Rulings for cash tables.

connie147

Two rulings that came up over the week-end that I'd like clarified.

1.- Player returning to the table after taking a 10 min self imposed break, he posts the blind to be allowed reenter but his seat is between the button and the small blind.Is he allowed to post and "buy" the button?

2.- An aggressive player is told as the dealer finishes dealing to the button
"if you raise this time,I'm definately reraising". The aggressive player raises but the player who promised to reraise just calls. Aggressive player calls for a ruling (he wants player B to be forced to reraise) as he thinks its a verbal declaration.

Clarification on the abopve would be appreciated.

Ace2007

1: In some clubs, the player can play as a "guest", i.e just post 1(i think,not entirely sure how the "guest" rule works but some clubs do allow it) and then he gets to play the hand but the button skips him. Or he can post 3 and the gets the button in the next hand

2: I don't think he can be forced to reraise, cause wouldn't that be speech play/collusion which is not allowed....

pumpkinpints

Connie 147 wrote:

Two rulings that came up over the week-end that I'd like clarified.

1.- Player returning to the table after taking a 10 min self imposed break, he posts the blind to be allowed reenter but his seat is between the button and the small blind.Is he allowed to post and "buy" the button?

2.- An aggressive player is told as the dealer finishes dealing to the button
"if you raise this time,I'm definately reraising". The aggressive player raises but the player who promised to reraise just calls. Aggressive player calls for a ruling (he wants player B to be forced to reraise) as he thinks its a verbal declaration.

Clarification on the abopve would be appreciated.

1. Yes i think this is the norm and cant see any reason why they shouldnt be allowed to.
2. Of course he should be allowed to do whatever he wants to do, it was a conditional promise whihc isnt binding, and imo the OR is angle shooting here.

1. There doesn't seem anything wrong with the ruling allowing the player to enter in this position. Different situation than in a tourney.

2. Sounds like the other player was trying to steam the aggressive guy up and succeeded. If the Aggressive Player had any sense he would have smiled at the guy and not got so bothered about him not re-raising.

jacQues

connie147 wrote:

1.- Player returning to the table after taking a 10 min self imposed break, he posts the blind to be allowed reenter but his seat is between the button and the small blind.Is he allowed to post and "buy" the button?

This means that this player missed both SB and BB. So in order to return to the game, both must be posted (regular BB and dead SB). Next hand this player will be CO. The alternative is to wait to be BB. Having said all this, I know that a lot of casinos here in Ireland are not as strict and don't use "BB missed" / "SB missed" tokens.

connie147 wrote:

2.- An aggressive player is told as the dealer finishes dealing to the button "if you raise this time,I'm definately reraising". The aggressive player raises but the player who promised to reraise just calls. Aggressive player calls for a ruling (he wants player B to be forced to reraise) as he thinks its a verbal declaration.

The word "if" was used and conditionals are never ever binding.

jacQues
(ruling hamster)

bottom feeder

A) he can either buy the button or come in as a guest and the button passes him.

just let him steam and watch him lose his money cause the guy shouldn't be forced to raise...

Ace2007

jacQues wrote:

This means that this player missed both SB and BB. So in order to return to the game, both must be posted (regular BB and dead SB). Next hand this player will be CO.

No thats not right - next hand he will be the button...

RoundTower

1. yes in many clubs
2. not binding

Tar.Aldarion

If he is the button, the bb and sb will have to pay twice.

RoundTower

no no one has to pay twice, when he buys the button nobody else posts (unless they have to post out of position).

Ace2007

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

If he is the button, the bb and sb will have to pay twice.

if he posts both blinds - then no one else is in the blinds....

Tar.Aldarion

Does he not pay both blinds and the other two pay the normal blinds?

5starpool

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Does he not pay both blinds and the other two pay the normal blinds?

No. If he buys the button then they pay nothing. Then he is button next hand and they are SB and BB as they would have been if he sat out until the button passed. This seems to be the rule in most Irish claubs at elast, and most don't enforce 'posting' for missing blinds.

