Consumers Rights - Do I have a leg to stand on?

Tellox

A couple of months back, I bought a laptop from Targa - namely, this one; http://www.targa.co.uk/index.jsp?SID=0&NAV=236&DOC=&PAGE=&PCAT=2&PROD=377&PTUBE=12&PARAMS=&PARAMS2=&SPCAREA=

Spec-wise, its a fantastic laptop. Unfortunately, it seems to be the material the laptop is made with that detracts from what would normally be a high price to pay for those specs.

The laptop overheats massively - hitting 66'C at one point. I've never been able to keep the laptop on my lap without some sort of hard surface - ala timber, for more than a couple of minutes. The heat quickly reaches a level where it would begin to burn you.

The heat wore the material off my USB mouse - leaving black scorch-like marks all over the bottom right hand side of my keyboard. Eventually, I thought something must be wrong here, so I rang their help line. I was told that as its a powerful laptop, its quite normal for it to reach high heats. Fair enough so.

The laptop continued to run at extreme heats for about a month or two, until eventually the speaker contacts blew, and it had to be sent off for repair. I explained the heat issue over the phone again as I was sending it off, and an agent told me it definitely should never reach heats that high.

And so, 14 days later, the laptop is returned. All seemed well with the world - apart from the heat, which remained at the same level. I made the mistake once of leaving the transformer (power adaptor) on my bed, without some sort of shielding (ala timber underneath) as I did with the laptop - I realised my mistake after I smelled burning a couple of minutes later.

The transformer scalds on touch - cant hold it for more than a few seconds without having to put it down fairly promptly. A friend who has the same laptop has the same issue with the heat - ended up having to send it off for repair due to the monitor contacts blowing. Waited over 2 months to get his back, as the agent on the phone told him quite bluntly; "We lost it".

And so, a week or so back, the speaker contacts blew again. So I gave Targa a ring, and asked for a refund on it. The reply was "That's not going to happen. We'll repair it 3 times but after that its up to you". With the levels of heat the laptop emits, it'll be in for repair every couple of weeks. So it'll end up being me paying for it to get repaired every month or two.

Should I give consumer rights a shout about this? Or count my losses?

Jo King

Consumer goods should be suitable for the purpose for which they are normally used. If it cannot be used in the manner in which such goods are normally used then it is off to the small claims court.

seamus

I've moved this to consumer issues. Although you know legal advice can't be given, I think "contact a solicitor" is overkill in this scenario.

Tellox

seamus wrote:

I've moved this to consumer issues. Although you know legal advice can't be given, I think "contact a solicitor" is overkill in this scenario.

Sorry, I did actually take a look for a consumer issues forum, but wasn't able to find it apologies again for the hassle

Nody

Sorry but a laptop may be warm but anything starting fires is NOT acceptable. Sounds like they skimped on the quality of the stuff (reminds me of the "brand" chargers some people bought in the UK which they opened and tested, scary stuff) and it can't handle the laptop requirements.

Small claims court after a written letter to Targa asking for a refund due to the problems outlined would be my suggestion.

Cabaal

Looking at the manual belong to that model laptop it recommends that you don't have the battery go above 60'C, sounds like a fault to me

Oryx

Yup def sounds faulty if its scorching things. Youll need to get back on to them specifically about the overheating, not the additional faults the heat is causing. If they cant fix it, you should be within your rights to request a replacement or refund. This thing of three repairs and your on your own is nonsense. Youre covered both by warranty and your statutory rights.

rubadub

Consumer goods should be suitable for the purpose for which they are normally used. If it cannot be used in the manner in which such goods are normally used then it is off to the small claims court.

Yes. There are legal requirments for heating of electrical goods. The guidelines vary, ie. something designed to be touched all the time is different than a surface, so the handle on a kettle should be a certain max tem, while the rest of the kettle can get hotter.

I hear part of the reason they are no longer called "laptops", is that it infers it can be seated on your lap, therefore must fall under a certain temp. Usually it is measured as a raised temp above ambeint. So if the temp is 30C, and the room is 25C, it can legally get to 55C.

I do not know the figures for laptops, but anything able to cause burns has got to be over the limit.

60C is about the limit you could touch plastic surfaces at.

