definition of rape

LegacyUser

Hi all,

new to this forum, but there is something i have been struggling with for a while and maybe some one can help. I really do not know where to start. So i'll start at the beginning, i was in a borderline abusive relationship. the abuse was not exactly physical, some pushing and shoving during arguements there was alot of mental abuse also, simple stuff like he objected to my going out with friends and speaking to other guys, the clothes i wore and well i get the picture. However in the course of the relationship there was a incident where my then boyfriend proceed to have sex with me even though i had said no. Now we had been fooling around prior to this and i did end up pushing him off me. His response was he thought that i was playing around and didnt really mean no. Eventually i got myself together and got out of the relationship. It has been playing on my mind these last years. My definition of rape has always been someone who has sex with you against your will, though i am confused as to whether i am over-reacting and that it was as he professed simply a case miss-communication. Its been playing on my mind, though prehaps i am just being a drama queen. I havent spoken about this to anyone..... far too humilated at my lack of judgement to really confess all. Also i have no desire to get revenge or make him pay. I just want to put it to bed for myself.

Thanks

matt-dublin

unfortunatly imo, you're stuck between a rock and a hard place there, sounds like it could be miscommunication, also sounds like he's a total asshole! But because you were fooling around before, it would be concieved as more of a playful "no" than anything unless you followed it up with a more assertive and warning objection.

I wouldn't try and dwell on it though, it will only wreak havoc on your mind.

If you were'nt more assertive and he didn't force himself on you, or force penetration, i would say it was more miscommunication.

On the other hand if you were squirming, and trying to stop penetration and trying to push him off, it would be classified as rape.

spurious

You said no.

**edit - Sorry that went before I was finished.

The fact that he was emotionally abuse too would tend to remove any benefit of the doubt for him.

How could it be miscommunication? You said no but really meant yes?

togster

It could be miscommunication. I know it has happened to me in the past when you are fooling around with a girl and it becomes rough and she likes it that way.

ladylorenzo

Once you said no, you withdrew consent - whether there was consensual 'fooling about' before that or not. Sexual intercourse without consent = Rape.

Mis-communication my ass. If you say no, then it is his responsibility to establish whether you mean it or not before he proceeds to have sex with you....not afterwards.

You are not over-reacting. The difficulty however, is proving it. From the sounds of your post though, it's not that you want to take it any further, you just want it clear in your own mind. IMO, what you have described is rape and maybe once that's clear in your head, you can begin to deal with it and move on.

Talliesin

definition wrote:

His response was he thought that i was playing around and didnt really mean no.

"No" is a really simple word. On average it's the third word we learn as a child, so it's doesn't really leave a lot of room for mis-communication.

Now sure, some people like playing at saying no and not really meaning it, but that isn't something anyone can just assume. If you do like playing those games then things can get complicated; once you've said "I like it when I say no but you keep going anyway" then both people (especially the one that's pretending to ignore the "no") have to be very careful.

Until then, you don't get to "think she was playing around" until it's being made crystal clear.

At most he wanted to think you were "playing around" and he saw what he wanted as a lot more important than what was actually going on.

Toddlers know what the word "no" means. So did he.

milkerman

No means No as a rule. However, with a gob****e you sometimes have to folow it up with ' Are you deaf you cretin, I said NO'. Did you repeat your 'No' in a more assertive way?
I don't know either of you or what went on between you so cannot answer your question definitively.
I should point out that men are not the only ones who don't take 'No' as an answer if they want something badly enough.
Stay away from gob****es like this guy in future, after all you should enjoy time with a partner not suffer from it.

PeakOutput

no means no but i dont think you can call your ex a rapist after this one incident tbh.

sure he is a dickhead probably but i would not consider him a rapist just from the story you have told us here

LegacyUser

milkerman wrote:

No means No as a rule. However, with a gob****e you sometimes have to folow it up with ' Are you deaf you cretin, I said NO'. Did you repeat your 'No' in a more assertive way?
I don't know either of you or what went on between you so cannot answer your question definitively.