Ace2007

no, for example

it goes like this:

seat 1 : button
seat 2 : SB
seat 3 : absent
seat 4 : BB
seat 5: UTG

then next hand

seat 1: CO
seat 2: button
seat 3: posts both SB and BB
seat 4: UTG

next hand

seat 2: CO
seat 3: button
seat 4: SB
seat 5: BB
seat 6: UTG

jacQues

Ace2007 wrote:

seat 1 : button
seat 2 : SB
seat 3 : absent
seat 4 : BB
seat 5: UTG

then next hand

seat 1: CO
seat 2: button
seat 3: posts both SB and BB
seat 4: UTG

next hand

seat 2: CO
seat 3: button
seat 4: SB
seat 5: BB
seat 6: UTG

What you describe is the "buying the button" technique. This should only be allowed for a new player and not for a returning player. As per my post, a lot of casinos aren't strict and allow this. But its not supposed to happen. What I said is correct and goes like this:

then next hand

seat 1: CO
seat 2: button
seat 3: posts dead SB and BB
seat 4: posts SB
seat 5: posts BB

next hand

seat 3: CO
seat 4: button
seat 5: SB
seat 6: BB

jacQues
(ruling hamster)

Tar.Aldarion

That's how I thought it should be.

Ace2007

Well i've never seen this in my life...

jacQues

Ace2007 wrote:

Well i've never seen this in my life...

jacQues wrote:

Having said all this, I know that a lot of casinos here in Ireland are not as strict and don't use "BB missed" / "SB missed" tokens.

Here in Ireland they tend to be "lazy" allright. Same with the raise rule and stuff. Basically the rules make it bad for the players to sit-out. This is good for the game. Seriously, in some places people sit-out for silly reasons and they can do so because there is no penalty. Here in Galway in the 4 aces casino blinds are posted for people that are sitting out (yes, in cash games) to combat this effect. If they had done it right to start with then this wouldn't be needed. :rolleyes:

Another example: In the Fitz in Dublin no post is needed if you return and they simply move the button, so someone returning means that one player won't be BB at all that orbit and another player won't be SB at all. Obviously no one complains about this, but it does make it randomly unfair, however slight. If a casino uses the "BB missed" / "SB missed" tokens then you know its always going to be fair for everyone all the time, not to mention that the staff is (more) professional.

jacQues
(ruling hamster)

5starpool

Correct is a subjective term. There are no universal rules, hence they are different

What some dude who is supposedly an authority writes in some supposedly authoritative rulebook is not binding. A couple of places I played in Vegas applied the buying the button rule the same as they do in Ireland, so it is not just an Irish anomaly, although if you miss blinds they do require you to post both unless you wait for the BB.

Ace2007

jacQues wrote:

so someone returning means that one player won't be BB at all that orbit and another player won't be SB at all.

(ruling hamster)

what??? no one missed out at all - look at my above 3 hand example....
help me out 5star?

Tar.Aldarion

His example has no relation to yours?


and correct is an objective term, for a subjective game

Ace2007

I don't understand - how one person missed SB and another BB?? and that y if u look are my 3 hand example - it explains how no one misses anything...

jacQues

Re: The Fitz in Dublin

Ace2007 wrote:

what??? no one missed out at all - look at my above 3 hand example....

Whoops, you are correct. I confused leaving with returning there. I've seen it the last two times I played there that they simply move the button and don't bother with dead button and/or dead SB (as in no player present). Upon returning you can simply sit down and be dealt in (for free).

jacQues
(ruling hamster)

5starpool

I think what Jacques is saying (correctly) is that in clubs like the Fitz for example, it is possible for a person to not pay one (or possibly both) of their blinds. I don't think he is saying that your example is incorrect for a specific situation. I didn't read it too thoroughly though so might not be fully correct.

If the button is in seat 6, and seat 8 leaves after that hand (where the blinds were seats 7 and 8), then the button is on seat seven and the blinds move to seat 9 and 10, meaning that seat 9 missed his BB entirely that round. If seat 8 returns the next hand, he is in the CO and does not have to post any missed blinds. I still think that Jacques post from between SB and Button but not get the button thing is harsh, and a buy the button technique is better.