Tellox

I got a reply to my email, in fairly poor English;

if a hardware problem causes the notebook to stop functioning or revent the notebook from working as it is intended to we offer to collect the notebok for repair. At the moment we have no intention of refunding the notebook as refund is not included in the warranty agreement for this notebook.


I had a look through the terms and conditions; I'm obliged to "cancel my contract", if I was to send the laptop off with the same issue twice, and it not being resolved. Well, worth a shot I suppose. All that kills me is the waiting for return.

chrislad

According to Citizens Advice, you are only required to accept one repair (within a reasonable time) before you are entitled to a replacment unit or repair (at your discretion)

Cabaal

chrislad wrote:

According to Citizens Advice, you are only required to accept one repair (within a reasonable time) before you are entitled to a replacment unit or repair (at your discretion)

Might be worth querying Citizens Advice in relation to does this apply to equipment purchased from another EU country as the laptop came from Germany if I'm not mistaken?

chrislad

Your rights are the same EU wide.

http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l32022.htm

Tellox

Thanks for all the advice
Does anyone have a contact number for citizens advice?

MarkR

Try mentioning product liability. It's a whole different kettle of fish to just a faulty notebook if it causes damage to something in the home, and is seemingly a substantial fire risk. If you feel unsafe leaving it unattended then clearly it's not suitable for use at home.

Place it on a sheet of paper somewhere safe and leave it on for a while. If the paper is scorched at the end of it then it's not safe to use. Hell, let it go past scorching and videotape it! If it goes up in flames during normal use it's clearly not your fault.

Note : this is kind of extreme and possibly unsafe, so unless you can do it somewhere safe don't do it!

rockdrummer

Their is no way in hell would I let this go. How could it be normal for a laptop to burn things. If you right them a letter, and they dont oblige, contact small claims court - simple as.

Its still under years warranty, so of course you are entitled to a refund / replacement....

gagalina

we had a similar problem with out targa laptop last year and overheating.

They told us it is not acutally a laptop, but a portable computer, so it is "ok" for it to get hot and burn your lap ;-)

it then started to shut down intermittandly so we had to send it for repairs.

laptop was repaired quite quickly but the courier had major problems remembering where they wrote down our address the 50 times we told them on the phone, so in the end it got lost..

Targa refunded us 90% of cost of pc (they deducted 1% per month of usage we had from the pc) - and not even a sorry or anything for us being without the pc for nearly 3 months...

Hope you have better luck!!

Gagalina

chrislad

They can't deduct 10%! That's totally illegal! You're entitled to the full amount back, regardless of the time of usage!

Tellox

gagalina wrote:

laptop was repaired quite quickly but the courier had major problems remembering where they wrote down our address the 50 times we told them on the phone, so in the end it got lost..

Targa refunded us 90% of cost of pc (they deducted 1% per month of usage we had from the pc) - and not even a sorry or anything for us being without the pc for nearly 3 months...

Hope you have better luck!!

Gagalina

Yeah, a friend of mine spent 2 months getting his laptop back, after an agent in Targa told him it was "lost". I sent on another email, exclaiming that its a health and safety hazard at this point - even with repair to the contacts, the overheating wont be solved. So the problem will keep happening ad infinitum, in any case. Also went on to quote;

chrislad wrote:

According to Citizens Advice, you are only required to accept one repair (within a reasonable time) before you are entitled to a replacment unit or repair (at your discretion)

and received the following reply;

As far as the manufacturer is concerned Euro[ean law, which applies to Ireland since Ireland is part of the European Union, is not bound to refund the device in this situation.

We therefor offer you a further repair which, according to european law and in terms with our terms of business and the warranty agreement which does not affect any statutory rights you might have with the point of retail for this device is within our right to demand before a refund is offered by the manufacturer, in this case TARGA GmbH.

If you feel that our warranty agreement is in violation with consumer rights I can only advise to contact consumer advise and inform yourself of your rights.



