Greens criticise fundraising tent at races

Heinrich

More of the same on Planet Bertie. I wonder do Ryan, Gormley and Sargent agree with Ó Brolcháin.



Greens criticise fundraising tent at races
31/07/2007 - 06:21:42

The famous Fianna Fáil fundraising tent at the week-long Galway Races represents what is worst about the unregulated culture of political donations in Ireland, the Greens said today.

Minister for Sport and Tourism Seamus Brennan admitted at the weekend that the Government party’s corporate marquee at the Ballybrit Racecourse inevitably attracted annual controversy and should be reviewed.

Guests, including builders and property developers, pay up to €4,000 for a table of ten in the tent, which is usually attended by the Taoiseach and several ministers.

Former Mayor of Galway Cllr Niall Ó Brolcháin said today that the tent was “an annual reminder that the regulation of political donations is woefully insufficient”.

The Green councillor added: “Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour or the PDs didn’t record any donations in their accounts for last year, yet they managed to spend millions during this year’s general election campaign. That is an absolute disgrace.”

Mr Ó Brolcháin said that the Green Party recognised the role of lobbying in the democratic process – both on behalf of corporate and other interest groups.

But it should be transparent and above board and the Fianna Fáil tent at Ballybrit fulfils neither criteria, he said.

“I don’t think that anybody in the Green Party would have a problem with Fianna Fáil politicians attending the races, but the symbolism of the corporate tent definitely needs to be looked at,” he added.

The Programme for Government agreed by Fianna Fáil and the Greens aims to establish an independent electoral commission to help regulate political donations.

Would this be the same Cllr Niall Ó Brolcháin that didn't get elected when he ran for the Dáil?The guy that ran a council that "forgot" to spend an allocation of moneys to look after Galway water?

I wouldn't be listening to him much .

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Would this be the same Cllr Niall Ó Brolcháin that didn't get elected when he ran for the Dáil?The guy that ran a council that "forgot" to spend an allocation of moneys to look after Galway water?

I wouldn't be listening to him much .

Open minded as usual.

What do those things have to do with his ability to have a valid opinion on sleasy fundraising activities?

Especially this part

The Green councillor added: “Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour or the PDs didn’t record any donations in their accounts for last year, yet they managed to spend millions during this year’s general election campaign. That is an absolute disgrace.”

When the socialist party declare more donations than FF you can be absolutely sure than there are dodgy dealings going on

CerebralCortex

Tristrame wrote:

Would this be the same Cllr Niall Ó Brolcháin that didn't get elected when he ran for the Dáil?The guy that ran a council that "forgot" to spend an allocation of moneys to look after Galway water?

I wouldn't be listening to him much .

You love Fianna Fail though.

I wouldn't be listening to you much .

CerebralCortex

CerebralCortex wrote:

You love Fianna Fail though.

I wouldn't be listening to you much .

Actually I don't.I believe in discussion with adequate counterpoints as does the forum.
Now do you have anything to contribute thats actually on topic?

akrasia wrote:

What do those things have to do with his ability to have a valid opinion on sleasy fundraising activities?

Well it's like what I said when the "green" mayor of a city can preside over a lack of action on water when funds are available to do something about it,I wouldn't much be listening to his opinions.

When the socialist party declare more donations than FF you can be absolutely sure than there are dodgy dealings going on

Could you provide me with FF or FG party accounts that show they weren't able to afford their spending on the last election?

When you do that I might start listening to you.

Fratton Fred

the Greens aren't trying to imply that politicians can be bought are they? I mean, we all know that the Green party would never go against their principles just because someone offered them a bit of money or a bit or power. :rolleyes:

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Could you provide me with FF or FG party accounts that show they weren't able to afford their spending on the last election?

When you do that I might start listening to you.

You missed the point Tristame (in a highly arrogant way BTW) I'm not saying they didn't get donations, I'm saying they didn't declare them. They play the system to hide who the main donors to the parties are (and it's not just FF, it's FG and Labour as well)

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

You missed the point Tristame (in a highly arrogant way BTW)

No I didn't I asked you to elaborate...are you able to or do you just make points because its suits your thinking? Thats opinion and not fact.
Tell me,Is there a klingon cloaking device once you enter the FF tent? Are the people who enter it and what they pay not well known?

I'm not saying they didn't get donations, I'm saying they didn't declare them. They play the system to hide who the main donors to the parties are (and it's not just FF, it's FG and Labour as well)

So you are saying that the 3 main parties are getting secret undeclared donations?
You better be prepared to back that up with proof.

By the way,I'm not banning you this time for calling me arrogant something which the charter of this board prohibits...It prohibits it because it's always a sign that the perpetrators own arguments are bereft of proper discussion.
I'd advise that you stop doing this though as it won't be tolerated if repeated.

