped into with Transport21. Frank McDonald is as much of an anachronism as Sean Barrett these days and personally I am sick of them both in equal measure.

spacetweek

monument wrote:

Personally I think his liking of the planned 'Suas' is bizarre due to the intrusive way it is likely to impact vs the benefit to the people and economy of Dublin.

Sorry did I miss something? What's Suas?

Prof_V

I'll try not to get too involved in this, but I do think Frank can sometimes give the impression of a kind of arrogance and hostility to his opponents (see also jdivision's comments). This can have an alienating effect and ultimately generate a backlash - rural housing is a good example of where this has happened, though I would acknowledge there are other factors at work. I respect some of the stuff he's done, though.

(Full -or at least partial - disclosure: I was once a committee member of an organisation that had some dealings with Frank, though I didn't deal with him directly. I worked for a friend of his, now deceased, for several years.)

Transport21 Fan

spacetweek wrote:

Sorry did I miss something? What's Suas?

A cable car running along the quays from the Gravity Bar at Gunniess Storehouse to the Point. It's not a public transport project and I think the Suas name is a pun and not the real title. I think it's a fun idea, but not to the level our Frank does.

monument

Transport21 Fan wrote:

That's not the reason. As I stated, I looked over almost 5 years of his writing on the subject and it was mostly ill-informed rubbish.

I don't think the your points in this thread so-far are a fair rounded argument against five years work of his.

As for the RPA, I have went at them many times both on here and other boards....

We'll have to agree to disagree, but I think you give CIE a hard time compared to your backing of the RPA.

Show me one person who has unconditionally supported the metro...

I wasn't pointing any fingers there, more agreeing with (and adding to) your "fair enough" point.

It's just a fun tourist thing. You're right about him hyping the mickey out of it. What I object to is that he then goes on about how pointless a metro for Dublin is and does everything he can to pick flaws in it. If that's not the very essence of gob****ery, then I do not know what is. Take a look at his beloved Suas if he wants something to be over-critical about.

Fair enough on those grounds, before you were talking "in terms of priority" comparing Suas and the Metro. Tho, I still think the two of you are wrong supporting it, I'm unconvinced that it wont be an eye sore.

It does sometimes seam like he says that the metro is useless, but then he comes out with stuff like it would be worth while if linked into the Green line Luas.

Ah well, he had it coming for a long time now and somebody had to do it. Print journalism is dead these days so it matters not. Start re-reading his transport articles with fresh eyes - I swear you'll come to the same conclusion. He says nothing really and hence why he is ignored as much as his doppleganger Sean Barrett.

On readership numbers, print journalism is far from dead in Ireland at least.

I might have a look through his stuff online sometime I have the time.

Most Irish people are Transport Libertarians anyways and this is what the Government has tapped into with Transport21. Frank McDonald is as much of an anachronism as Sean Barrett these days and personally I am sick of them both in equal measure.

"Transport Libertarians" could mean a lot of things, could you give me a hand with that one?

gjim

I don't think the your points in this thread so-far are a fair rounded argument against five years work of his.

Nor do I and I beat "Transport 21 Fan" by 3 or 4 years with a thread attacking Frank McDonald on another forum. I think it was his aura of untouchability and his status of near beatification which wound me up; this may be the case with T21Fan because if you look at McDonald's overall record, he deserves credit and not denigration. Since then, while I still disagree with plenty that he writes, I've copped myself on.

He's not a transport planning engineer and he's not perfect but he is an reasonably honest and straight journalist who has gotten more things right than he's gotten wrong.

To deny him any credit for his positive influence on the recent development of Dublin would be ludicrous and historically ignorant. He went out on a limb when it was neither popular or profitable to champion urbanity when our inner cities (Cork, Limerick and Dublin particularly) looked for all the world like they'd just survived Luftwaffen bombing raids and the population of our cities was falling precipitously. It's difficult to appreciate how much active hatred was directed at our cities and towns at the time. We were lucky our "corporations" and politicians didn't fully level our cities to make way for dual carraigeways and the like - ala many provincial UK cities; although it was probably more poverty rather than Frank McDonald's influence that prevented it.

