4 betting NIT

Macspower

reminds me a post we had earlier today..

Villan is a NIT (now that we know what a nit is) playing 16/6.... I'm on his left and have been 3 betting him anytime he did attempt a button raise... he had never called... over about an hour I had done it maybe 7 or 8 times (quite a lot)

I'm playing 27/17 and have a loose enough image taking down some pots at showdown with 57s and 78s after raising. \in general I've been just stealing as the table was very tight (daytime poker lol)

1/2 NLH stacks effective 350ea
Anyway I have JJ in the SB.
Button (nit) raises to 8
I make it 26
He min 4 bets me to 54

I now decide I'm calling for set value only and make the call

Flop A Q J rainbow

I check he bets 75.... me?


well we don't fold sets do we...... I call...

Turn K :eek:

I check he pushes.....

we fold sets.... don't we??

valor

why the hell did you 3 bet pf

Macspower

valor wrote:

why the hell did you 3 bet pf

JJ to a button raise...... Unless I have a reason not to I'm raising here about 100% of the time against a nit like this that is folding to me all the time..

Tell me why I shouldn't.... I'm really interested in your thinking Valor but can find it hard to crack the code in the 1 liners sometimes.... elabourate please ( have you been asked this before :rolleyes: )

OutOfPosition

valor wrote:

why the hell did you 3 bet pf

i agree, but surely its easier for u now u did 3 bet. his range is most ,likely AA-QQ maybe JJ TT or AK and you can beat one of these hands
easy fold

cardshark202

preflop is awful vs a 16/6. just call and you can fold the flop

Macspower

I'm going to keep up my argument for the PF raise...... stubborn me....

If I just call preflop surely I'm stacking off on this flop?? I'm never folding it .... I'm putting him on AK AQ etc etc...
I'm now know I'm beatn and really shouldn't have called his flop bet even...

Opinions?

cardshark202

This guy is raising 6% of his hands, thats a supertight range, when you re-raise him you tighten it even further and now you're playing against a range that absolutely crushes you, like AA/KK/QQ and maybe AKs. when he 4bets you he has AA/KK always. i fold to his flop bet

ocallagh

if macspower has 3-bet the guy 6 or 7 times already in an hour and he has folded each time then surely the 3-bet this time is not so bad. the stats might be skewed somehow. how many hands are they over?

what's his att to steal blinds?

Macspower

cardshark202 wrote:

This guy is raising 6% of his hands, thats a supertight range, when you re-raise him you tighten it even further and now you're playing against a range that absolutely crushes you, like AA/KK/QQ and maybe AKs. when he 4bets you he has AA/KK always. i fold to his flop bet

I agree with you here... i should have folded the flop but he still could have had KK (edit he's not leading with KK on an A flop).. forget i said that... As you say when I 3 bet and he 4 bets he always has AA or KK prob only AA...

but lets take this senario....

Same as above..

He bets 8
I call from the SB with JJ
Flop AQJr

I check and he makes a PSB...

How do we play it from here....

cardshark202

Macspower wrote:

I agree with you here... i should have folded the flop but he still could have had KK (edit he's not leading with KK on an A flop).. forget i said that... As you say when I 3 bet and he 4 bets he always has AA or KK prob only AA...

but lets take this senario....

Same as above..

He bets 8
I call from the SB with JJ
Flop AQJr

I check and he makes a PSB...

How do we play it from here....

I would call, check call turn, if he checks turn i would bet river

Macspower

cardshark202 wrote:

I would call, check call turn, if he checks turn i would bet river

sounds like a disciplined way to play it....

Van Dice

What's the problem with 3-betting here?! I'd have a much bigger problem not 3-betting, 16/6 means 6% of all hands, he's raising 10%+ hands on button, why would you not 3-bet? I can think of very very few sitautions in which I wouldn't 3-bet JJ from SB v a button raiser.

RoundTower

well what do you 3 bet him with if not JJ?

you are going to 3 bet him with all kinds of crap if he consistently raises the button and folds to the 3 bet, it seems kind of perverse to decide to 3 bet him with "any 2 cards except 22-QQ" or whatever you think his range should be.

