Dempsey or Murphy

Linford

Girvan Dempsey or Geordan Murphy. I thought this had been decided in favour of Girvan many, many moons ago, but everytime there is a post on Irish rugby this topic is raised.

I am a big fan of Dempsey, he is a true full-back, brilliant under the high ball, a great defender, a great defensive and offensive kicker and a pretty good attacker. Murphy is unsafe under the high ball, is the worst defender in the Irish team, is an average kicker and only an average attacking player. He can make some brilliant breaks and has scored some great tries but he has lost the ball in attack so many times and with the likes of O'Driscoll, Darcy, Hickie and Horgan on the team he doesn't add anything extra.

Amazotheamazing

I was with you until you said "pretty good attacker". Dempsey is a lot of things, but an attacker isn't one of them. Dempsey makes rugby horrible to watch, so dull and predictable, and bizarrely, he's an awful passer. Great in defence, but only average going forward (and that's being generous)

You obviously dislike Murphy for some non-rugby related reason if you think he's unsafe under high balls and only an average attacking player.

Stev_o

Ah here now Murphy unsafe under the high ball? You probably dont watch any Leicester matches i presume.

Lets maybe just start with the facts we know in this thread okay so they dont get repeated 100 times.

Murphy is inconsistent in defence thats a fact, he can have his days and his off days we all know that.

Girve has nothing in attack thus we lack a good counter attacker full back.


Right so their two facts that im guessing everyone will repeat again again in this thread so please dont.

As for Murphy having a terrible boot are you mad man??? One thing he is very much credited for by everyone is a great boot from his GAA days.

If Murphy got a defence coach with him from now to the RWC he'd be picked over Girve anyday in my mind. But until the Girve will get first pick because he is consistent in defence

marco_polo

Geordan Murphy

Linford wrote:

Girvan Dempsey or Geordan Murphy. I thought this had been decided in favour of Girvan many, many moons ago, but everytime there is a post on Irish rugby this topic is raised.

I am a big fan of Dempsey, he is a true full-back, brilliant under the high ball, a great defender, a great defensive and offensive kicker and a pretty good attacker. Murphy is unsafe under the high ball, is the worst defender in the Irish team, is an average kicker and only an average attacking player. He can make some brilliant breaks and has scored some great tries but he has lost the ball in attack so many times and with the likes of O'Driscoll, Darcy, Hickie and Horgan on the team he doesn't add anything extra.

To be fair Murphy is more than an average attacking player he is an excellent attacking player with plenty of flair and invention, and is also very solid under the high ball. Sure he has had two very high profile bad games against France in the past few years, but why does everyone insist in completely writing him off for the rest of his career on that basis? Has no other player ever thrown a few misplaced passes or missed a tackle?

I remember D'Arcy going through a similar bad spell after his breakthrough season in 2004 and look at him now.

Having said all that Girv is rightfully installed as the first choice fullback as he does the all the basics very well, has improved the attaking aspects of his game and is the form of his life for the past two seasons.

If Girv was injured or we were losing with 10 minutes to go I know I would be more than happy with Murphy entering the fray.

NotWormBoy

Geordan Murphy

I'd agree with the above post, pretty much all the way. Look at the Welsh game during the 6N. He practically turned that match while he was on for Hickey. Great garryowen, great catch, great offload and was involved again in spreading the play. The only thing (and its a big thing) is his lack of consistency. And thats why Gempsey gets the nod (rightly) for the 1st choice.

Amazotheamazing

the real problem with Murphy's missed tackle on Ibanez this year is how did possession get so recycled that you have a hooker being tackled by a fullback 2m's from the line? It was a mismatch, most outside backs would be caught out in that situation.

Overall though, Murphy has never brought his club form to the Int game, though, Leicester make a better use of him than we do.

jdivision

Geordan Murphy

Murphy is quite tentative attacking at international level compared to playing for Leicester, he's almost too conscious about turnovers when he goes to ground. Girvan is a terrible attacking player and up until this year I would never have picked him but Murphy just isn't consistent enough and now "The Swerve" (has there ever been a less correct nickname) gets my vote. Girv's a bit less tentative going forward then he used to be but still needs to trust himself the odd time.

carlowboy

Geordan Murphy

Stev_o wrote:

Ah here now Murphy unsafe under the high ball? You probably dont watch any Leicester matches i presume.

Lets maybe just start with the facts we know in this thread okay so they dont get repeated 100 times.

Murphy is inconsistent in defence thats a fact, he can have his days and his off days we all know that.