He was often accused of being pretentiously continental and being un-Irish for esposing developing and preserving cities; pretty much exactly what T21Fan accuses him of now with his Tapas on College Green quip. I makes you sound like a gombeen, to be honest, with the hint of xenophobia and the appeal to insular-nationalism; sure, why would we want College Green looking like a continental style public square when we can have it act like a big roundabout choked night and day with traffic? that's not the way we do things here in Ireland.

The Destruction of Dublin was an influential masterpiece and was very brave when not a single element of the Irish media would raise the subject of planning corruption. Everyone knew the process was crooked, but like the institutional child abuse decades previously, but nobody had the balls to say anything about it.

Sadly I suspect his most recent, Chaos at the Crossroads, will have less influence even though I think the points raised are even more important. Given the cross-party support (even the Green party) for building one-off houses all over the place, it expresses an unpopular viewpoint.

There's just so much populist b*llsh*t passed off as politics, analysis and journalism in this country, I can't help but admire contrarians even if I don't agree with their point of view.

I suggest you start with Chaos at the Crossroads and then try to pick up Destruction of Dublin (sadly out of print - try abebooks). Both are well written and worth reading.

Transport21 Fan

gjim wrote:

I suggest you start with Chaos at the Crossroads and then try to pick up Destruction of Dublin (sadly out of print - try abebooks). Both are well written and worth reading.

I have both of these books. Look up the thread and see what I said about him "in terms of planning and urban design he makes a lot of sense" - his gob****ery - it's concerning his writings on transport. Much of it relies on rehashing some else views. Quoting sources is one thing, but only if the source is creditable.

He is also too fond of using the Freedom of Information act to dig up old history which no longer applies as if this means something really profound when nobody cares. This may have the coffee house radicals in a tizzy, but the rest of us have to deal with the real world. Dublin needs the Metro more than it needs the Irish Times views on it.

The best way for Frank McDonald to fight for increased usage of public transport is to write articles on how un-user friendly it is much of the time. It's what kind of service you get for that money that matters, not how expensive it is.

Monument, by transport libertarians I was trying (badly I admit) to say that most Irish people these days see the need for both road and rail.

On the subject of cycling, Irish weather makes cycling not very pleasant in terms of commuting. I tried it in Dublin for a year and it's not much fun - then I started using Dublin Bus and that was simply terrible. So I moved into the city centre. You can only make Dublin a bike-friendly city up to a certain point and Dublin bus is crippled internally by unions and externally by congestion. We need more DARTs, Arrows, Metros and Luas if we are going to shift people on the East Coast out of their cars in vast numbers. Bicycles and more buses won't do that.

monument

Transport21 Fan wrote:

He is also too fond of using the Freedom of Information act to dig up old history which no longer applies as if this means something really profound when nobody cares. This may have the coffee house radicals in a tizzy, but the rest of us have to deal with the real world.

The value of the recent article on Metro North is questioning the cost.

Dublin needs the Metro more than it needs the Irish Times views on it.

We might be having a jolly good time here talking about the metros, trams, high speed rail etc etc etc etc... but at least the Times will bright some of that kind of debate into the main stream.

The best way for Frank McDonald to fight for increased usage of public transport is to write articles on how un-user friendly it is much of the time. It's what kind of service you get for that money that matters, not how expensive it is.

So spiraling costs on construction projects isn't important? That's quite interesting. And to top it off we get "value engineering" elements.

Monument, by transport libertarians I was trying (badly I admit) to say that most Irish people these days see the need for both road and rail.

On of the options he has pushed for Dublin city centre - simplified - is something like build a good few tram lines and massively curtail car use in the city centre. I'm quite surprised you're not on message with him here.

What are your views on cars and the city centre?

On the subject of cycling, Irish weather makes cycling not very pleasant in terms of commuting. I tried it in Dublin for a year and it's not much fun.... You can only make Dublin a bike-friendly city up to a certain point

The weather may be a large problem, but it's not one that can't be over come - I cycled to work for some time with the aid of full or half rain gear with few major problems.

The cycle paths in Dublin (and the lack of them in many places) is a joke. Fixing problems here would improve commutes substantially. So the point you talk of isn't close to being reached.

It can play it's part, for ever person on a bike, that's one less in a car or on cramped public transport.

Transport21 Fan

monument wrote:

What are your views on cars and the city centre?

Congestion charges. Starting ASAP.

