horse racing question abouts weights

zuzu

hello folks.

quick question about horse racing weights. in the racing post today it says that potentiale (running in 4.50 newcastle) is one to beat off 2lb higher. last run he was 8-11 with a 5lb claimer so thats really 8-6 and today hes running carrying 9-10!!! is this not a 18lb rise!!!! or am i interpreting it incorrectly??

Healio

His actual mark has gone up. He was rated 60 last week, and is now rated 62. So his rating is 2lbs higher.

Crumbs

zuzu wrote:

last run he was 8-11 with a 5lb claimer so thats really 8-6

Just a separate point on the above. In the RP results, they take the jockey's claim into account when giving the weight. So in that previous race, the horse would have been listed to carry 9-2 on the racecard but the 5lb claimer meant he actually carried 8-11.

Collie D

Crumbs wrote:

Just a separate point on the above. In the RP results, they take the jockey's claim into account when giving the weight. So in that previous race, the horse would have been listed to carry 9-2 on the racecard but the 5lb claimer meant he actually carried 8-11.

Was actually going to post a question about this. So the weight indicated in your paper every day is before the claim has been taken into account? Or adversely before a winning penalty has been taken into account eg when you see (6ex) beside a horse's weight.

Also, another question slightly on topic....what is the difference between a stakes race and a handicap?

Crumbs

Collie D wrote:

Was actually going to post a question about this. So the weight indicated in your paper every day is before the claim has been taken into account? Or adversely before a winning penalty has been taken into account eg when you see (6ex) beside a horse's weight.

Correct.

Also, another question slightly on topic....what is the difference between a stakes race and a handicap?

In a handicap, horses carry a weight based on their official rating.

In stakes races, all horses usually carry the same weight regardless of their rating. Some exceptions are a weight allowance for younger horses (eg. a 3yo against older horses), a sex allowance (fillies taking on colts/geldings) or a winner's penalty (a Group 1 winner running in a Group 2 race).

Colonel Sanders

Winning penalties are taken into account.

Example of such is Iron man in the Galway Plate. Had 10 7 originally, get a 9lb penaly for winning at Market Raesen which bumped him up to 11 2. However Jockey claimed 3lbs so would be listed as 10 13 in the racingpost results.

Crumbs

Oh yeah. I should've read that more carefully. If you see something like (ex6) beside a horse's name, that penalty is already included in the listed weight.

Colonel Sanders

Crumbs wrote:

If you see something like (ex6) beside a horse's name, that penalty is already included in the listed weight.

Spot on. Horses often have to carry extra weight if they win after the weights for certain races have been framed. Early closing races like the Galway Plate and other big handicaps like the Grand National and the handicaps at the cheltenham festival are examples but also happens if a horse wins easily and the owner and/or trainer wants to run it before the handicapper reassesses it.

Yoursomelanger

This always confused me a bit so good to see a discussion on here about it. In relation to the example given at the start of this, is the weight that is given to the horse then based on the weight of the horse at the bottom end of the handicap - i.e. in the race in Newcastle quoted above the lowest rate horse was off 45 and carried 8-7. Since Potentiale was now rated 62, it means it had to carry 17lbs more than the lowest rated horse - is this a correct assessment ?

Also does anyone know how the class of handicap races in the UK compares with Irish races - i.e. is a class 4 race for horses rated between particular ratings the same way you get races here for say 45-70, etc ? If this is the case, does anyone know which class equates to which equivalent band here ?

Collie D

Cheers for that, Crumbs and Colonel Sanders...always been curious about that, had a general idea but you've cleared it up for me. I head off to the bookies better armed and ready for war

zuzu

yep.. ill second that. thanks for the replies.
just an FYI.. potentiale 5/4f was beat into second yest by a head but was unlucky to be beat!

masterK

Yoursomelanger wrote:

This always confused me a bit so good to see a discussion on here about it. In relation to the example given at the start of this, is the weight that is given to the horse then based on the weight of the horse at the bottom end of the handicap - i.e. in the race in Newcastle quoted above the lowest rate horse was off 45 and carried 8-7. Since Potentiale was now rated 62, it means it had to carry 17lbs more than the lowest rated horse - is this a correct assessment ?