Girve has nothing in attack thus we lack a good counter attacker full back.


Right so their two facts that im guessing everyone will repeat again again in this thread so please dont.

As for Murphy having a terrible boot are you mad man??? One thing he is very much credited for by everyone is a great boot from his GAA days.

If Murphy got a defence coach with him from now to the RWC he'd be picked over Girve anyday in my mind. But until the Girve will get first pick because he is consistent in defence

When has Murphy ever have on days at international level in defence?????
I'm sure Murphy concentrates most on his defence in training and he's not improving at all. He just doesn't have it!

As for Murphy's perceived brilliance in attack, when was the last time he scored an important try for Ireland???? Girv has scored numerous.

marco_polo wrote:

I remember D'Arcy going through a similar bad spell after his breakthrough season in 2004 and look at him now.

To be fair he was still injured that season and was still injured on the Lions tour.

Stev_o

Carlowboy you either must be very ignorant or have a personal grudge against Murphy. Since you brought up defence and most likely pointing at the French game well he missed Ibanez yeah okay that was bad but he made up for it soon after when the French where on our 5 meter line they WERE going to score and out of nowhere he got a turnover from his tackle which saved us.

You know its all about players that score tries. D'Arcy who is very very good gets **** all most of the time but what he is a game breaker he will set us up in a position to score tries and thats the same with Murphy and since you asked he scored a important try against the Wallabies and set BOD up in the corner in the Welsh match pretty much turning the game in our favour.

Girve scored against england from a overlap which he basically stood in the line.......not the most amazing way for a FB to score a try....

LFC5Times

Geordan Murphy

Its a no-brainer - id have Dempsey every single time too many reasons but basically the last line of defence i want someone reliable,brave and not trying to be flashy and in Dempsey you get that.

Leicester over the years have chopped and changed Murphy between wing and fullback(and it wasnt because of injuries) proving there is times they dont fully trust him at fullback.

High&Low

Geordan Murphy

First time poster.

I also think Dempsey is a hell of a lot better than Murphy but Murphy is a better attacking player. I think with all of the Leinster three quarter at 11-14 the need for a full back with attacking flair is not that important, but the need for a solid fullback is.

Do any of the Murphy supporters think that O'Driscoll would be as relevant on the Irish team if he wasn't equaly brilliant in defence as he is in attack?

nacho libre

Geordan Murphy

What is the benefit in having an attacking player? if he is going to show deference to the likes of Ibanez, insisting on giving said player a free run to the line.
Still, I presume his supporters will say this is a rare occurence and this weakness is offset by his attacking prowess.

carlowboy

Geordan Murphy

Stev_o wrote:

Carlowboy you either must be very ignorant or have a personal grudge against Murphy. Since you brought up defence and most likely pointing at the French game well he missed Ibanez yeah okay that was bad but he made up for it soon after when the French where on our 5 meter line they WERE going to score and out of nowhere he got a turnover from his tackle which saved us.

He missed a tackle in the build up to that and was poorly positioned. You miss that too?

You know its all about players that score tries. D'Arcy who is very very good gets **** all most of the time but what he is a game breaker he will set us up in a position to score tries and thats the same with Murphy and since you asked he scored a important try against the Wallabies and set BOD up in the corner in the Welsh match pretty much turning the game in our favour.

Are you comparing D'Arcy to Murphy in game breaking ability? Oh please :rolleyes:

Girve scored against england from a overlap which he basically stood in the line.......not the most amazing way for a FB to score a try....

Since when is style more important than substance in an fb?

And also, if you call Girv's try a run in while mentioning Murphy's against Australia? You can't have it both ways!

carlowboy

Geordan Murphy

High&Low wrote:

First time poster.

I also think Dempsey is a hell of a lot better than Murphy but Murphy is a better attacking player. I think with all of the Leinster three quarter at 11-14 the need for a full back with attacking flair is not that important, but the need for a solid fullback is.

Do any of the Murphy supporters think that O'Driscoll would be as relevant on the Irish team if he wasn't equaly brilliant in defence as he is in attack?

Agree with you 100%. Great first post. With strike runners like Ireland/Leinster have, you need a solid backbone at fb.

Tim Robbins

Geordan Murphy

Murphy's tackling is just not up to international standard. It's not just the missed tackle on Ibanez - he regularly misses tackles at international level. Doesn't happen that often at Leicester because it's a lower level than international level and he's playing in a team that is usually going forward and in a league where there isn't that much attacking back play.

nacho libre

Geordan Murphy

carlowboy wrote:

Agree with you 100%. Great first post. With strike runners like Ireland/Leinster have, you need a solid backbone at fb.