I would also be in favour of making it easier by having some Dublin Bus and BE routes being free to use - but only, if:

A) A transport police to tackle anti-social elements from smoking to intimidation of drivers and passengers. If somebody is smoking on a bus/train they get taken off in cuffs. If anyone attacks a public transport worker there should be a massive prison sentence.

It is based on service performance targets set by an independent body.

C) No buses allowed to terminate in the city centre.

markpb

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Congestion charges. Starting ASAP.

This probably needs to be in a separate thread but IIRC the city council said they ran the traffic models on this a few years ago and it wouldn't work at present. Their main concerns were a lack of bridges crossing the river outside (but near to) the city centre, congestion on the M50 and a lack of buses to take up the slack when people switch over.

In London when it was introduced, the bus fleet was expanded before the charge was introduced and (I believe) the city council promised to ring fence the charge so it would be spent on improvements to public transport. Given the state of government policy on transport, their haphazard plans for privatisation and the EU investigation into subsidies, I can't see any more money being spent on buses at the moment.

gjim

Hmmm.. where did the "Gobsh*te on a bicyle" bit go?

T21Fan, yes you did qualify your "gobsh*te - that's it" introduction later on but really your opening gambit was an invitation to stick the boot into McDonald. An easy enough target in some ways but I can't get get myself enthused about a frenzy of bashing bicycle riding, D4, Irish Times reading, An-Taisce supporting, crypto West-Brit, continental, wine drinking types. The stereotype is used too much to deflect criticism of gombeenism. And I wanted to point out the good stuff the man has done to balance some of the simple-minded stuff he has written about transport.

To claim that his articles on transport are old news is unfair. There is simply nothing in the mainstream media covering Transport 21. Any coverage at all, if it isn't completely ignorant, should be welcome. It may be old news to geeks who hang around internet forums like this (and I'm including myself in this category of people) but I can assure you that the content of that article would be news to 99% of the population.

I'm still puzzled about what has riled you up so. There's nothing I can see in the "Article: Planned Dublin metro line to cost more than €5bn" thread or quoted article which is highly objectionable. It's not gobsh*tery to ask whether spending €5 billion on a single public transport project which is projected to deliver 30 million passenger journeys a year makes sense when the Luas has delivered over 20 million passenger journeys for €750 million. Or when the Interconnector and related projects will deliver two and a half times the number of passenger journeys a year for slightly over half the cost.

When you look at what the 5 billion could buy for the city, then the 17km airport metro looks like a vanity project for the politicians and the RPA. For that sort of money you could have, for example: 125km of Luas lines (five times the existing coverage) including Luas to the Airport and Howth Junction, 45km of heavy rail going to the Airport and to Navan and still have half a billion to try to sort out Dublin Bus.

Having said all that, I still support Metro North even 'though I believe fundamentally it's a waste of money compared to what we could be getting in terms of public transport. The government seem willing to waste money left and right on all sorts of things - particularly non-capital projects - so I feel if they're going to waste money on anything, then there are worse things they could be blowing it on.

Irish and Proud

I used to come across Frank McDonald's articles quite a bit in the 1990's and to say the least, he came across to me as an anti-car fanatic. How dare he blame the people for driving their cars when there's sweet FA public transport in most areas adjoining Dublin. Someone made the point that he lives in Temple Bar which I know is several miles from D'Olier Street where the Irish Times are based! :rolleyes: So if Frank McDonald doesn't need a car, why does anyone else? :rolleyes: What a joke! :mad:

The kind of journalist we need is one who puts forward innovative and realistic concepts for public transport, and question those who say it can't be done. How about breaking the mould and suggesting a new rail link tunnel (no stations underground) from north of Clontarf to Belcamp where a major interchange station would be provided serving two surface lines from there, one to the Airport, and one to Malahide. What would that do? Well it would complement the interconnector and provide a fast rail link to the airport (express rail links to airports are all the rage now!), but it would also solve the capacity problem on the Northern DART Line, by allowing the Enterprise and Northern Commuter trains to by-pass the original alignment, which would become a 100% rapid transit line. If Frank McDonald was worth his salt, he would come up with something like such. Would Metro North be needed then - would the LUAS not serve the Northside better (more stations, easy accessibility etc) - how about extending the proposed LUAS from Liffey Jct on to Finglas and Ballymun, and the proposed one from Rathfarnham to Artane/Coolock.

See, I'm just an ordinary guy and I'm already outperforming Frank McDonald!