Yes i did repeat no, its hard to recall how assertive i was, i do remember feeling very shocked and my initial reaction was to freeze. When i copped on to the fact that he was not going to stop and got over the shock i forcibly removed him from me. It took a good bit of struggling to do so.

PeakOutput wrote:

i dont think you can call your ex a rapist after this one incident tbh

Its not that i am calling him a rapist but this one incident has affected me. I developed a huge phobia of being touched, even something small, a hug from family members for example had me squirming. 8 years on, if i get upset i cant stand the thought of anyone touching me. I am also a lot more comfortable in less sexually demanding relationships. With my current partner, we only have sex when i initiate it. Its not that i dont enjoy sex (I do) but I find it difficult to relax when he initiates it.

The nature of the relationship was in my mind abusive and controlling. The next man i went out with was also abusive and controlling. I am having difficulties trusting my current partner and I am finding myself more and more doubting my judgement. I guess i dont know how to move on and let it go.

Marksie

definition wrote:

Its not that i am calling him a rapist but this one incident has affected me. I developed a huge phobia of being touched, even something small, a hug from family members for example had me squirming. 8 years on, if i get upset i cant stand the thought of anyone touching me. I am also a lot more comfortable in less sexually demanding relationships. With my current partner, we only have sex when i initiate it. Its not that i dont enjoy sex (I do) but I find it difficult to relax when he initiates it.

The nature of the relationship was in my mind abusive and controlling. The next man i went out with was also abusive and controlling. I am having difficulties trusting my current partner and I am finding myself more and more doubting my judgement. I guess i dont know how to move on and let it go.

Have you talked to your partner about this? Have you sought guidance on how to put these intimacy issues behind you?

For they are still seriously affecting your life

IMO that is more important at the moment than discussing definitions. If you can go back and resolve what you have juts described about, you will be able to move on, and it will all be placed in context.

regards
mark

Talliesin

PeakOutput wrote:

no means no but i dont think you can call your ex a rapist after this one incident

How many rapes does he have to commit before he's a rapist?

I don't think acknowledging that this rapist scumbag is a rapist is the important thing though, so much as the incident. It can be important to "own" an incident like this before one can deal with it.

PeakOutput

Talliesin wrote:

How many rapes does he have to commit before he's a rapist?

well i will rephrase and say that i do not believe the op was raped , at least in the "traditional" sense im not saying what happened was completely correct and above bored or even remotely so but i dont think that what sounds like maybe 60 secs of misunderstanding in a long term relationship can be constituted as rape.

also to get even more technical the defence of honest mistake can be used in court as far as i know and as the op says herself it is possible it was a simple misunderstanding. there is nothing to suggest that the guy said to himself "i dont care that she dosnt want to have sex with me im going to rape her instead"

this does not take away from the fact that it has clearly traumatised the op along with the general crap and abuse she had to put up with from this guy and i agree with marksie when he says that trying to discuss definitions at this stage is not what is important but her seeking help to help her through it is.

LegacyUser

Marksie wrote:

Have you talked to your partner about this? Have you sought guidance on how to put these intimacy issues behind you?

For they are still seriously affecting your life

IMO that is more important at the moment than discussing definitions. If you can go back and resolve what you have juts described about, you will be able to move on, and it will all be placed in context.

regards
mark

yes in that we have spoke about it (at least the fact that i have intimacy issues) and we are working through it, its two steps forward one step back at the moment.
I have been to see two counsellors, the first one was not great and the second one was not much better. I have issues with being vunerable in front of people so after six months of sitting there talking about everything except for the reason i decided to go for counselling he decided that i didnt really need to go back.