That the crux of the issue right there. Murphy certainly doesn't meet this requirement.

Sangre

I've never rated Murphy in an Irish jersey, he has never done it for me. At fullback you need to have your basics right.

Imo the only reason this debate keeps coming up is because he plays in the Guiness Premership and is consequently over rated.

Linford

Geordan Murphy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

I was with you until you said "pretty good attacker". Dempsey is a lot of things, but an attacker isn't one of them. Dempsey makes rugby horrible to watch, so dull and predictable, and bizarrely, he's an awful passer. Great in defence, but only average going forward (and that's being generous)

You obviously dislike Murphy for some non-rugby related reason if you think he's unsafe under high balls and only an average attacking player.

I disagree with you that Dempsey is a horrible attacker, he doesn't have the flair and line breaking ability of Murphy, but he does have the ability to retain possession in the tackle and has come into the line on many an occasion to score vitally important tries.

I have nothing against Murphy outside of rugby, he appears to a nice guy, but the one thing I have always hated in rugby is a player that shy's away from a tackle. O'Gara used to have this problem but he seems to have made huge progress in recent years.

Linford

Geordan Murphy

NotWormBoy wrote:

I'd agree with the above post, pretty much all the way. Look at the Welsh game during the 6N. He practically turned that match while he was on for Hickey. Great garryowen, great catch, great offload and was involved again in spreading the play. The only thing (and its a big thing) is his lack of consistency. And thats why Gempsey gets the nod (rightly) for the 1st choice.

Just bear in mind what position Murphy was when he performed that play against Wales, he was on the wing not at full back. I think Murphy is a better winger than he is fullback.

shmaido

Geordan Murphy

Linford wrote:

Just bear in mind what position Murphy was when he performed that play against Wales, he was on the wing not at full back. I think Murphy is a better winger than he is fullback.

I don't think its that simple, he was actually playing wing that day against France if you remember and full back for the fr match the year before, two of his biggest knightmares. Wing or fb it doesn't seem to matter, his form just does not translate from club to international level, personally I reckon its a mental thing rather than a lack of skills thing,maybe he needs a good head coach as well as a defense coach.

As for my vote its Girve all the way, used to be a huge critic but that "swirve" of his has won me over, the last two seasons at leinster have done wonders to his attacking game, combine that with his impecable defense and he's streets ahead of Murphy

LFC5Times

Geordan Murphy

Sangre wrote:

Imo the only reason this debate keeps coming up is because he plays in the Guiness Premership and is consequently over rated.

Exactly just like Johnny O'Connor - the way some of the pundits and Dallaglio and Gatland went on about him and he cant even make the 37 man Ireland squad or isnt even good enough for Wasps starting 15 and was average whenever he did play for Ireland.

marco_polo

Geordan Murphy

LFC5Times wrote:

Exactly just like Johnny O'Connor - the way some of the pundits and Dallaglio and Gatland went on about him and he cant even make the 37 man Ireland squad or isnt even good enough for Wasps starting 15 and was average whenever he did play for Ireland.

His situation is just like Geordan Murphy's. Except perhaps for the not being in a full Irish squad in about 3 years and barely being able to get a game for Wasps? And also not being very good?

Yes there is a lot of mediocrity in the GP but I don't think you can include a regular starter for the top club Leicester in that group.

LFC5Times

Geordan Murphy

marco_polo wrote:

Yes Jonny O'Connor's situation is just like Geordan Murphy's. Except perhaps for the not being in a full Irish squad in about 3 years and barely being able to get a game for Wasps?

Yes there is a lot of mediocrity in the GP but I don't think you can include a regular starter for the top club Leicester in that group.

If you read the email that i quoted to and referred to properly you would see i wasnt saying Geordan Murphy was mediorce but OVERRATED like Johnny O'Connor

Also i didnt say anything abnout Johnny O'Connor barely getting a game as you say, i referred to him not getting in Wasps starting 15 , you really need to read posts properly before commenting on them.

Are you saying (in your confused smiley about O'Connor barely playing for Wasps) that Johnny O'Connor gets ahead and is rated better than Dallaglio,Worsley,Rees and Haskell when they are not with England or free of injury ? he is behind them 4, id question if you even have heard of Rees and Haskell seeing as you picked Heaslip ahead of Ferris in your Ireland squad because you where not familiar with Ferris.