Carawaystick

Frank has his faults but compared to Tracy Hogan of the indo he's far ahead.

This whole thing came from the govt refusing to release documentation on the cost of metro north and the IT eventually appealing it far enough to get out of date material to publish.

IT is on Tara st now btw. still not much further from Temple bar though...

Ford Cortina

I've been looking for some place to dump my old car, instead of rolling it off a cliff I think I'll drive into Frank's residence and leave it there.

Victor

I'm sure he lives on an upper floor

jrar

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Congestion charges. Starting ASAP.

C) No buses allowed to terminate in the city centre.

What excuse do DB give for the sheer number of routes that terminate in the city centre (sorry, "An Lar" !!) - if a through-route works for the likes of the 16/16A then why not have more of them, istead of city street cluttered up with stationary buses whilst crews come and go on shift changes, and oil slicks build up on the roadways. Total waste of a valuable resource havoig a bus sitting for any length of time especially on a city centre street !

markpb

jrar wrote:

What excuse do DB give for the sheer number of routes that terminate in the city centre (sorry, "An Lar" !!) - if a through-route works for the likes of the 16/16A then why not have more of them, istead of city street cluttered up with stationary buses whilst crews come and go on shift changes, and oil slicks build up on the roadways. Total waste of a valuable resource havoig a bus sitting for any length of time especially on a city centre street !

I think DCC should share a big part of the blame for this one. Have you ever tried to get a 16/A after it crosses the city? It can take anywhere from 5 minutes to 35 minutes to get through the city centre making it totally unreliable for people on the far side.

In any event, any new routes that have been added lately have been cross-city (4, 142, 151) so I guess that's what they're aiming for.

Transport21 Fan

markpb wrote:

Have you ever tried to get a 16/A after it crosses the city? It can take anywhere from 5 minutes to 35 minutes to get through the city centre making it totally unreliable for people on the far side.

But at the same time one has to wonder how much of this is caused by DB buses stopping starting, parking. shuffling in the city centre. The flow of traffic does get affected by this.

What about terminating all northiside buses along the SCR between Portobello and Rialto. That's some distance to play with and the NIMBY factor is low around there as it all transient, immigrant communities. All southside originating buses like wise could terminate along Drumcondra Road They would all be in effect crosstown routes then and terminating buses in the city centre would be done away with. Am I being too simplistic?

markpb wrote:

In any event, any new routes that have been added lately have been cross-city (4, 142, 151) so I guess that's what they're aiming for.

Cos' it's a great idea. But its not enough.

This is the kind of thing Frank McDonald should be writing about. Not exclusively blaming people who have cars, or nit picking now meaningless metro costings which no longer apply.

He picks safe targets, cos he's a gob****e on a bicycle.

Carawaystick

Dublin Bus would probably have to ask the same dept of transport who won't let 41x use the port tunnel, if they could change their routes to terminate outside the city centre....

DerekP11

Just a quick question.

If we stop all buses terminating in the city centre (aka O'Connell St. and surrounds) What will happen to the wonderful DB (ex CIE) canteen behind Clearys. Does a steady trade and provides cut price meals to retired CIE workers aswell.

If we can't feed them, services will grind to a halt.:D

popebenny16

Frank was on the Turgidy show this morning and said that we should have a congestion charge at the M50 inwards.

Great. Super.

jrar

DerekP11 wrote:

Just a quick question.

If we stop all buses terminating in the city centre (aka O'Connell St. and surrounds) What will happen to the wonderful DB (ex CIE) canteen behind Clearys. Does a steady trade and provides cut price meals to retired CIE workers aswell.

If we can't feed them, services will grind to a halt.:D

Indeed Derek, in my earlier post when I queried why DB don't have more cross-town routes, I made the cardinal sin of forgetting that they exist for the benefit of their workers, and incidental nuisances and annoyances such as actual paying customers ought not to deflect from their raison d'etre :rolleyes:

KC61

There is no bar on cross-city routes, in fact the Dublin Bus commissioned MVA study advocated having more of them. We have already seen the new routes 4, 151 and 142 all of which are cross-city. However, as indicated in several other threads there are plans for more cross-city routes but these are stalled due to licensing difficulties.

