Hand from the SE 1 / 2 PLH......

bottom feeder

Hand from the SE 1 / 2 PLH……

Ok the two guys in this hand are SE regulars and are good players, guy in MP is playing quite LAG. The guy on the button hasn’t played many hands and is playing TAG [imo] i'm also playing TAG.[for a change]

I’m UTG+1 and make it 8 with AK o
MP calls the 8 - then the button makes it 30 and its folded around to me, so I just flat call as does the guy in MP.

Flop is 3d As 8d [pot / 100ish]

Im 1st to act so I bet out 50 …?
MP folds
Button raises it up to 250…..
he has about 370 in total and I have him covered 400ish.

My thinking in this hand was when the guy on the button re raised pre flop I put him on a hand like AK AQ, JJ QQ KK or even AA so I decided to just call & see a flop, but when the A came on the flop I struggled to put him on AA and felt my AK might be good but was worried about the diamonds / no point just calling so do I shove or fold here….?

Edit :- sorry i never mentioned i had no diamonds !

DeadParrot

kd?

How likely is the button re-raising preflop with A8, 33, 88?
I'd need a good reason not to shove here

phantom_lord

i'd probably just get it all in, i don't think there's much in it. but you really should have checked it!

RoundTower

Bet more on the flop or check.

Just ship it in now, he has AK/AA/AdJd/AdQd/occasional bluff or lower flush draw.

RoundTower

also I don't think it would change my decision but mentioning if you have the A or K of diamonds should be part of the post.

bottom feeder

phantom_lord wrote:

i'd probably just get it all in, i don't think there's much in it. but you really should have checked it!

Shane i realize this as i was out of position and know that i should have checked it.

Silver-Tiger

I started a thread with a hand similar to this one a few weeks ago,
In that hand i folded only to be shown AK aswell, Which could well be the case here also,
Everyone in my thread told me to call, it would have saved me some $$$ and it would have been correct to call, so on that basis i call,

I still hate the spot though

Mr.Plough

if the range you give him is correct your murdering it. ship it in

cardshark202

Yeah no way you can fold now. I prefer crai on this flop or c/c and get it in on turn.

NickyOD

Hate the flop lead. It makes no sense. Given your read preflop I think you should just check call. The only reason to lead is to induce the raise you got from a worse hand so if that was your plan you shouldn't really be thinking about folding now.

Having said that it's actually put you in a situation where you could lose the minimum. Now that you're here you ONLY beat AQ and you're racing against AdQd, not only that but I tihnk it might be a little optomistic to include AQ in his preflop reraising range here given the fact that you've been playing tight and you've raised UTG and he hasn't played many hands.

I really think you can isolate his range to AA or AK here and with an AK that he's most likely freerolling with.

I fold.

Macspower

I like your flop lead if it was intended to get him to re raise... if I was the button here I would do exactly what he did with a wide range to a flop lead....

If the above was your intention ship it now......

Mac

Marq

I much prefer the lead toa check-raise. C/R lets him get away from a weaker hand, but call with all winners. Lead-raise-shove gets his money in bad witha lot of his range.

cardshark202

No a lead will make him fold all the stuff he was gonna cbet with that you crush apart from perhaps another big ace. And we don't want him to fold KK here either

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bottom feeder

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If we CR we are getting a continuation bet out of KK. If we lead at the pot and value bet turn we might get two, or even three streets of value off KK. As most players can't stop themselves stationing Ace high boards with it.

I prefer leading too FWIW - it makes more sense to me.

Lloyd the player in question would not lose to much with KK here, if i checked he would probably stick in a little bet and if i called / re raised he would release it.
whats important is that i did hope for a re-raise on the flop but when the button insta re-raised really made it hard for me, its possible he's holding AA - unlikely but its possible...!

if you put your opponent on a similar hand as myself AK AQ AJ with the diamonds - are people still happy to get it in here as there are a lot of possibilities of been outdrawn..

cardshark202

I prefer check-calling and getting it in on the turn, but crai is bett34 than leading imo. It really depends on how likely he is to overplay big aces. If you think he is going to raise all of them after you lead then go ahead and lead. He will almost certainly bet them though. Adding to that, if you check and he checks behind he will almost certainly call a bet with KK or maybe QQ whereeas hes less likely to do so on the flop. Plus checking allows him to bluff.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

mickste

hmmm...

