online tournament hand

nicnicnic

from tonights betfair 50k 14 players left average approx 55k

in top 4 in chips with 90k

blinds 2k/4k 200 ante

Raise from 2nd UTG to 12k with AhJx


BB calls playing 60k total


flop Qh 10h 4h

BB checks

Captain Tom

there's ~25k in the pot and he's only got 48k left. bet/call shove.

cardshark202

Captain Tom wrote:

there's ~25k in the pot and he's only got 48k left. bet/call shove.

.

The_Chopper

I'd bet about 15k here trying to induce a shove.

Then I'd be more than happy getting all my chips in here

connie147

Id bet the pot (20k-25k) so he knows Im calling a shove.Id rather take it down now if possible.

Flushdraw

Everyone is saying bet and call a shove. Why is this is superior to just shoving ourselves? If he has the Q, we are about a 55% favourite so are we happy to race here?

The_Chopper

We're happy to race here definately and want action with this hand.

That's why I would bet small to induce the bluff raise. I want it to look weak and give him rope to hang himself. We'd love to get it in here against KQ, J10, JQ, A10, all hands that you might get called with.

If we shove here he might fold all the above hands and we don't want that. Also if we shove his range for putting all his chips in the middle goes down to over pair, set, or flush. Best case maybe KhQx.

Basically a shove only gets called by hands we don't want to see - whereas a weak bet might get shoved on by hands we want to be against

dannydiamond

shove shove shove then shove again

dK1NG

The_Chopper wrote:

We're happy to race here definately and want action with this hand.

That's why I would bet small to induce the bluff raise. I want it to look weak and give him rope to hang himself. We'd love to get it in here against KQ, J10, JQ, A10, all hands that you might get called with.

If we shove here he might fold all the above hands and we don't want that. Also if we shove his range for putting all his chips in the middle goes down to over pair, set, or flush. Best case maybe KhQx.

Basically a shove only gets called by hands we don't want to see - whereas a weak bet might get shoved on by hands we want to be against

Just out of curiousity, would it be wrong to just try take it down right now??

AdMMM

dK1NG wrote:

Just out of curiousity, would it be wrong to just try take it down right now??

Why would you want to take it down when you are favourite to win?

Killme00

The_Chopper wrote:

We're happy to race here definately and want action with this hand.

That's why I would bet small to induce the bluff raise. I want it to look weak and give him rope to hang himself. We'd love to get it in here against KQ, J10, JQ, A10, all hands that you might get called with.

If we shove here he might fold all the above hands and we don't want that. Also if we shove his range for putting all his chips in the middle goes down to over pair, set, or flush. Best case maybe KhQx.

Basically a shove only gets called by hands we don't want to see - whereas a weak bet might get shoved on by hands we want to be against

This is very interesting, thank you

board: QhTh4h
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
AhJ 62.78% 335,277 648
Q* 37.22% 198,675 648

what might this villian have called you with preflop

carfax

I definitely like a shove on the flop here. This puts all of the decision on the opponent (enemy/villian not sure, maybe he's a nice guy).

If he's calling we're in a race or are not in too bad shape against a made flush and we're still leaving ourselves with some chips....... but every time there is a fold we're picking up a nice pot and have a decent stack to push players out of pots with (if we win the 25k pot).

How did it fare out Nicky?, and whats the action like on Betfair at the moment?

Ace2007

|.Murderer.| wrote:

Why would you want to take it down when you are favourite to win?

How are you so sure that we are favourite, if villian has 44, he is 63.838% favourite to win the hand, and if villian has 2 pair he is 55% favourite..

nicnicnic

I dont play much there Stephen, just there to play a couple of wsope satts, still seems a small overlay in most of the guarantees.

anyhow I shoved and he calls with Kh Qx which was good. TBH I was quite happy to take the pot down here. As it worked out I was 51.8% fav in the hand but didn't want to race for 66% of my chips in this particular spot as I felt I could of picked up a lot of small pots the way the table was playing and felt I could easily hit top three before having to take a gamble.

I finished in 11th when two outed river for a 70k pot which would of put back to average

The_Chopper

dK1NG wrote:

Just out of curiousity, would it be wrong to just try take it down right now??

In my opinion it's not wrong to take the pot down here. However I'd be happier if the villian is happier to put his chips in with a wider range than he would if we just shove all in.

Secondly it's getting close to the finish line and need to take advantage of as many favourable oportunities IMO. To win a tournament we need all the chips and this is a good chance to gather some more precious chips.

semibluff

seeing your understanding of the table, then perhaps avoiding this as you said would be the correct decision. probably something that you should have mentioned, but otherwise i think the shove is correct, esp considerin how you like playing 14-9 people out

ul

poorbarman

bet 20k call a shove IMO

Wombatman

poorbarman wrote:

bet 20k call a shove IMO

What is the plan for call and a blank on the turn?

