Leaving early...a problem?

Kiith

Ok, so i'm moving into a house with two friends for the coming college year, and one (or maybe two) of them are planning on leaving just after christmas. What is the law regarding leaving a house early?

I talked to a friend who worked in property for a few years, and she says that as long as we give adequete notice (i.e. 6 weeks), the landlord cant do anything. And he cant take any of our deposit for anything other then damage to the house/furniture. Is this true?

Normally, we would have said it, but we didnt have alot of choice, and the landlord might not have taken us if we had told him in the first place.

p.s. He is a registered landlord, and will ber registering us.

bugler

Well first of all you need to check the lease. Is there a written lease?

Secondly, your friend is almost certainly wrong. The deposit can be as much to guarantee against loss of rent as it can be for damage. Do not be surpised if he retains the deposit if you break the lease.

flybynight

Kiith wrote:

Ok, so i'm moving into a house with two friends for the coming college year, and one (or maybe two) of them are planning on leaving just after christmas. What is the law regarding leaving a house early?

I talked to a friend who worked in property for a few years, and she says that as long as we give adequete notice (i.e. 6 weeks), the landlord cant do anything. And he cant take any of our deposit for anything other then damage to the house/furniture. Is this true?

Normally, we would have said it, but we didnt have alot of choice, and the landlord might not have taken us if we had told him in the first place.

p.s. He is a registered landlord, and will ber registering us.

I'm not sure what the law states, but you'll need to check your lease carefully. I've been sharing an appartment for the last 2 years and recently resigned for a 3 rd year. One of my flatmates is looking to buy so he was worried about signing again - I contacted the leasing company and they told me that they don't penalise if one or more tenants want out of the lease early as long as the person(s) moving out finds a new person to move in eg advertise on daft or in paper. I suspect a lot of other landlords have the same policy.

BC

Check your lease.
If you sign a lease for a fixed period (e.g 12 months) and you leave earlier then you are legally liable for the rent for the remainder of the 12 months. Many landlords will not enforce this but they are entitled to.

See here for the details:
http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=160

Electric

It all depends on what is in the lease. If it says that if you break the lease you will still be liable for the whole years rent.

However the landlord might be lenient if you give adequate notice and find people to fill the house.

But it all depends on the landlord!!!

starky

bugler wrote:

Well first of all you need to check the lease. Is there a written lease?

Secondly, your friend is almost certainly wrong. The deposit can be as much to guarantee against loss of rent as it can be for damage. Do not be surpised if he retains the deposit if you break the lease.

As long as you have given the required termination notice period as per the
Residential Tenancies Act 2004 regardless of how long or short the lease and have paid rent up to that point then the landlord cannot keep your deposit. If they do then you can have the PTRB chase the landlord for you to get it back.

BC wrote:

Check your lease.
If you sign a lease for a fixed period (e.g 12 months) and you leave earlier then you are legally liable for the rent for the remainder of the 12 months. Many landlords will not enforce this but they are entitled to.

See here for the details:
http://www.threshold.ie/page.asp?menu=70&page=160

Not according to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 as long as you give the landlord the required notice and have proof of the same then you can report landlord to the PTRB, regardless of what lease you signed.

Electric wrote:

It all depends on what is in the lease. If it says that if you break the lease you will still be liable for the whole years rent.

This is ludicrous, I have never actually seen this written in a standard lease, and I have signed a lot of them, I have also never heard of any one ever actually having to do this, this happening is nothing more then a myth promoted by land lords to force tenants into conforming to leases.

Prior to 2004 signing a lease was more or less the only security you had while renting. Now when you move into a property and the landlord registers you with the PTRB then you can go by the termination periods listed for example:

Duration of Tenancy Less than 6 months Notice by Tenant 28 Days
Duration of Tenancy Less 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days 35 days

If the landlord does hold on to your deposit, then you have every right to pursue them through the PTRB as long as you have

1) Given an adequate notice period
2) Paid rent in full to that given date
3) Not caused any damage in the property.