I think I would play the whole hand the same (assuming you folded turn)

kryogen

why do people have an issue with the 3 bet (hate that term) pre flop? A> what do you want to have to re raise somebody? B> since he has been re raising his opponent frequently he may get a call and subsequently paid off by a weak hand because the guy is sick of being pushed around.. this guy could also have re raised again for that very reason, you have a loose image and you have been frequently re raising him.

if im playing this hand after that flop i want to get my money in on the flop however, your stack is too shallow to be messing around really, i c raise or lead the flop, either should get all the money in there and then, if you think he has you pre flop then its pretty likely he has you post flop and just fold if you think your beat then! your not beating alot of the range your putting him on so just let it go if thats what you really think! of course you can fold a set, probably better not to post it on boards though or you will get lots of "friendly advice" telling you how its a terrible fold.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

I would call, check call turn, if he checks turn i would bet river

You are a big liar.

Macspower

Thinking about this again guys..... with a clear head this morning......

I'm still for the 3 bet p/f. It has tightened his range to AA or KK and his hand is now transparent and I can fold the flop/turn (I folded the turn BTW) and still had a stack left....

If I hadn't raised p/f I'm going broke on the flop/turn... maybe I'm not diciplined enough but I'm deffo going broke....we have a set for gods sake ...... His range now includes AK AQ AJ.... result is I would have no money left...

While respected posters are telling me not to 3 bet here I also have to consider that option but I want a better argument for it please....

Mac

cardshark202

RoundTower wrote:

well what do you 3 bet him with if not JJ?

you are going to 3 bet him with all kinds of crap if he consistently raises the button and folds to the 3 bet, it seems kind of perverse to decide to 3 bet him with "any 2 cards except 22-QQ" or whatever you think his range should be.

I think I would play the whole hand the same (assuming you folded turn)

A 16/6 does not raise every button, its impossible.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

You are a big liar.

plz explain

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

plz explain

You said - if nit raised, and you called with JJ, and flop was AKJ, and nit bet the flop then you would:

I would call, check call turn, if he checks turn i would bet river

I contend, that what you have posted is an inaccurate assessment of what you would really do.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

You said - if nit raised, and you called with JJ, and flop was AKJ, and nit bet the flop then you would:



I contend, that what you have posted is an inaccurate assessment of what you would really do.

Ok, eh fair enough I guess. You obviously know me better than I do. Maybe I would raise the flop and call a shove.

pumpkinpints

cardshark202 wrote:

Ok, eh fair enough I guess. You obviously know me better than I do. Maybe I would raise the flop and call a shove.

you`d prob shove pf.

phantom_lord

Macspower wrote:

Thinking about this again guys..... with a clear head this morning......

I'm still for the 3 bet p/f. It has tightened his range to AA or KK and his hand is now transparent and I can fold the flop/turn (I folded the turn BTW) and still had a stack left....

If I hadn't raised p/f I'm going broke on the flop/turn... maybe I'm not diciplined enough but I'm deffo going broke....we have a set for gods sake ...... His range now includes AK AQ AJ.... result is I would have no money left...

While respected posters are telling me not to 3 bet here I also have to consider that option but I want a better argument for it please....

Mac

u 3bet for info?

valor

some reasons not to 3 bet pf :

1 he is folding all the time - we dont want him to fold because JJ is a strong hand, we want to play a pot with him
2 given the fact he is folding all the time if he DOES call then we are likely to be ****ed
3 JJ is a pretty bad hand to be 3 betting oop imo. basically this comes down to the fact that it can be VERY hard to play OOP because we will almost always have a marginal made hand like a small overpair or there will be one overcard out there, like on a board of K72 its very hard to get value when ahead and not lose much when behind
4 stacks are deep, and if he 4 bets its gonna suck for us
5 anyway, 16/6 does NOT button steal, either his stats havent converged or you've been getting really lucky that he has had the BOTTOM of his range everytime