Anton Le Vay

Leonitos

Has anyone read the book by Anton Le Vay?????? If so is this what Wicca or Witchcraft is all about. He himself is a wizard or was whatever the case may be.

18AD

I read his Satanic Bible a good few years ago. Honestly I didn't find it very stricking. The demonology in it was possibly the most interesting aspect.
The main thing I took away from this book was that his form of Satansim was one of self belief. Worshipping Satan seemed more like Satan worshipping you and condoling and encouraging anything you want to do. Freedom from social standards and judgement. It's very much an ego-centric route.

Of course if that's what you're after then go for it.

I read it a very long time ago, I'd probably have a completely different experience reading it now.

I'd say it's worth a look if you have the time.

Talliesin

Leonitos wrote:

Has anyone read the book by Anton Le Vay??????

A couple of them, he has written more than one.

Leonitos wrote:

If so is this what Wicca or Witchcraft is all about.

Wicca is a particular form of Pagan witchcraft.
LaVey describes a form of Satanic witchcraft.

Apart from the religious basis being entirely different, even when taken purely in terms of the witchcraft involved the two are very different. About the only similarity I can see is that modern Wicca and LaVeyan Satanism both borrow from Crowley but:

1. Who doesn't?
2. Even these borrowings are very different.

Pretty much chalk and cheese really.

Critics have described LaVeyan Satanism as being little more than Ayn Rand with some Crowley trappings and the figure of "Satan" added for shock value. Personally I find myself agreeing, and given that I don't much like Ayn Rand, this isn't much in the way of a compliment.

I find his core ideas interesting just as I find most religions interesting, nothing to do with Paganism, but interesting none the less.

Nevyn

Firstly he is not Wiccan and secondly wether is brand of satanism is pagan as been up for debate for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Szandor_LaVey

Talliesin

Thaedydal wrote:

wether is brand of satanism is pagan as been up for debate for a long time.

I'd say that barring those who say "everyone not doing X is satanic" it would be a pretty small minority view that would hold that.

Setianism though is a more debatable form.

Leonitos

Talliesin wrote:

A couple of them, he has written more than one.

Wicca is a particular form of Pagan witchcraft.
LaVey describes a form of Satanic witchcraft.

In that respect if LaVey describes a form of Satanic witchcraft, is that not in itself a contradiction on the Wicca religion which states that there is neither good nor evil, or neither God or The Devil. Or is LaVey describing a completely different religion altogeather which follows the same principles as Wicca?

Talliesin

Leonitos wrote:

Or is LaVey describing a completely different religion altogeather which follows the same principles as Wicca?

No, he's describing a completley different religion altogether which follows completely different principles as Wicca. Different ethics, different cosmology, different lineage, different history, different mythology, different ritual practice, different organisational practice, different liturgical and oral tradition.

There's really no more similarity between us than there is with Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, etc. etc.

The one thing we have in common is the use of the word "witch".

Even the operative witchcraft (that is, how magic is done leaving aside religious differences) seems very different to what I'd recognise as witchcraft.

Fair enough, it's not like we have some sort of copyright on the word (hell, we can't even stop Pagan witches that aren't Wiccan from calling themselves Wiccan, what chance would we have of stopping people from calling themselves "witch"?) but they are very different approaches.

LaVey's form of magic works starts from a very materialist metaphysics. Personally I find that just doesn't fit in with my instincts about magic (I'm pretty sure LaVey would similarly find my metaphysics a bunch of superstitious nonsense). Of all the different forms of witchcraft I've come across (I've met a lot of Pagan witches, a few Christian witches and a few witches that don't subscribe to any particular devotion but do believe there is something beyond the material plane as well as corresponding with a couple of Jewish witches) LaVey's really does seem to be the one with the least in common with the rest of us. Then again, maybe I make more of the metaphysics than others would.

Really though, I see more in common with other combinations of religion and magic-working that aren't witchcraft (like Voodoun and Seiðr). Not to say I've got much in common with either of those, but when I look at those I can sort of think "right, completely different worldview, but slightly similar way of dealing with your worldview than I have to mine". LaVey's stuff on the other hand doesn't even have that degree of similarity to my mind.

joseph dawton

This is a confusing area for a lot of people, not least because of the portrail of witchcraft by the Christian church as 'Satanic'. Pagan symbolism has been falsely attributed Satanic values for so long that many people associate the pentagram, pentacle, ankh etc with satanism.