As to why i was wanted to define the incident, so i can place it in context and prehaps one day even speak about it with someone in real-life. rather than well it wasnt rape exactly but then it was not consenual either but then again maybe its all in my head.

at the time it felt like it was going on forever but it lasted i'd say maybe 5mins or so. I would love to put all this behind me but i dont know how. When it comes to dealing with it i really just dont know where to begin

PeakOutput

op just so that everyone is on the same page here are we right to assume that penetration actually took place and took place forcibly or did it not get that far?

maybe thats why i am differing slightly to the other replies as i am not automatically assuming it did happen.


edit;

definition wrote:

at the time it felt like it was going on forever but it lasted i'd say maybe 5mins or so. I would love to put all this behind me but i dont know how. When it comes to dealing with it i really just dont know where to begin

didnt read that bit i assume penetration did happen in that period of time then i think talking through the situation in detail with a professional would be the next step if you havent done it already

claire-g

In my opinion "miscommunication" is a cop out. An excuse for doing something that should not have been done. If you said no you said no, it doesnt matter if he thinks you meant yes.

I think you know the answer to your own question and in my opinion you were raped and abused. I think this might be extremely hard to accept and you may need some time to digest it and come to terms with it. It may trigger all sorts of emotions and you may or may not be able to deal with these on your own. I suggest you seek support from the rape crisis centres perhaps, they may be able to help you to deal with some of the issues that may arise from this.

I'm sorry this haopoened to you, it was not your fault.

Jack B. Badd

PeakOutput wrote:

there is nothing to suggest that the guy said to himself "i dont care that she dosnt want to have sex with me im going to rape her instead"

I wasn't aware that the motivation behind a crime like rape is the important thing. I was under the impression that a crime is a crime regardless of the intent behind it.
In any case, no is no. It's rather stupid of any man (or woman, I guess) to claim that they thought no was actually yes when it comes to sexual intercourse, in the current social climate. They can, of course, claim this if they so wish but they'll have to deal with the consequences...in these cases being labeled a rapist and/or being punished for their crime.

LegacyUser

PeakOutput wrote:

op just so that everyone is on the same page here are we right to assume that penetration actually took place and took place forcibly or did it not get that far?

Yes penetration did take place forcibly (in that i struggled) lasted a few minutes. So it was not an in and out thing.

The reason why i never totally accepted the mis-communication agrument is that, of course miscommunications and accidents happen, but there was never an apology or anything along those lines.

Thanks for the responses everyone, you have certainly all given me alot of stuff to think about.

PeakOutput

Jack B. Badd wrote:

I wasn't aware that the motivation behind a crime like rape is the important thing. I was under the impression that a crime is a crime regardless of the intent behind it.
In any case, no is no. It's rather stupid of any man (or woman, I guess) to claim that they thought no was actually yes when it comes to sexual intercourse, in the current social climate. They can, of course, claim this if they so wish but they'll have to deal with the consequences...in these cases being labeled a rapist and/or being punished for their crime.

i think thats very simplistic imo especially when the people are in a relationship in the first place either way what happened has been seriously detremental(sp?) to the op and i hope she follows the advice the other posters have given her and seeks more help

carnival_joe

Yes thats rape, and just because you were with him doesn't make it less so. Most rape is carried out by someone we know, and trust. Whether you do something or not is up to you, but try and get your own head sorted. It will be much better for you in the long run, and don't worry, this wasn't your fault. You were with a bully, and it spilled from mental to sexual abuse. For so many years people have tried to get recognition for different forms of abuse and rape. To still be stuck with the "its not really rape becasue you were dating" mindset is very disturbing and distressing.

This is an issue you will carry with you for a long time, probably forever. I hope you take the time to work through this traumatic experience,

best of luck, and if you want to talk PM me.

jimmycrackcorm

OP, did you consider it rape at the time?

Before anyone starts flaming and shouting that no means no - I'm just curious as to the distinction between realizing immediately or in the aftermath.

Bottle_of_Smoke

definition wrote:

Yes i did repeat no, its hard to recall how assertive i was, i do remember feeling very shocked and my initial reaction was to freeze. When i copped on to the fact that he was not going to stop and got over the shock i forcibly removed him from me. It took a good bit of struggling to do so.