To suggest that the sole reason that routes start/stop in the city is because of canteen facilities is stretching things a bit. The 46A/145/84 all have driver changes at Donnybrook Garage and not in the city centre, but they all terminate in the city.

The Lucan QBC routes have many changes at Conyngham Road, most of the Tallaght routes take their break in Ringsend now where the terminus is.

Indeed, countering the arguments above, it is the cross-city routes that mainly hand over in the city centre at Parnell Square!!

I would suggest that most city termini/bus stands are on streets that do not have heavy traffic and do not cause major congestion:
Hawkins Street
Pearse St (opp. Garda Station) - which is bus only
Fleet Street (bus only)
Townsend Street (bus bay)
Eden Quay (riverside contraflow bus lane)
Eden Quay (northside - no buses parked there)
Lower Abbey Street (no buses parked there)
Parnell Square East
Mountjoy Square (adjacent to bus depot - no real traffic)
Talbot Street
Marlboro Street

The only termini that I can think of that really could free up space for a bus lane would be:
Aston Quay

As far as the notion of buses laying over at peak hour, I'd have to say that I'm not aware of any that layover in the morning/evening peak, save where a driver changes over and that generally is for no more than 10 minutes in one of the streets above. Of course during the summer holidays with less traffic that layover time might increase, but come September it'll fall back again.

There are certainly very few if any buses laying over in the city centre for hours during the day - they virtually all return to the relevant depot.

paulm17781

Drivers have a good habit of swapping at Donnybrook at rush hour. I have waited 10 minutes for a driver change at 8.30 before. Customer always comes first. :rolleyes:

KC61

paulm17781 wrote:

Drivers have a good habit of swapping at Donnybrook at rush hour. I have waited 10 minutes for a driver change at 8.30 before. Customer always comes first. :rolleyes:

Very few driver changes take place in the middle of the morning rush hour, and the only way that you could be waiting is if the first driver reaches there ahead of the scheduled time, which can happen if traffic levels are low. The second driver may not be due to take up for that 10 minute period.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this argument. People are complaining about buses parked in the city due to driver changes, and others about changes en route. If you say they should all take place in the relevant depot then you are faced with many buses travelling empty to/from the depot thereby reducing the number of buses in service and increasing fuel costs.

Unfortunately drivers do have to changeover at some point and that is not always possible at an outer terminus that has no facilities whatsoever!!

paulm17781

KC61 wrote:

Very few driver changes take place in the middle of the morning rush hour, and the only way that you could be waiting is if the first driver reaches there ahead of the scheduled time, which can happen if traffic levels are low. The second driver may not be due to take up for that 10 minute period.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't in this argument.

Here's a radical idea... How about, the driver leaves the garage when the bus leaves the city or the driver radios through to Donnybrook and tells the driver he's 10 minutes away and the replacement driver goes to the stop at that minute. The only reason people are damned in this argument is the shoddy work practices of DB.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote:

Here's a radical idea... How about, the driver leaves the garage when the bus leaves the city or the driver radios through to Donnybrook and tells the driver he's 10 minutes away and the replacement driver goes to the stop at that minute. The only reason people are damned in this argument is the shoddy work practices of DB.

At the end of the day there have to be rosters drawn up, in order to operate a transport service. Drivers, like any of the rest of us have maximum working hours under EU legislation, and under Irish employement law must take their allocated breaks. Furthermore, unlike an office based employee, PSV drivers are subject to very rigid enforcement of maximum driving hours and can face prosecution for driving excessive hours or not taking scheduled breaks.

So what are you suggesting? That the second driver should not get the break that he is entitled to, if he is already taking it? And that if he is starting his duty that he should turn up early and work more hours than he is legally obliged to do? The other option is that the first driver drives slowly along the route, which he could do I suppose!

This problem is more prevalent during the summer months where there is less traffic and fewer passengers and buses can reach the changeover point earlier. However, it is true to say that with the variable traffic conditions in Dublin it is very difficult to predict exactly when a bus will reach a particular point, and the schedule reflects the best estimate of the scheduler of when the bus should reach that point.

As an example of the unpredictability can I give the following? The chaotic traffic in Dublin City centre caused one bus duty yesterday on routes 2 and 3 to have one journey cancelled and two others halved. Why? The bus was stuck in gridlock. Meantime the controllers are attempting to patch things up as best they can while ensuring that 1) passengers get from a to b and 2) drivers keep within the legal hours and get their breaks! On another day that service could work perfectly!