Cuban Son

Depending on the club or even sometimes which dealer is on, the returning player can either :

A. Buy the button- this is posting both big and small blinds. Nobody else posts a blind, on the next hand the returning player receives the button and play resumes as it would have, next two players post big and small.

B. Player can guest, posts only a small blind, next two players post small and big. After the hand the guest does not receive the button. Player next to him who posted the small blind does.

In relation to what Jaques is saying, I have seen dealers make players post both blinds, if they have been away from the table for a while, like playing online. But online, a player cannot post both blinds in this position, you usually have to wait till the button passes you to post.

The answer to the second question can be found here:
http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director2/if_you_raise_i_will_go_all-in

Tar.Aldarion

I'm surprised that was so close.

Ace2007

5starpool wrote:

I think what Jacques is saying (correctly) is that in clubs like the Fitz for example, it is possible for a person to not pay one (or possibly both) of their blinds. I don't think he is saying that your example is incorrect for a specific situation. I didn't read it too thoroughly though so might not be fully correct.

If the button is in seat 6, and seat 8 leaves after that hand (where the blinds were seats 7 and 8), then the button is on seat seven and the blinds move to seat 9 and 10, meaning that seat 9 missed his BB entirely that round. If seat 8 returns the next hand, he is in the CO and does not have to post any missed blinds. I still think that Jacques post from between SB and Button but not get the button thing is harsh, and a buy the button technique is better.

yea ok i suppose - but only one person misses one of the blinds, due to this happening...

Ace2007

but in the majority of the cases, a player will just wait to the button passes, or just post the blinds while not there, the example u gave usually happens if someone's phone rings...

NickyOD

connie147 wrote:

2.- An aggressive player is told as the dealer finishes dealing to the button". if you raise this time,I'm definately reraising". The aggressive player raises but the player who promised to reraise just calls. Aggressive player calls for a ruling (he wants player B to be forced to reraise) as he thinks its a verbal declaration.

Clarification on the abopve would be appreciated.

As far as I'm aware there is no written rule on conditional declarations so I don't know why people seem to be so convinced that a conditional declaration is not binding.

It's discussed here and 6 well known TDs are split 50/50 on whether or not he should or should not be forced to raise. I think Matt and Luke's replies are the most interesting one.

I don't mind either ruling as long as it's consistent but if you don't rule that the guy should be forced to raise then you should DEFINITELY give him a warning for blatant coffeehousing followed by a long penalty should he re-offend.

corkie123

seat 1 button
seat 2 sb
seat 3 absent is wrong he is big blind there no other ruling

now if he is like this
seat1 button
seat 2 absent then here he can buy both sb and bb here by posting both then next hd starts



seat1
seat2 button
seat 3 sb
seat4 bb end of story



as for ruling 2 if player states that he is reraising if other player does then he is obliged to reraise min raise at least .but every club have there own rules and there are wat u play by .

Ace2007

corkie123 wrote:

seat 1 button
seat 2 sb
seat 3 absent is wrong he is big blind there no other ruling

In a cash game - if a player(in seat 3) is not at his seat - his BB is not posted, only in a tournament is it posted,

corkie123

sry ace2007 mistook wat u were saying in your first post u are right in wat u are saying

HUSH HUSH

corkie123 wrote:

sry ace2007 mistook wat u were saying in your first post u are right in wat u are saying

I know believe in flying pigs....... Is he saying he was wrong


The only real rule for poker decisions is that each situation is judged on its merits and COMMON SENSE must prevail at all times. Most of the rules are guidelines on how to deal with the situations at hand.

Unfortunately Common Sense is not to be found in alot of the tournaments around the country. The three MAIN exceptions are Luke, Duke and DonalMcA.

corkie123

common sense works with most people but there are different rules every were which is why i ask most places i go as to wat rules they play by . then u have choice of playing or not if u dont like there rules .but once u start then its 2 late then if there rules are different from wat u are use to