Also does anyone know how the class of handicap races in the UK compares with Irish races - i.e. is a class 4 race for horses rated between particular ratings the same way you get races here for say 45-70, etc ? If this is the case, does anyone know which class equates to which equivalent band here ?

You're close on the first point, it's the other way around. If the top rated horse is rated 70 then he will carry 10-0 in flat races (11-12, or 12-0 over jumps), in your example Potentiale would then carrly 8lbs less at 11-4.

The classes in Irish racing are similar to the UK, I wish we'd introduce classes as the UK do to make it easier to understand, the UK classes are something like:

A = Pattern (Group 1, 2, 3) & Listed
B = Ratings Band 0-100+
C = 0-85
D = 0-75
E = 0-65
F = 0-55
H = 0-40

Therefore a 45-70 would be similar to a class D.

Crumbs

As masterK said, handicap races are framed by allocating the top-weight to the top-rated horse and working downwards but as an interesting aside, I heard Ted Walsh mention "upside down handicaps" during the RTE Galway coverage last week. Apparently they work as in Yoursomelanger's post - the lowest-rated horse is allocated the bottom-weight and the weights are worked upwards with the top-rated horses being balloted out. I don't know if they exist anymore but I hope not!

Yoursomelanger

thanks for the clarification guys..

one more question and I'm done then

when a horse is said to be out of the handicap, it means the horse is running in an event that he/she is not yet rated at that level, i.e. a 45 rated horse running in a 50-100 handicap ? Also, when you say a horse is ballotted out of a race - what exactly does that mean ? (sorry that's two questions :rolleyes: )

Bluetonic

Yoursomelanger wrote:

Also, when you say a horse is ballotted out of a race - what exactly does that mean ?

Here's the HRI rules on it, there a lot of them. It's mainly to reduce horse numbers to increase the safety of the race.

http://horseracingireland.ie/AssetLibrary/Files/HRI/Ownership/Balloting_Rule_253_May_2006.pdf

Crumbs

Yoursomelanger wrote:

when a horse is said to be out of the handicap, it means the horse is running in an event that he/she is not yet rated at that level, i.e. a 45 rated horse running in a 50-100 handicap ? Also, when you say a horse is ballotted out of a race - what exactly does that mean ? (sorry that's two questions :rolleyes: )

No, I don't think a 45 rated horse would be allowed to run in a 50-100 handicap at all. Basically, a handicap race is framed by the restrictions of the maximum and minimum weights and the number of horses allowed to run in the race.

All tracks/races have a safety limit on the maximum amount of runners allowed in a race so if the number of entrants for a race is greater than allowed, the lowest rated are usually eliminated. Sometimes there are other rules which are also used to decide on which horses get balloted out. These are normally designed so that a horse does not get repeatedly balloted out of all races it enters.

After the top rated horse is allocated the top weight in a race, all other weights are worked out relative to that. This list is called the "long handicap". However, sometimes the difference in ratings between the top horse and those at the bottom is so great that some of the lowest rated horses will have been allocated a weight that is below the minimum weight allowed. These then get bumped up to the minimum weight and are said to be racing from "out of the handicap" because they are carrying more weight than they should be relative to those that are in the handicap proper.

Colonel Sanders

Colonel Sanders wrote:

Spot on. Horses often have to carry extra weight if they win after the weights for certain races have been framed. Early closing races like the Galway Plate and other big handicaps like the Grand National and the handicaps at the cheltenham festival are examples but also happens if a horse wins easily and the owner and/or trainer wants to run it before the handicapper reassesses it.

Actually, just thinking. there are no penalties in the grand national!!! i.e. after the weights have been framed if a horse wins he doesn't get penalised (extra weight). You do for most other handicaps tho!