The schedulers try to come up with the most likely running time within working hours constraints and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I would suggest that it works more often than not.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote:

So what are you suggesting? That the second driver should not get the break that he is entitled to, if he is already taking it?

There we go. You just showed how the driver should benefit rather than the passengers. The driver should get his break, even if it delays passengers you just said. Now, how is sitting on a bench at Donnybrook garage for 10 minutes working?

Please, don't spout me rubbish of working hours and breaks, I'm sure they can make up their 10 minutes at the terminus if they are early. Simple changes in working practices could make DB a proper outfit but the like of you with your failure to compromise is what prevents this happening.

markpb

paulm17781 wrote:

Simple changes in working practices could make DB a proper outfit but the like of you with your failure to compromise is what prevents this happening.

A much simpler change would be DCC (and the other city councils) stop building pretend bus lanes and start doing it properly. At least then DB could schedule their buses in a predictable way and the passenger would get a much better service.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote:

There we go. You just showed how the driver should benefit rather than the passengers. The driver should get his break, even if it delays passengers you just said. Now, how is sitting on a bench at Donnybrook garage for 10 minutes working?

Please, don't spout me rubbish of working hours and breaks, I'm sure they can make up their 10 minutes at the terminus if they are early. Simple changes in working practices could make DB a proper outfit but the like of you with your failure to compromise is what prevents this happening.

Trust me I'm quite happy to criticise Dublin Bus and have done frequently. I would be no happier sitting on that bus than you are. But what about all of the other days where you are not waiting? I'm simply making the point that in scheduling buses you're not dealing with an exact science, and it is not as black and white as you outline.

The legislation on working hours is however very clear, and requires a particular length of break after a certain number of hours worked. DB do not have an option here. The drivers cannot split breaks, they are legally obliged to take a certain length of break. Don't blame me or DB work practices for that - that is the subject of the legislation passed by the politicians voted in by this electorate.

Mark is right - there is a need to focus on why buses are not operating to schedule and how predictable schedules can be arrived at.

paulm17781

markpb wrote:

A much simpler change would be DCC (and the other city councils) stop building pretend bus lanes and start doing it properly. At least then DB could schedule their buses in a predictable way and the passenger would get a much better service.

True, that would make a massive difference.

Now regarding breaks, I'm sure there is legislation that they must take a break (1 hour / 30 mins??? ) for every 4 hours worked. I'm sure the option also exists to replace that with a 10 min break every hour or some such.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote:

True, that would make a massive difference.

Now regarding breaks, I'm sure there is legislation that they must take a break (1 hour / 30 mins??? ) for every 4 hours worked. I'm sure the option also exists to replace that with a 10 min break every hour or some such.

I think that you'll find that for jobs that involve a PSV licenceholder that option does not apply!

Andrew Duffy

Now regarding breaks, I'm sure there is legislation that they must take a break (1 hour / 30 mins??? ) for every 4 hours worked. I'm sure the option also exists to replace that with a 10 min break every hour or some such.

What happens when a tired bus driver makes a mistake that kills a bus load of passengers? Extra funding for busses and bus lanes, new methods to improve efficiency, almost anything to improve our ability to move around should all be encouraged; but advocating a reduction in safety is counterproductive.

KC61

Andrew Duffy wrote:

What happens when a tired bus driver makes a mistake that kills a bus load of passengers? Extra funding for busses and bus lanes, new methods to improve efficiency, almost anything to improve our ability to move around should all be encouraged; but advocating a reduction in safety is counterproductive.

The focus has to be on improving the reliability of bus schedules so that a scheduler can with reasonable certainty predict when a bus will reach a certain point, and from that develop full working timetables so that schedules can be prepared with reliable intermediate timings. This would hopefully avoid the incidence of 10 minute waits at Donnybrook garage, which are in no-one's interest.

There is also a case for potentially developing school term and non-school term schedules to take account of the different journey times (particularly in the morning peak), but the work involved in that would be fairly enormous, and would of course require the full departmental licensing process to be implemented again!

Incidentally, the perception of more buses "stopped" in the city centre is probably enhanced by the fact that since the introduction of LUAS, significantly greater numbers of buses are travelling along the triangle of D'Olier Street, College Street, and Westmoreland Street - namely all the buses that previously serviced Middle Abbey Street (25/A, 26, 37, 38, 39/A/B, 66/A/B, 67/A and 70/A).