Macspower

mickste wrote:

hmmm...

he is alive!!!

bottom feeder

NickyOD wrote:

I really think you can isolate his range to AA or AK here and with an AK that he's most likely freerolling with.

I fold.

Nicky fair point but,
can you not include KK QQ here and why not AK AQ as he has position in the hand..

NickyOD

bottom feeder wrote:

Nicky fair point but,
can you not include KK QQ here and why not AK AQ as he has position in the hand..

Tell me what he actually had and then I'll answer that.

No I really don't think you can include under pairs. An Ace is the only card most players understand.

I know the fact that he hasn't played many hands doesn't mean he won't sometimes have a huge brainfart because of a total misread with QQ/KK but I think any random player is 100 times more likely to fold them or just call hoping you're you're on the draw.

Look at the size of the raise he's made. It's very deliberate and pot commits him. When the guy hasn't played many hands that's got to be worrying for you. He is basically announcing "I have a very big hand but I'm happy to end it here. If you're flushing back the hell off or prepare to stick it all in on the flop"

bottom feeder

NickyOD wrote:

Tell me what he actually had and then I'll answer that.

No I really don't think you can include under pairs. An Ace is the only card most players understand.

I know the fact that he hasn't played many hands doesn't mean he won't sometimes have a huge brainfart because of a total misread with QQ/KK but I think any random player is 100 times more likely to fold them or just call hoping you're you're on the draw.

Look at the size of the raise he's made. It's very deliberate and pot commits him. When the guy hasn't played many hands that's got to be worrying for you. He is basically announcing "I have a very big hand but I'm happy to end it here. If you're flushing back the hell off or prepare to stick it all in on the flop"

that's a good way to look at it However ! in his position with AA you effectively have the nuts, would you not just flat call on the flop hoping UTG would come out firing again / or instead of raising the pot maybe just raise 150..? as to maximise your value, this was also part of my thinking during the hand.

don't think the result is relevant [if people want to know i don't mind] I just wanted to get other peoples opinions in this situation...

jbravado

He has AA almost never here.Aq is defo part of his range.

NickyOD

bottom feeder wrote:

that's a good way to look at it However ! in his position with AA you effectively have the nuts, would you not just flat call on the flop hoping UTG would come out firing again / or instead of raising the pot maybe just raise 150..? as to maximise your value, this was also part of my thinking during the hand.

don't think the result is relevant [if people want to know i don't mind] I just wanted to get other peoples opinions in this situation...

There's already 140 in the pot so it's not really an over raise when he makes it 250 (Though he should really only be allowed to make it 240 since this is pot limit right?) I know most players wouldn't but if I had AA and thought there was a chance you were leading here on a flush draw I would definitely pot it.

What did he have anyway?

mickste

AQd. The lead on the flop was suspicious to me. I raised it because i wanted to find out how strong bottom feeder was. if had had ak he probably ships it and i'm willing to go with him. any other weaker ace and he's probably folding was my line of thinking

opr

mickste wrote:

AQd. The lead on the flop was suspicious to me. I raised it because i wanted to find out how strong bottom feeder was. if had had ak he probably ships it and i'm willing to go with him. any other weaker ace and he's probably folding was my line of thinking

Why do you want weaker A's to fold ?

Opr

valor

raising there with AQd is really very bad

I never fold the OP's hand

digiman

valor wrote:

raising there with AQd is really very bad

Why do you think this is very bad?
Reason why I think this is bad is that all worse hands than AQ fold but only hands that have us currently beat call

Why this is good I think is because we are drawing to the nuts so I don't mind AK calling here. A set calling is not good but again we are drawing to the nuts if the board doesnt pair. This move also gives good fold equity as well because players can find a fold with AK here to.
Is there any other reasons as I think the good outweighs the bad here
Overall I think this works out +EV

opr

digiman wrote:

Why do you think this is very bad?
Reason why I think this is bad is that all worse hands than AQ fold but only hands that have us currently beat call

Why this is good I think is because we are drawing to the nuts so I don't mind AK calling here. A set calling is not good but again we are drawing to the nuts if the board doesnt pair. This move also gives good fold equity as well because players can find a fold with AK here to.
Is there any other reasons as I think the good outweighs the bad here
Overall I think this works out +EV

Why do you want FE ? We never fold out better hands and lose value from hands we beat?

Opr

digiman

opr wrote:

Why do you want FE ? We never fold out better hands and lose value from hands we beat?

