Low stack on FT.

connie147

O.K., lost a decisive pot just prior to the final table and consequently finished up 2nd shortest stack at the final table. Blinds are 1,500-3000 and Im in the bb with 17,000. (Its an online tourney,400 next out(7 left) with 4k for the winner.)
I'm really looking to try and finish in the top two cause thats where the decent money is. Theres a monster chip leader with 180k, next nearest has about 60k. I know if I double through once I'm better than most of the players left in the tourney as a lot of them are known to me and I'd be back in the tourney with a serious shout.

The big chip leader is in the c/o to my bb and he raises to 8k.(now I've been on his table with about an hour and he has been very aggressive with his chips, specially around the bubble time and I thought he played quite well. He raised my blind twice around the bubble time and I responded by pushing all-in over his head and he put down both times. After that, when he raised my blind,he pushed all-in to deny me the move. That was much earlier and once the bubble broke, he went back to normal raises again.

I'm sitting in the BB with Ks-10s, I know if I push he's gonna call. What happened this time isnt really that important, the question is can I afford to lose this blind out of my 17k or is a stand here the only way.

P.S. blinds are 12mins with 10min left at this level.

jimmii

To make a decent steal your going to need some pretty tight players on the blinds with smallish stacks, you'll also need the big stack out of the hand too as he's going to look you up with a pretty wide range of hands so finding the right spot probably won't be too easy. With the aggressive way he is playing I think KTs is more than enough to shove from the BB with less than 6BBs.

Fatboydim

I think I'd call and push on the flop no matter what comes. His range is enormous and he's going to continue to put pressure on you. He'll most likely call if you go all in pre flop as you say... There is a small chance if he misses the flop completely that he might fold.

jimmii

Yeh its a pretty good spot for a stop and go.

LuckyLloyd

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Shadowless

Shove. Gotta get your gamboool on if your gonna go anywhere.
One of the threads I started last month informed me that a stop and go with half a pot-size bet behind is a bad idea so I gotta go with boardsie wisdom above lens here!

Edited because it looked messy.

Fatboydim

Shadowless wrote:

Shove. Gotta get your gamboool on if your gonna go anywhere.
One of the threads I started last month informed me that a stop and go with half a pot-size bet behind is a bad idea
so I gotta go with boardsie wisdom above lens here!

That's interesting... What was the thinking behind that then?

It seems very clear here that the chip leader is forcing Connie to commit to the hand or fold. I suppose it could be argued that it's +EV to push because you're either going to double or bubble.

I'll have to look up the thread

Captain Tom

Fatboydim wrote:

That's interesting... What was the thinking behind that then?

i dont remember the thread but probably because you have almost no fold equity with a half psb left in your stack. especially considering the fact that stop'n'gos are so easily identifiable.

poorbarman

Im in the push camp here.If he is a good player the stop & go definately wont work here.It might get through against a weak player but not an agg. chip leader who knows what he is doing.Chuck the lot in you are most likely in front and as you say you want to finish in top two for the big money.BTW no antes in this right?

poorbarman

Fatboydim wrote:

I think I'd call and push on the flop no matter what comes. His range is enormous and he's going to continue to put pressure on you. He'll most likely call if you go all in pre flop as you say... There is a small chance if he misses the flop completely that he might fold.

From what connie says this guy will not fold to a stop & go.JUst chuck them in...

TommyGunne

Horrible situation.

You cannot really afford to lose 3k here and a further 1.5k next hand. Yet you are being forced to gamble for your stack with mediocre holding, as he is guaranteed to call here, getting 2/1. Any stats on villain would be vital. Hand needs to be put through ICM for closest to correct answer here though.

You do need to gamble it up soon, but you have only the equity your cards allow you here, which is most likely less than 50%, as you have no fold equity.

This must be compared to open-push of 4.5bb on your button or soon after, obviously providing no action into you, bar the miracle of a hand cropping up in the meantime that warrants pushing against another raiser. Here you will have fold equity(albeit small), plus your own hand equity.

All depends how the players to your left play, ie how much respect they will give to a 4.5bb push from button/CO/hijack.

Long rambling post with my own(probably flawed) conclusion that this is a hand to flip a coin over your actions!

connie147

TommyGunne wrote:

Horrible situation.

You cannot really afford to lose 3k here and a further 1.5k next hand. Yet you are being forced to gamble for your stack with mediocre holding, as he is guaranteed to call here, getting 2/1. Any stats on villain would be vital. Hand needs to be put through ICM for closest to correct answer here though.