LostinBlanch

Tristrame wrote:

Would this be the same Cllr Niall Ó Brolcháin that didn't get elected when he ran for the Dáil? The guy that ran a council that "forgot" to spend an allocation of moneys to look after Galway water?

Going slightly off topic here but it'd be the City Manager who has the responsibility for day to day running of council matters. All the council can do is set/ratify the budget and even then they can be over ruled by the City Manager or Dept of Environment if they don't like the decision taken by the council i.e. not passing bin charges etc as happened in Dublin a few years ago.

But getting back to the point the funding of political parties has to be cleaned up. Won't happen if FF have anything to do with it (FG and Labour too).

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

No I didn't I asked you to elaborate...are you able to or do you just make points because its suits your thinking? Thats opinion and not fact.
Tell me,Is there a klingon cloaking device once you enter the FF tent? Are the people who enter it and what they pay not well known?

Oh come on. Are you saying that it's acceptable that the only way we, as the public can get to know who donates to the Biggest party in Ireland, is by going to the Galway Races and filming everyone who enters and leaves the FF tent (and how long do you think you'd last before you'd be 'moved on' by the gardai, the special branch and private security?

So you are saying that the 3 main parties are getting secret undeclared donations?

Yes. All donations below €5000 are undeclared, and there is also a loophole where individual donors can donate as much as they like, as long as the money is used to pay for a fundraiser and doesn't go directly into FF's treasury (In other words, a developer could pay for the entire cost of the FF tent at the galway races, all of the food and security and 'free bets' for people at the party, and still be 'legally' donating, but in secret. How much do you think that party costs to host? 500 people eating luxury foods all day every day for a week? Who do you think pays for it? Your guess is as good as mine, but it's certainly not FF

You better be prepared to back that up with proof.

A €9,330 donation to Fianna Fáil from Renault distributor Glencullen Holdings [Bill Cullen’s company] in 2005 was not mentioned in any of the party’s statutory declarations for that year with the Standards in Public Office Commission.

http://www.irishelection.com/07/fianna-fail-undeclared-donation/

Jackie laughlin

I notice that the list of parties alleged to be hiding large donations started as FF, FG, Lab and PDs. Then the PDs were dropped off. Is there any significance in this? On another thread re the land rezoning scam in Dublin County, I had to point out that opposition dated from way before the arrival of the Greens and that neither Lab nor the PDs had been involved. I think evidence is required before Green supporters try universally to blacken the names of all of their political rivals.

Heinrich

Jackie laughlin wrote:

I notice that the list of parties alleged to be hiding large donations started as FF, FG, Lab and PDs. Then the PDs were dropped off. Is there any significance in this? On another thread re the land rezoning scam in Dublin County, I had to point out that opposition dated from way before the arrival of the Greens and that neither Lab nor the PDs had been involved. I think evidence is required before Green supporters try universally to blacken the names of all of their political rivals.

At least not to blacken the names of their coalition partners!

Villain

I wouldn't discard the article as six months ago "Mr Gormley lashed out at the Galway Races tent and cited it as a reason for the Greens wanting Fianna Fail out of government".

The Green party have protested at the way FF raise money at the Galway races for years, if FF really wanted to try and curb the perception of corruption in Irish Politics they would have done away with the Galway tent long ago. IMO the fact that the tent remains speaks volumes about the party however in the same way the fact that FF got so many seats in the last election speaks volumes about the Irish population too.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Oh come on. Are you saying that it's acceptable that the only way we, as the public can get to know who donates to the Biggest party in Ireland, is by going to the Galway Races and filming everyone who enters and leaves the FF tent (and how long do you think you'd last before you'd be 'moved on' by the gardai, the special branch and private security?

Any journalist will tell you if you're interested,try Jim Fahy or the sports journalists covering the race meeting,it's not like a watergate coverup or anything.There are plenty of googleable media articles on who frequents that tent.

Yes. All donations below €5000 are undeclared,

All? companies cannot donate without recording it in their own accounts.

and there is also a loophole where individual donors can donate as much as they like, as long as the money is used to pay for a fundraiser and doesn't go directly into FF's treasury (In other words, a developer could pay for the entire cost of the FF tent at the galway races, all of the food and security and 'free bets' for people at the party, and still be 'legally' donating, but in secret.

Well not exactly in secret,it would have to be declared in the companies audited accounts.If a private individual wants to give a party €5000 privately,theres nothing to stop them.If a company does the same, it must be declared in their accounts or else their auditors are not doing their job properly.To be Frank with you (going on recent form) I'd have the utmost faith in our newspapers uncovering such donations if they thought they were interesting enough.