Yes I think this was rape. From your first post I was thinking "ah well maybe he didn't realise" but if you repeated yourself it couldn't be anything but. When you stopped it he could have apologised & said he didn't realise but the fact that you struggled means he was raping you as far as I'm concerned.

Philush

once you said no and he kept going,its rape,simple as,thats the law.report the bastard,and make sure he gets a beating

Nevyn

Philush read the charter for this forum, advocating violence will get you banned.

StormWarrior

definition wrote:

Yes penetration did take place forcibly (in that i struggled) lasted a few minutes. So it was not an in and out thing.

You were definitely raped, and if it went on for several minutes with you struggling all the way through, then he knew exactly what he was doing.

milkerman

Definition, you have my sympathy. You are the victim of rape.
You said No.
You repeated it.
You struggled.
Penetration against your will happened.
The shock you describe happens to every living creature when under attack. It can take a few seconds or even minutes to react defensively.
Dont have any easy quick remedies for you though, but wish you the best.

LegacyUser

Thanks again people. With respect to the question whether it registered at the time or not, too be honest part of the trouble with abusive relationships is that we get very good at normalising and rationalizing the abuse. But it did register that it was not okay at the time, prehaps not to the extent as when i have extracted myself from the relationship.
Either way though i will take marksie advice and get some help dealing with my intimacy issues, prehaps then i will be able to move on.

sjaakie

in this relationship there were a few things standing out to you, amongst them that "rape" issue. if you dont deal with them proparly in your mind it will hunt you for years to come.
most definitly i advise you councelling over this, it will do the world of good to you .

best of luck

arybvtcw0eolkf

Would it help you to consider it wasn't rape, or does the word terrify you and prevent you admitting it to yourself that it was rape?.

This wa*ker sounds like the same kind of asshole who beats up his partner, then apologises for his actions afterwards and the wife/GF finds reason or excuse for the abusers behaviour.

Can I give my experience as a man, and guys would laugh if I told them.

I was with a girl along time ago, we'd no condoms and I refused to have sex without them. We were really heavy into fourplay etc (I should say this was a one night stand). Without getting too graphic about it, she was straddling me and sat down on me (putting my dick in her). I snapped and pushed her away, told her if I'd done that it would have been rape etc.

I didn't consider I was 'raped' but dammit was I pissed off at her, still am when I think about it. Maybe you should just consider it along the same lines as I. Get pissed off at the wanker and put it down to a terrible experience.

So is it rape every time you say "NO", depending on the circumstances I don't think so.

PeakOutput

Mairt wrote:

I didn't consider I was 'raped' but dammit was I pissed off at her, still am when I think about it. Maybe you should just consider it along the same lines as I. Get pissed off at the wanker and put it down to a terrible experience.

So is it rape every time you say "NO", depending on the circumstances I don't think so.

that would kinda be my attitude to it aswell but the circumstances would want to be pretty extreme for it not to be. i dont think this applies to the op though

i agree with you aswell you would either be in jail or have a very muddied name if you had of been the one to chance your arm and "slip it in"

Marksie

definition wrote:

Thanks again people. With respect to the question whether it registered at the time or not, too be honest part of the trouble with abusive relationships is that we get very good at normalising and rationalizing the abuse. But it did register that it was not okay at the time, prehaps not to the extent as when i have extracted myself from the relationship..

Or burying it under layers of defense mechanisms. Nice and quiet until you are put in a situation where the defense mechanisms dont work then you get the reactions you described OP.

definition wrote:

Either way though i will take marksie advice and get some help dealing with my intimacy issues, prehaps then i will be able to move on.

I truly hope that it works OP. But do include your B/f along every step of this. If issues and feelings arise, by fully including him he will be there for you. All sorts of emotions can be dredged up when these issues are becoming resolved if you have your fella included all along the process, then he will be able to understand that what you are going through isnt directed at him personally.

nice1franko

Before I get banned, shot, hanged (or all three).... I'm not sticking up for the bloke. He sounds like an arséhole.