Opr

I think we do want fold equity here against AK as it has us beat and I also think AK can fold here, I dont know how much maybe 10-15% fold AK.
I dont think we will get much more value here from a hand that we beat no matter how we play this to be honest, surely if the player is any good he will slow down a lot with AQ-, KK, QQ and only play on if he hits the turn, in which case we are in even worse shape so I still think mickste play is best.

Also what parts do you think is complete nonsense?

Edited, seen you removed that statement about alot of what I said is complete nonsense

digiman

mickste wrote:

AQd. The lead on the flop was suspicious to me. I raised it because i wanted to find out how strong bottom feeder was. if had had ak he probably ships it and i'm willing to go with him. any other weaker ace and he's probably folding was my line of thinking

Also, I think raising here to find out how strong he is is bad unless we are deep enough to get away from the turn if it is a non diamond. I raise here as I am happy to take down the pot now and am also reasonably happy to get it all in at this stage here unless we are playing very deep, 300+ BB

opr

digiman wrote:

I think we do want fold equity here against AK as it has us beat and I also think AK can fold here, I dont know how much maybe 10-15% fold AK.
I dont think we will get much more value here from a hand that we beat no matter how we play this to be honest, surely if the player is any good he will slow down a lot with AQ-, KK, QQ and only play on if he hits the turn, in which case we are in even worse shape so I still think mickste play is best.

Also what parts do you think is complete nonsense?

Edited, seen you removed that statement about alot of what I said is complete nonsense

Ak is only a marginal fav in the hand. Although i never expect a good player to fold Ak here even if they did 10% of the time it worth very little to us.

Alot of the time a weaker Ace may bet the turn if we flat call. Just because you don't think we will get value from worse hand is no reason to fold out these hands and not try to get value from them.

Its a huge disaster if we get him to fold a worse flush draw.

Lastly, by calling you may save chips if you are up against a set we may get to showdown cheaper, and additionally can probably get him to stack off anyway if we hit our flush as people don't fold sets.

Opr

phantom_lord

digiman wrote:

Also, I think raising here to find out how strong he is is bad unless we are deep enough to get away from the turn if it is a non diamond. I raise here as I am happy to take down the pot now and am also reasonably happy to get it all in at this stage here unless we are playing very deep, 300+ BB

raising to see how strong he is is retarded. why not just call the 50 to hit your outs cheap, and hope he keeps betting a weaker hand? he never folds ak to a raise but will fold his weaker hands.

bops

edit: just seen that it was AQd...

strange rr imo - i like the flop lead btw

jbravado

Calling is fine but its extremely unlikely Wes is putting any more money in if a diamond falls.Villian in the hand probably knows this and is willing to gamble that he doesnt have a set.It looks like Wes gave folding ak some thought so I dont think the raise with aqd is bad.

mrflash

you cannot fold now, its too late, you have ak, there is not too many hands that he could be on that beats you, i would agree with assessment that he might be freerolling on ak diamonds but are you going to fold because of one possibility, if you can seriously put him on that hand its a folding situation, but if its aq diamonds its a call, you have bet out because you feel you are ahead, i presume, so you have to follow through, i wouldnt be surprised to see a flush draw, but no guarantees that he has ak, it could very well be aq, and sometimes guys just get tired and maybe he has kk and decides he is going to go for it. i cannot fold here after the flop, no chance. there is no way i can put him on aa now, you have an ace and theres one on the board. and 8's and 3's dont come into the equation if your read on this guy is close to being right.

its one of those hands, the odd time you are behind, buts its very rare, you will make more money calling in this situation than you will lose. its a deffo call in my opinion. i would put this guy on aq or ak, but not a flush draw, i feel this is the bet of a player who is afraid of a flush draw rather than on one.

bottom feeder

jbravado wrote:

Calling is fine but its extremely unlikely Wes is putting any more money in if a diamond falls.Villian in the hand probably knows this and is willing to gamble that he doesnt have a set.It looks like Wes gave folding ak some thought so I dont think the raise with aqd is bad.

Sam, Mick did really put me to the test and i was thinking of folding - on my part it was a massive call [sry re-raise all-in, around 400 as i couldn’t just call] even though there’s a good chance im ahead i knew if Mick had the EDIT-- A WITH Flush Draw im only slightly ahead, so i chose to go to the races...
As i said i just wanted to hear other people’s views in this situation...

NickyOD

The flop raise with AQd is pretty awful to be honest. You only get called by AK/88/33 and all weaker aces fold.