Shove. Be happy to take in down here. If called will always be in good shape.

Hectorjelly

those advocating shoving seem to think it looks stronger, there is no actual difference in pushing and shoving, but shoving looks just a tiny bit weaker and more like a draw. Stupid hand anyway

Captain Tom

Wombatman wrote:

What is the plan for call and a blank on the turn?

Shove. Be happy to take in down here. If called will always be in good shape.

villian has 48k left he's either pushing or folding the flop. if he does happen to call and shoves a blank turn it will be an easy call anyway with so much in the pot.

i think chopper explained well why betting small is probably best.

Wombatman

Captain Tom wrote:

villian has 48k left he's either pushing or folding the flop.

What if villian is Donk-master-donk?
Blank turn brings a check? What then?

If what you say is true, shove is the same as 20k bet. But as Carfax said shove puts all of the decision on the opponent and you can sit back and have a coke and a smile at a point in the hand where you know you most likely have the best of it.

Captain Tom

Wombatman wrote:

Blank turn brings a check? What then?

then we check behind and hope to hit because we have no fold equity.

Wombatman wrote:

If what you say is true, shove is the same as 20k bet

yes but it's not the same as, say, a 12k bet which leaves villian with enough chips to bluff and may do so with hands we have v good equity against rather than narrowing his range down to hands which we are probably flipping with or a mild favourite over by shoving.

The_Chopper

Captain Tom wrote:

villian has 48k left he's either pushing or folding the flop. if he does happen to call and shoves a blank turn it will be an easy call anyway with so much in the pot.

i think chopper explained well why betting small is probably best.

I don't normally post in hand threads although I start a few.

I think people are generally scared to play more than 2 streets of poker in tournaments and if you ask me that's the big difference between cash games and tournaments (without threading on another threads toes )

So many people asking what should we do if we bet small and he just calls and a brick falls - emphasises my point.

In my opinion Irish players wanting to be successful need to snap out of this i have to go all in preflop or on the flop mode. I think OCallaghan described it best when he said (i'm pharaphrasing) "A good player is one who plays the turn and river aggressively".

bops

check behind


....when did ye all turn into scandi's??

cardshark202

Eh this isn't a deepstack situation. Anyone with sense will bet and call all in here. Unless you have some magical read that is which tells you otherwise.

Captain Tom

yeah definitely agree with that Ricky.

it seems a lot of irish players are terrified of playing with deep stacks. so many times ive heard the most absurd rationale for the way someone has played a hand. people way overbetting pots with huge hands "to chase out the flush draws" and raising with AK/JJ type hands and exclaiming "im happy just to get the blinds" is common place.

these kinds of attitudes and just completely counterproductive. when faced with tricky/marginal desisions they often then show poor hand reading abilities and little to no regard for pot control. unless an effort is made it's hard to get comfertable with playing stacks greater than 20bb's.

The_Chopper

cardshark202 wrote:

Eh this isn't a deepstack situation. Anyone with sense will bet and call all in here. Unless you have some magical read that is which tells you otherwise

I never said I wasn't happy to get my money in here - all I said I want to give myself his full range of calling hands when I get my money in.

I think betting 48K into a 25k pot on the flop in ridiculous and I've given my reasons. I also commented I found it funny that people ask "what do they do on the turn if called when they bet small"

Captain Tom (if that is your real name) - remember the hand we had in cork last summer. When you had 66 and I had 10high. I think that was a good example to all how to play through 4 streets and just cos we only had 25-30BB we didn't panic and it wasn't until the river that there was a shove

Captain Tom

The_Chopper wrote:

Captain Tom (if that is your real name) - remember the hand we had in cork last summer. When you had 66 and I had 10high. I think that was a good example to all how to play through 4 streets and just cos we only had 25-30BB we didn't panic and it wasn't until the river that there was a shove

lol that was a sick hand. silly me thinking i had to bluff. i should have checked the river and snap called when you shoved.:)

The_Chopper

Captain Tom wrote:

lol that was a sick hand. silly me thinking i had to bluff. i should have checked the river and snap called when you shoved.:)

Yeah very true - and I would have

cardshark202

The_Chopper wrote:

I never said I wasn't happy to get my money in here - all I said I want to give myself his full range of calling hands when I get my money in.

I think betting 48K into a 25k pot on the flop in ridiculous and I've given my reasons. I also commented I found it funny that people ask "what do they do on the turn if called when they bet small"

Captain Tom (if that is your real name) - remember the hand we had in cork last summer. When you had 66 and I had 10high. I think that was a good example to all how to play through 4 streets and just cos we only had 25-30BB we didn't panic and it wasn't until the river that there was a shove

Yeah I misunderstood what you were saying. I agree with you and Capt Tom pretty much