Suggestions?

majiktripp

Where did you buy the laptop? As far as I knew Targa only sold through Lidl, thats where I bought mine in early 2005,had a plague of problems with it and after several returns (and those bloody 2 month waits) I finally contacted Lidl and Targa directly through a formal letter, after which Targa agreed to refund Lidl, and Lidl in turn refunded me (€1500 cash back into my hand,which was the exact amount I paid for it and this was 10 months later)
So in essence did you buy direct or through a reseller?

chrislad

If you didn't buy it from Targa direct, they are correct, you are not entitled to a refund from them as you did not get it from them. If you did buy it from them, they are wrong.

http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_knowrights.html

Tellox

majiktripp wrote:

Where did you buy the laptop? As far as I knew Targa only sold through Lidl, thats where I bought mine in early 2005,had a plague of problems with it and after several returns (and those bloody 2 month waits) I finally contacted Lidl and Targa directly through a formal letter, after which Targa agreed to refund Lidl, and Lidl in turn refunded me (€1500 cash back into my hand,which was the exact amount I paid for it and this was 10 months later)
So in essence did you buy direct or through a reseller?

Bought it through lidl, still have the receipt somewhere

Sully

chrislad wrote:

According to Citizens Advice, you are only required to accept one repair (within a reasonable time) before you are entitled to a replacment unit or repair (at your discretion)

I see the reference to repair, but nothing specifically saying one repair..

majiktripp

I always thoought with electrical goods and the like the law was the manufacturer has 3 attempts to repair the item and after that they have to replace it?
To the OP, you just have to keep hassling Targa and you will eventually get places, although having said that yours is a heat problem which while being an issue , the laptop still *works* if you get me, its not a brick that you cant use so I dont know what stance Targa / Lidl would continue to take.

axer

majiktripp wrote:

I always thoought with electrical goods and the like the law was the manufacturer has 3 attempts to repair the item and after that they have to replace it?
To the OP, you just have to keep hassling Targa and you will eventually get places, although having said that yours is a heat problem which while being an issue , the laptop still *works* if you get me, its not a brick that you cant use so I dont know what stance Targa / Lidl would continue to take.

It is about what is reasonable as there is no law stating how many repairs one should accept from what I know. It would be reasonable to expect that the same problem would not happen again after a repair thus if it does happen again then you should have the right to say enough is enough and get a refund or partial refund.

The seller is allowed to refund a percentage of the original purchase price if the unit has been used for a while because if the buyer does not report the problem straight away or if a problem is not reported within a short while after purchasing (2/3/4 weeks or so) then the buyer is deemed to have accepted the goods and thus is using them so they have consumed some of the product.

chrislad

axer wrote:

It is about what is reasonable as there is no law stating how many repairs one should accept from what I know. It would be reasonable to expect that the same problem would not happen again after a repair thus if it does happen again then you should have the right to say enough is enough and get a refund or partial refund.

The seller is allowed to refund a percentage of the original purchase price if the unit has been used for a while because if the buyer does not report the problem straight away or if a problem is not reported within a short while after purchasing (2/3/4 weeks or so) then the buyer is deemed to have accepted the goods and thus is using them so they have consumed some of the product.

I believe that timeframe is actually 6 months, according to the following link.

http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l32022.htm

Any lack of conformity becoming apparent within six months of delivery will be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery, unless:

* proof to the contrary is furnished;
* this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.

When a lack of conformity is notified to the seller, the consumer will be entitled to ask:

* for the goods to be repaired or replaced free of charge within a reasonable period and without major inconvenience to the consumer;
* for an appropriate reduction to be made to the price, or for the contract to be rescinded, if repair or replacement is impossible or disproportionate, or if the seller has not remedied the shortcoming within a reasonable period or without major inconvenience to the consumer.

As Targa are not the seller here though, the OP doesn't have any cause for complaint with them. His dealings should be with Lidl.

Vikings

I feel your pain, OP. I went through a very similar situation involving an Advent laptop which I bought from PC World.

Laptop would constantly overheat forcing the machine itself to shut down after minimal periods of use, could do nothing on it basically. They ended up sending a courier to pick it up approximately 4-5 times to have it 'repaired' which pretty much meant they opened it up and blew in it to clear the dust!

Eventually they collected it and we had them write it off and were sent vouchers to get a new laptop, so ended up with a decent spec'd Sony Vaio far superior to the Advent laptop and had a bit of change left over.

So keep at them and you never know, persistance pays off in these cases!