You do need to gamble it up soon, but you have only the equity your cards allow you here, which is most likely less than 50%, as you have no fold equity.

This must be compared to open-push of 4.5bb on your button or soon after, obviously providing no action into you, bar the miracle of a hand cropping up in the meantime that warrants pushing against another raiser. Here you will have fold equity(albeit small), plus your own hand equity.

All depends how the players to your left play, ie how much respect they will give to a 4.5bb push from button/CO/hijack.

Long rambling post with my own(probably flawed) conclusion that this is a hand to flip a coin over your actions!

Yeah, kinda sums up my thoughts on it. In the actual hand, I pushed, he called with 88 and his hand was good. I was quite happy to see myself with 2 overcards but as I said, the result of that particular hand was of no consequence. I just felt I was behind ( cause I knew that he knew that I was pushing over him and he wasnt raising my blind with ****e) and the question is even though Im pretty sure Im behind to a pair or an ace holding, is it still right to put the chips in here with only 5.5 bb's left and one of them already invested in the pot?.

LuckyLloyd

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mrflash

The only problem here is that he is a huge stack, and regardless of cards, the big stack seems to win showdowns more often than not and also outdraws the short stack more often than is reasonable. While you were extremely short stacked, i would probably have preferred to hold on to what i had left and push into any other player who might not want to call the 12-14k you have left.. This might sound a bit crazy but in a live game i would definitely have taken the stand but online its different, i don't care what anyone says, there is some sort of rigging involved, and one of the most obvious signs of this is when a big stack takes on a short stack. This applies across the board on every site i have played, not just full tilt and stars. Just before i posted this i was multi-tabling on stars, i had ak and was shortstacked and shoved on small blind into big stack and he calls with k4 and wins, meanwhile on another table i had 44 and shortstack shoves into me, i call, he shows jj and i hit a 4.
I meant to add that this is a regular occurrence in mtt's and stt's, not ring games.

phantom_lord

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hitman Actual

We're back in 2004 again, I see.

phantom_lord

I meant to add that this is a regular occurrence in mtt's and stt's, not ring games.

yeah, the ring games are rigged in favour of the shortstacks.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

mdwexford

^lol etc

Cuban Son

mrflash wrote:

The only problem here is that he is a huge stack, and regardless of cards, the big stack seems to win showdowns more often than not and also outdraws the short stack more often than is reasonable. While you were extremely short stacked, i would probably have preferred to hold on to what i had left and push into any other player who might not want to call the 12-14k you have left.. This might sound a bit crazy but in a live game i would definitely have taken the stand but online its different, i don't care what anyone says, there is some sort of rigging involved, and one of the most obvious signs of this is when a big stack takes on a short stack. This applies across the board on every site i have played, not just full tilt and stars. Just before i posted this i was multi-tabling on stars, i had ak and was shortstacked and shoved on small blind into big stack and he calls with k4 and wins, meanwhile on another table i had 44 and shortstack shoves into me, i call, he shows jj and i hit a 4.
I meant to add that this is a regular occurrence in mtt's and stt's, not ring games.

Your ideas intrigue me....... I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

DeadParrot

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
lol sillypostaments

smurph

mrflash wrote:

The only problem here is that he is a huge stack, and regardless of cards, the big stack seems to win showdowns more often than not and also outdraws the short stack more often than is reasonable. While you were extremely short stacked, i would probably have preferred to hold on to what i had left and push into any other player who might not want to call the 12-14k you have left.. This might sound a bit crazy but in a live game i would definitely have taken the stand but online its different, i don't care what anyone says, there is some sort of rigging involved, and one of the most obvious signs of this is when a big stack takes on a short stack. This applies across the board on every site i have played, not just full tilt and stars. Just before i posted this i was multi-tabling on stars, i had ak and was shortstacked and shoved on small blind into big stack and he calls with k4 and wins, meanwhile on another table i had 44 and shortstack shoves into me, i call, he shows jj and i hit a 4.
I meant to add that this is a regular occurrence in mtt's and stt's, not ring games.

Just a Question mrFlash,
If your fully convinced that Online poker is rigged, then why oh Why are you fuc*kin well playing online........???????? :mad: :mad:
Please go away...... its getting annoying at this stage.:mad: :mad:

mewso

Connie I think a good player with plenty of chips will often raise with only slightly better than average hands into shorties. I know I do. Any hand that figures to be good against a random hand is worth using to put pressure on the short stack. For me you did the right thing. Of course you have to bear in mind that luck will be on the big stacks side