I don't think that was rape at all. As far as I can gather:

1) yous were messing around
2) you said no
3) he kept going
4) you pushed him off
5) that was the end of it

If I go to bed cos I'm in work in the morn and my missus stays up and has a glass of wine or something then she comes to bed and the same thing could - and sometimes does - happen!

Also, she's given me a slap once (kind of deserved it because I said something a bit mean)... but could I not have her up for assault??

I know there's rape in the context of a relationship but you could (and did)make him stop.

If I were you OP, I'd cut the dead wood loose and move on.

edit - I skipped the post were u said penetration took place. disregard my 2 cents worth and best of luck in getting over this.

youcancallmeal adf

First off I'd suggest getting counselling, it can have a massively positive effect on anyone, especially someone who has been through something like that.

Secondly, you only *ever* not stop when someone says "No" if you've agreed beforehand...

If you haven't agreed and the person is struggling plus saying no then its pretty obvious what is going on and the guy should spend some time in jail for it.

metrovelvet

Or in the case of abusive relationships -emotional or physical- you become afraid to assert your will because the price is too high, there is an unspoken but chronic punishment awaiting you, whether by hand, mouth, hostile silences, any variety of cruelties...

Whatever you want to classify this incident as, and how you want to frame or reframe it, it articulates the entire dynamic of your relationship imo. Perhaps you could use it as a paradigm by which to explore what has a whole during the relationship happened to you and what you "allowed" [and I use that term skeptically] to happen to you.

Its not a pleasant excersize but perhaps a productive one - to find growth from something ugly?

The Corinthian

Definition, according to your account it would appear to be rape as it satisfies the condition of lack of consent which essentially defines rape. Given this there are other factors to take into account, such as perception and miscommunication, so while I do think it was rape, it may not have been as clear cut as some would believe.

The definition of rape does raise some interesting scenarios though. There was a case in the UK, for example, of a man accused of rape because the woman in question had withdrawn consent after sex, i.e. she sobered up. If nothing else it does beg the question of why we think it is unacceptable for people to drive if their judgment is impaired, but perfectly acceptable for them to have sex.

Another scenario is where consent is given then withdrawn during sex. Even if the man then stops, is it still rape? Or if he takes a few seconds to stop is that moment between the withdrawal of consent and the termination of the act rape?

And finally there's the question of consent under duress. Consent has been given, but is psychological duress any less than its physical counterpart?

It's a complex issue, but if we approached it from a purely legal angle, we most likely would need to sign a disclaimer every time we were about to have a shag. You could get packets of three disclaimers from vending machines in nightclubs then. Durex would love that.

PeakOutput

good post there corinthian the only bit i feel the need to comment on is the withdrawing of consent afterwards. if that girls who brought the case in england did that and it was obvious she did that she should of been the one to go to jail. if she got away with accusing him of something so serious just because she had a hang over its a disgrace.


edit; iv had the odd one night stand and when you think of the situations you put yourself in(not talking about being with a girl who is falling over drunk iv never and will never do that) it would be so easy for your one night stand to turn around and say you raped her and it would be taken seriously.

chump

OP, to what end are you agonising over this?

Do you foresee that you will press charges over this and secure a conviction?

If not, why agonise over whether it was 'rape' or not?
Ultimately it is one part the entire collection of incidents of abuse that you say your suffered in the relationship.

For this you no doubt need some counseling - but ultimately it should be your goal to get over this, not to wallow on the details.

impr0v

It seems the issue has been, for all intensive purposes, resolved, but for the sake of interest the legal definition of rape is set out in section 2 of the criminal law (rape) act 1981.

A man commits rape if-
a) he has sexual intercourse with a woman who at the time of the intercourse does not consent to it, and
b) at that time he knows that she does not consent to the intercourse or he is reckless as to whether she does or does not consent to it..

a) refers to the actus reus, or guilty act of the offense, while b) refers to the guilty mind, or mens rea element. Generally in the criminal law the two elements have to be present at the same time for a man to be guilty (exception is crimes of strict liability), therefore if the man had an honestly held belief that consent was present, he is not guilty of rape. It does not have to be a reasonable belief, but it has to be honestly held.