Also far more bus routes now operate along O'Connell Street (5, 7/A/B/D/E, 8, 14/A, 46A/B/C/D/E, 48A, 63 and 145) as a result of the terminus reallocation required by LUAS, which would have added to the perception of more buses in the city.

One has to wonder where the buses will go to that are currently in Marlboro Street and Hawkins Street if the LUAS city centre extension takes place? Perhaps the new bus station at Strand Street will remove the Blanchardstown/Lucan routes from Hawkins Street and Pearse Street, but where all of the services operated from Clontarf are going to go is anyone's guess. There is scope for more route mergers, but having everything cross-city can lead to serious reliability issues.

markpb

If DB and Irish Rail had put their heads together *at all*, they would have built a proper bus station at the new Docklands station and terminated a lot of buses there. I appreciate that the station has a life of ten years but it would be a problem swept away for ten years.

When the Ulster Bank towers were being built on Georges Quay, why didn't DCC and DB get in there and offer money towards building an underground bus garage? Perfect rail integration, perfect city centre location. They can do it in Stockholm under the Hilton, they can do it in Belfast under the Europa but we can't do it in Dublin? If they'd done that, all the buses that trundle along Talbot St (which was cleverly engineered to make it even less suitable for buses) and along Marlborough St could have parked up there instead.

Right now there's an entire street lying almost completely empty (bar a few parked-up BE buses) right under Connolly Station with easy access to Amiens St and Custom House Quay. It could easily be closed to traffic and used to terminate buses or as a mini-bus station instead of having waiting passengers clogging up the streets.

There are a whole lot of problems outside DB's control but there's plenty they do could if they put their mind to it.

KC61

markpb wrote:

If DB and Irish Rail had put their heads together *at all*, they would have built a proper bus station at the new Docklands station and terminated a lot of buses there. I appreciate that the station has a life of ten years but it would be a problem swept away for ten years.

When the Ulster Bank towers were being built on Georges Quay, why didn't DCC and DB get in there and offer money towards building an underground bus garage? Perfect rail integration, perfect city centre location. They can do it in Stockholm under the Hilton, they can do it in Belfast under the Europa but we can't do it in Dublin? If they'd done that, all the buses that trundle along Talbot St (which was cleverly engineered to make it even less suitable for buses) and along Marlborough St could have parked up there instead.

Right now there's an entire street lying almost completely empty (bar a few parked-up BE buses) right under Connolly Station with easy access to Amiens St and Custom House Quay. It could easily be closed to traffic and used to terminate buses or as a mini-bus station instead of having waiting passengers clogging up the streets.

There are a whole lot of problems outside DB's control but there's plenty they do could if they put their mind to it.

You still have to remember that we are dealing with an urban public transport system here.

There will still have to be bus stops located about the city centre to pick up/set down passengers. You are talking about termini, and I think as my post above indicates, these are almost all on little used side streets or bus only streets.

markpb

KC61 wrote:

There will still have to be bus stops located about the city centre to pick up/set down passengers.

That would be what I meant by "problems outside DBs control" and my previous post about Dublin's lack of actual bus lanes I was referring to your previous post when you asked where the current Marlborough and Hawkins st bus terminii will go when the Luas extensions are in place. My bad for not quoting.

Hoof Hearted

The issue of the timing of breaks can be a big issue for someone like a bus driver unlike people who work in an office, for example, I know a bus driver, a happy looking bloke, who will remain un-named, that wore an adult diaper:o becasue of his hourly needs. Needless to say hitting a hard bump or pothole wasn't any help.

How can I say it gently, there are times that you wish you had entered the bus on the side/rear and not the front.:eek:

strassenwolf

Frank McDonald.




I just thought this thread might need a mention of him from time to time.:p

gjim

strassenwolf wrote:

Frank McDonald.

I'm glad you brought it up. After reading the subsequent posts, I've changed my mind. The guy's obviously a g*bsh*te given that he never writes articles about the state of the health service, the destabalising effect of the war in Iraq, how to fix Dublin Bus, the argument to provide micro-nutriants to globally eradicate disease caused by malnutrician, or any other subject some indignant person somewhere feels is more important or interesting. What a dork.