Do not let landlords push you around, as they will try their best. Be firm but straight up and keep copies of everything in case it comes down to the wire. At the end of the day if you have been a good tenant then the landlord should realistically be accommodating.
Remember the PTRB is there for your protection as a tenant, familiarise yourself with the legislation and make sure you use it if you need it.

bugler

Starky, you are incorrect in stating that you can break a lease just by giving notice.

What is the point of a lease then? It is a security measure for landlord and tenant.

From the Threshold link (hardly a Landlord biased site) that BC posted.

"Leases for fixed Periods

A formal lease or letting agreement is usually for a fixed period (e.g. a year). You cannot be asked to leave during that time unless you are in rent arrears or in breach of your tenancy obligations. If you are in rent arrears, you must be notified by the landlord in writing. If you have not met your rent arrears within 14 days, then the landlord may issue you with 28 days notice of termination. You are entitled to formal notice of any claim that you have broken the tenancy conditions and to be given time to set things right.

If you want to leave before the lease is up you could be held liable for the rent for the balance of the letting period. However, if you can arrange for another tenant to take over the rest of your lease, the landlord may agree to this."

The Residential Tenancies act does not provide for a way out of this.

tHE vAGGABOND

Starky - Threshold are an organisation giving help and advice to tennets, and helping prevent abuse by landlords etc. They have been around for a long time, hardly cowboys or anything like that.

I would be stunned if they had incorrect information on their website.

Kiith - Just ring threshold, they are the experts, dont trust strangers on the internet

starky

bugler wrote:

Starky, you are incorrect in stating that you can break a lease just by giving notice.

What is the point of a lease then? It is a security measure for landlord and tenant.

From the Threshold link (hardly a Landlord biased site) that BC posted.

"Leases for fixed Periods

A formal lease or letting agreement is usually for a fixed period (e.g. a year). You cannot be asked to leave during that time unless you are in rent arrears or in breach of your tenancy obligations. If you are in rent arrears, you must be notified by the landlord in writing. If you have not met your rent arrears within 14 days, then the landlord may issue you with 28 days notice of termination. You are entitled to formal notice of any claim that you have broken the tenancy conditions and to be given time to set things right.

If you want to leave before the lease is up you could be held liable for the rent for the balance of the letting period. However, if you can arrange for another tenant to take over the rest of your lease, the landlord may agree to this."

The Residential Tenancies act does not provide for a way out of this.

Read that page again:

"A lease agreement may give you greater rights than those stated in the Act but it cannot be used to deny your statutory rights."

these are just opinions not the law:

If you want to leave before the lease is up you could be held liable for the rent for the balance of the letting period. However, if you can arrange for another tenant to take over the rest of your lease, the landlord may agree to this."

"The Residential Tenancies act does not provide for a way out of "

Regardless of what you say I have more faith in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 its there to protect people from unscrupulous land lords.
what ever either of us think, you can still take a case to the PTRB they will decide not you and not me.

Kiith, your "friend who worked in property for a few years" is spot on about what she said. If you do leave and the land lord keeps your deposit be sure to utilise the legalisation give adequate notice, pay up your rent in full and on time and take a case to the PTRB if you have to.

starky

tHE vAGGABOND wrote:

Kiith - Just ring threshold, they are the experts, dont trust strangers on the internet

tHE vAGGABOND you are of course right, I am just pointing out the legislation. In fairness every case is different as is every landlord, I am just making the point that people have more rights and avenues of complaints then they often think when in rented accommodation, I am not going to get into an argument about it, just voicing an opinion like every one else that’s all.

Afuera

starky wrote:

As long as you have given the required termination notice period as per the
Residential Tenancies Act 2004 regardless of how long or short the lease and have paid rent up to that point then the landlord cannot keep your deposit. If they do then you can have the PTRB chase the landlord for you to get it back.