Personally I think that the vast majority of witches now and in the past had no interest in Satan and used magic for religious or practical purposes, derived from pagan survivals.

Levay was a sensationalist and extrovert, his 'Church of Satan' strikes me as nihilistic with as smattering of Golden Dawn or Crowleyism (as Taliesin points out), I have little time for it.

There is no link with Wicca at all, however it is true that the wearing of pentacles or pentagrams is common to both. The meaning of this symbol is commonly misunderstood by non-occultists, also Satanists wear them pointing down (symbolic of Baphomet) instead of up as is usual in Hermetic magic and Wicca.

Nevyn

Actually the 1 point down and 2 points up has it's place with in Wicca as well,
but it symbolises something very specific.

Sapien

Thaedydal wrote:

Actually the 1 point down and 2 points up has it's place with in Wicca as well,
but it symbolises something very specific.

Crowleyan, Thelemite and Golden Dawn too. It's called the "averse" pentagram, and has no connection to Satan or evil.

Talliesin

joseph dawton wrote:

Personally I think that the vast majority of witches now and in the past had no interest in Satan and used magic for religious or practical purposes, derived from pagan survivals.

Well, the majority of witches now are certainly Pagan.

In the period between the middle ages and the middle of the last century I think you'd mainly find much the same religious demographic amongst people performing operative witchcraft that you'd have found throughout Western Europe (i.e. most people were either Christian, from a Christian background but had come to a rather "sod you then" attitude to it, or had no set religion but with a world view largely informed by the predominant religion around).

I think most operative witchcraft wouldn't have been as tightly tied to religious beliefs as it tends to be in modern Pagan witchcraft. Pagan witchcraft survivals wouldn't have been as numerous as people who simply did a bit of witchcraft now and again.

Some modern Pagan writers tend to advance every historical case of some old geezer doing a bit of magic as a complete Pagan survival. This tends to give the impression that all witches are Pagan which in turn combines with Wicca being the best known form of Pagan witchcraft to an impression that Wicca and witchcraft are the same thing, with the word "Wicca" now being applied to a lot of practices that have very little, if anything, in common with Wicca.

LaVey come in the mix with a form of self-aggrandising religion within which there is seen a value in doing something for shock value and which therefore could make use of the shock value of the word "witch" (remember that this was back in 1966 when some people would still be shocked if you said you performed witchcraft) and made use of the trappings of a form of horror fiction that had developed in the 50s and 60s for the psychological effect. It didn't really have any connection to any folk magic tradition, and had clearly no connection to any religious tradition (and didn't claim that it did).

And within the world view put forth by LaVey, this makes perfect sense. It just doesn't have anything to do with us.

Leonitos

Talliesin wrote:

Well, the majority of witches now are certainly Pagan.

In the period between the middle ages and the middle of the last century I think you'd mainly find much the same religious demographic amongst people performing operative witchcraft that you'd have found throughout Western Europe (i.e. most people were either Christian, from a Christian background but had come to a rather "sod you then" attitude to it, or had no set religion but with a world view largely informed by the predominant religion around).

I think most operative witchcraft wouldn't have been as tightly tied to religious beliefs as it tends to be in modern Pagan witchcraft. Pagan witchcraft survivals wouldn't have been as numerous as people who simply did a bit of witchcraft now and again.

Some modern Pagan writers tend to advance every historical case of some old geezer doing a bit of magic as a complete Pagan survival. This tends to give the impression that all witches are Pagan which in turn combines with Wicca being the best known form of Pagan witchcraft to an impression that Wicca and witchcraft are the same thing, with the word "Wicca" now being applied to a lot of practices that have very little, if anything, in common with Wicca.

LaVey come in the mix with a form of self-aggrandising religion within which there is seen a value in doing something for shock value and which therefore could make use of the shock value of the word "witch" (remember that this was back in 1966 when some people would still be shocked if you said you performed witchcraft) and made use of the trappings of a form of horror fiction that had developed in the 50s and 60s for the psychological effect. It didn't really have any connection to any folk magic tradition, and had clearly no connection to any religious tradition (and didn't claim that it did).

And within the world view put forth by LaVey, this makes perfect sense. It just doesn't have anything to do with us.

I thank all the above people for their input in making this subject somewhat clearer to me, I find myself after looking over some of LaVey's Bible that it is geared towards one doing as they would please and not caring much for the people around them, which in my understanding would be apposed by the Wiccan religion.