The slightest penetration can constitute rape; there does not have to be ejaculation, the act begins with penetration and ends with withdrawal. If the consent is present when penetration takes place, and is withdrawn during the act, the man is guilty of rape if he does not withdraw immediately (the withdrawal of consent has to be communicated, or become obvious to him).

It should be noted that the offense is gender specific, and refers to any male person, over seven years of age, having non-consensual sex with a woman. Also, it refers to natural intercourse only, i.e. penile penetration of the vagina, objects and buggery are covered by different offenses.

A person can lack the capacity to consent, due to intoxication, being asleep/unconscious, mentally impaired, etc. and in these cases there is no real or valid consent.

There was formerly a marital exemption which meant that there was no such thing legally as a man raping his wife, however this was abolished in 1990.

In practical terms, rape is notoriously difficult to obtain a conviction for, mainly due to evidentiary issues. In simplistic terms, as there are usually no witnesses to the more borderline of cases, it often comes down to one person's word against another as to what exactly occurred.

LegacyUser

'

nice1franko wrote:

1) yous were messing around

I seen your edit and i do get what you were saying, and this is something i just wanted to answer. I was 17, now when i was 17 (all those many years ago) it was very common to fool around with someone without it proceeding to full sex.

chump wrote:

For this you no doubt need some counseling - but ultimately it should be your goal to get over this, not to wallow on the details.

My difficulty with this is that once i ended the relationship 2 years later i was a shadow of my former self. I experienced a large amount of self-doubt and i had no self-confidence and at times i doubt how accurately i recall the events during that time. I had no friends left and no support. I had to rebuild my life back up from scratch. I dont dwell on it often, maybe once a year around this time it hits me. I guess i thought if i got a handle on the details it wouldnt be so bad, though then again i could be wrong.

I see what marksie is saying and i am doing my best to open up about it. I explained this incident to my bf last night, his response was bland. I felt like he thought it was no big deal. Though maybe its the way i explained it or maybe it was alot to expect him to deal with it on the spot.'

The Corinthian

PeakOutput wrote:

good post there corinthian the only bit i feel the need to comment on is the withdrawing of consent afterwards. if that girls who brought the case in england did that and it was obvious she did that she should of been the one to go to jail. if she got away with accusing him of something so serious just because she had a hang over its a disgrace.

I wasn't making any judgment on whether something is or is not rape in any of the circumstances I cited, and would agree with you on the first one. I was primarily using those as examples of the complexity of what can be defined as rape.

Marksie

definition wrote:

'
I explained this incident to my bf last night, his response was bland. I felt like he thought it was no big deal. Though maybe its the way i explained it or maybe it was alot to expect him to deal with it on the spot.'

Maybe he needs time to assimilate it, maybe he needs time to understand. Maybe he will come back to you about it. But then again maybe he wont.

Did you say how serious this was to you and that you are going planning to go to counselling or seeking advice?

If he doesn't then just keep him in the loop OP. In the end the really important thing is your own development/healing

Best of luck

LegacyUser

Marksie wrote:

Did you say how serious this was to you and that you are going planning to go to counselling or seeking advice?

If he doesn't then just keep him in the loop OP. In the end the really important thing is your own development/healing

Best of luck

Thanks, no honestly just telling him about it was a big step. I did however explain that it was part of the reason for my intimacy issues and that i am working through them at the moment. It felt oddly like i was talking about someone else, clear, unemotional, concise and to the point.

Someone suggested exploring the relationship and how it got to the stage that it did. I have done this previously and with a good deal of work have come to terms with alot of it.

I still have an underlying fear that it will happen again. Would be abusers it seems are very very good manipulators and I am afraid that in spite of everything i wont see it coming (maybe this time i wont be strong enough to get out) or that as a result of this I will shut people who love and care about me out of my life.