This is a common misconception. The citizensinformation website has this to say about it:

If tenants have a fixed-term agreement or a lease, they are also subject to the terms of this agreement. This means they may lose their deposit if they leave before the term stated in the lease, even if they give the correct amount of notice.

bleary

I thought I remembered something in the act saying if the landlord refuses to let you sublet the property can't you terminate the lease then.Is that the case??

BC

I've just read that part of the act - see section 186

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

and it does seem to indicate that if the landlord refuses to allow a sublet then the tenant can terminate the lease as per the part 4 notice periods.

Afuera

BC wrote:

I've just read that part of the act - see section 186

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf

and it does seem to indicate that if the landlord refuses to allow a sublet then the tenant can terminate the lease as per the part 4 notice periods.

Good find BC. On the face of it, it looks like there is a legal way for the tenant to break any lease regardless of whether it is for a fixed period or not.

So while it would be illegal for a tenant with a fixed term lease to try and terminate the tenancy before the end of the lease, the following sequence of events would make it legal to do so:

<Tenant>Due to changed circumstances, I have to move elsewhere for work, and I would like to assign the lease to my drunk, unemployed brother who just got evicted from his last place. Is that ok?
<Landlord>No way!
<Tenant>Ok then, if you will not let me assign it to him you can expect my notice of termination in the post tomorrow.

Is it as easy as that or am I missing something here? Not too sure if the tenant would still be entitled to get their deposit back if they pulled something like that though.

antoinolachtnai

The part 4 tenancy rules only apply from the sixth month onwards.

The landlord and tenant can certainly agree in the contract to change the notice period. For example, a notice period of 150 days could be required if terminating in the seventh month.

It is by no means clear from the act that a 12 month lease cannot be upheld. You can read it both ways. The issue is that the 12 month lease gives protection to the tenant over and beyond the Act, in return for protection for the landlord. As far as I know this issue has never gone to a higher court, so there is no clarity about this situation.

In practice, if you break your 12 month lease in practice though, you should not seriously expect to get your month's deposit back.

If your friends leave and you stay, then you will be liable for their rent.

Orual

If there is no break clause on the lease but the property is deemed a serious health risk to the tenant they can leave with 7 days notice.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/landlord-and-tenants-rights/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/landlord-and-tenants-rights/tenants_rights_and_obligations

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/rents-and-tenancies/private_residential_tenancies_board

A large number of tenants that I have talked to have landlords that enter their property without giving adequate notice and without making an appointment with the tenant to enter the property (some enter with no notice at all and some enter the property without notice and when the tenant is not present). It is my understanding that if a landlord does this they have breached the terms of the contract. Would this make the contract null and void?

Victor

Orual wrote: »

Would this make the contract null and void?

No, it isn't that serious. Null and void would be roof blowing away in storm type territiory.

Orual

Victor wrote: »

No, it isn't that serious. Null and void would be roof blowing away in storm type territiory.

So is there any penalty for repeatedly entering a tenants property without their knowledge?

Afuera

Orual wrote: »

So is there any penalty for repeatedly entering a tenants property without their knowledge?

If it was taken to the PRTB they could end up getting a slap on the wrist (i.e. a fine). Most tenants do not bothering following it all the way though as obviously it is going to sour the landlord-tenant relationship somewhat.

Ste.phen

Afuera wrote: »

<Tenant>Due to changed circumstances, I have to move elsewhere for work, and I would like to assign the lease to my drunk, unemployed brother who just got evicted from his last place. Is that ok?
<Landlord>No way!
<Tenant>Ok then, if you will not let me assign it to him you can expect my notice of termination in the post tomorrow.

Is it as easy as that or am I missing something here? Not too sure if the tenant would still be entitled to get their deposit back if they pulled something like that though.

As I understand it, the landlord 'cannot unreasonably refuse' you to transfer the lease.
(if they do, you can leave with the notice outlined earlier.)

But if the tenant you're proposing to replace you would be a serious risk to the property or very likely to default on rent, that sounds like a reasonable reason to refuse