Amazotheamazing

Can't wait for Kearney to come through tbh.

LFC5Times

Geordan Murphy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Can't wait for Kearney to come through tbh.

Might never fully make it, could be like Gavin Duffy - a schoolboy wonder but still yet to make it.

Amazotheamazing

Think better systems are in place now to help young players make it.

People who never saw a young Duffy or Staunton play will never know the immense sadness I see when they play now. Both had it all at underage, and both have really struggled in the pro game.

[Jackass]

Geordan Murphy

With arguably one of the most explosive backlines from 11 to 14 in the world and a solid, game controlling pair at 9 and 10 (although i'm not in the stringer camp, I think Reddan would add more as an all rounder to our game and Boss' sniping runs make him a good impact sub...but that's for another thread) I think the fact that we have unpredictibable genuis all through our backs means the safe option of Dempsey at 15 makes perfect sense.

Sure, Murphy can turn a game, such as his impact when he came on against Wales in this years 6N, but for the bread and butter of a solid backline, when Murphy is on the pitch, I always feel uneasy when the oposition make a break against us or when momentum is against us and we're trying to reorganise quickly to defend against quick ball to the opposition backs, I just feel murphy takes wrong options in defence and can be caught out of position. He's made some serious howlers in the past and in my opinion is very inconsistant.

I would consider him a very gifted player going forward, but not a natural defender. He's "OK" in defence, but that's not good enough.

Dempsey will never be at fault for a try against us and is always there to gather in kicks and find a safe return touch or send it out wide to our other attacking options. He's 100% solid and reliable. That's what we need. When you have that behind you, I think it gives the team as a whole a bit more confidence.

I would consider Murphy more as a good option to come on from the bench and add another dimension to our attacking game if required, but he is an unececary risk to have on from the start.

While he's a very worhwhile player to have, and great to see Eddie has some really good options on the bench to make an impact on the game, I think we have enough elsewhere in the backs to justify going for safety over flair at 15, for the big oposition anyway.

And also, lets not forget, Dempsey isn't exactly USELESS going forward, he's got some important tries for us in the past, such as the winner in Twickinham a few years back for our first win there in who knows how long...

marco_polo

Geordan Murphy

LFC5Times wrote:

If you read the email that i quoted to and referred to properly you would see i wasnt saying Geordan Murphy was mediorce but OVERRATED like Johnny O'Connor

Also i didnt say anything abnout Johnny O'Connor barely getting a game as you say, i referred to him not getting in Wasps starting 15 , you really need to read posts properly before commenting on them.

Are you saying (in your confused smiley about O'Connor barely playing for Wasps) that Johnny O'Connor gets ahead and is rated better than Dallaglio,Worsley,Rees and Haskell when they are not with England or free of injury ? he is behind them 4, id question if you even have heard of Rees and Haskell seeing as you picked Heaslip ahead of Ferris in your Ireland squad because you where not familiar with Ferris.

Ok perhaps I was reading between lines that weren't there. Since you compared Murphy's situation to that of a mediocre journeman I assumed you were also implying he is mediocre.

O'Connor was found out eventually in the GP, where as Murphy continues to be successful for one of the top clubs in Europe so he must be doing at least something right. I would agree that the GP is massively overhyped and the quality of many of the teams is questionable but Leicester are certainly not in that bracket.

I agree that Demspsy deserves to be the starting FB for Ireland, but I am sick of seeing threads (not on here) saying Murphy should never be in an Ireland squad again.

To sum up I definately I don't think O'Connor is better than Dallaglio, Worsley, Rees and Haskell thats for sure.;)

And I said I haven't seen Ferris play much this year, but i am sure you are a ML season ticket holder at Ravenhill?

Amazotheamazing

Nick wrote:

Dempsey will never be at fault for a try against us....

I suggest you watch the first few minutes of the quarter final against France in 2003.... just one example.

NotWormBoy

Geordan Murphy

Linford wrote:

Just bear in mind what position Murphy was when he performed that play against Wales, he was on the wing not at full back. I think Murphy is a better winger than he is fullback.

Oh, I know, aye, but the example I was on about was the try he scored during the Welsh match (when he came from way back - where Dempsey would've been coming from too). But I agree with you, he is a better winger than full back - he's more used to it too. Unfortunately, he hasn't a hope of getting in there ahead of Hickey or Horgan. And we've enough talent coming through in those positions to mean he's going to have to do it at full back or not at all, I feel...

nacho libre

Geordan Murphy

Well he booked his place today. Perhaps he was reading this forum during the week:)