How much do you think that party costs to host? 500 people eating luxury foods all day every day for a week? Who do you think pays for it? Your guess is as good as mine, but it's certainly not FF

FF supporters?

http://www.irishelection.com/07/fianna-fail-undeclared-donation/

It would have been more clear cut if you posted what was in the Irish times article.
The relevant explanation is known to you ,see'ing as you've refered to it already in your bit about what you describe as "secret" donations...
Here are the relevant bits from the Irish times article for the record.

The spokeswoman declined to make any comment on specific donations or donors. It is believed, however, that the money may have been used to meet the cost of staging a fund-raising event. Only the profit that the party makes on such an event must be included in its statutory declarations.

IE as you described.I'd have to say I agree with you there, such a donation should be more transparently recorded even though it isn't exactly hidden in this case given that earlier in the Irish times,it was stated that it was declared in the publically published accounts of the donor.

I wouldn't go so far as looking for the names and addresses of the people that put money in the FF and FG boxes at their annual church gate collections though.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Any journalist will tell you if you're interested,try Jim Fahy or the sports journalists covering the race meeting,it's not like a watergate coverup or anything.There are plenty of googleable media articles on who frequents that tent.

If it's so easy, find me one. FF does not release the guest list to the media and I have never ever seen a media article that goes into any detail about the 500 people a day who are buying access to power.

All? companies cannot donate without recording it in their own accounts.

That's not accepable. Donations are supposed to be declared to the standards in public offices commission. That is the mechanism that was devised to ensure accountability in public life. Most developers own their own companies and would be 'donating' money in their own name (and then in the name of the company, and the name of the company directors wife... etc all in amounts just under the maximum amount that doesn't have to be declared.

If a private individual wants to give a party €5000 privately,theres nothing to stop them.

That's the problem. You'll never guess who owns these companys tristame? yes that's right, Private individuals. And these men can donate 5,000 for themselves, and if they like, pay for the entire galway races tent and all the expenses and never declare it in public.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

If it's so easy, find me one. FF does not release the guest list to the media and I have never ever seen a media article that goes into any detail about the 500 people a day who are buying access to power.

First page of My google search brought up names like Dennis O Brien,Sean Mulryan, Bill Killmurray,Michael Bailey, Joe O’Reilly and Noel Elliott....
Honestly akrasia,you knew that, if you googled...There are any number of articles suggesting journalists are ofay with who go's into the tent.
http://www.sbpost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqs=news-qqqid=25459-qqqx=1.asp
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/08/03/story161474138.asp

That's not accepable. Donations are supposed to be declared to the standards in public offices commission. That is the mechanism that was devised to ensure accountability in public life. Most developers own their own companies and would be 'donating' money in their own name (and then in the name of the company, and the name of the company directors wife... etc all in amounts just under the maximum amount that doesn't have to be declared.

I agreed with you already.

That's the problem. You'll never guess who owns these companys tristame? yes that's right, Private individuals. And these men can donate 5,000 for themselves, and if they like, pay for the entire galway races tent and all the expenses and never declare it in public.

Well I'm afraid ,thats a loop hole alright,theres no denying that €5000 is too large a sum allowable as an individual donation to prevent potential abuse .But you must recognise how difficult it would be to close down such a loophole completely.
I'll be right up there with you in your crusade to close it but I'll drop out if you suggest public funding if you don't mind.
That would be a bug bear of mine.
I wouldn't give a political party one red cent of my taxes if I could avoid it.

Heinrich

Some ear bending! Planet Bertie at it's best. What next?

Green Party softens its opposition to Fianna Fail's fundraising tent at races
By Fionnan Sheahan
Wednesday August 01 2007


THE Green Party's stance on the Fianna Fail fundraising tent at the Galway Races softened substantially yesterday.

The party now says it "welcomes" a possible review of their government partner's controversial presence at the Ballybrit racecourse. Before going into Government, the Greens were implacably opposed to the corporate tent and promised to ban corporate donations outright.

Fianna Fail has not actually said it has any plans to review its Galway Races fundraiser. The party expects to raise about €160,000 from the hospitality tent over this week. Guests will pay up to €400 per head to dine with ministers and TDs.

Tourism Minister Seamus Brennan said at the weekend that the tent should be reviewed because it is a lightning rod for controversy. Greens Party councillor Niall O Brolchain said he agreed with the minister and the tent was an annual reminder that the regulation of political donations was woefully insufficient.

"The Green Party recognises the role of lobbying in the democratic process - both on behalf of corporate and other interest groups. But it should be transparent and aboveboard. The infamous tent at Ballybrit fulfils neither criteria," he said. "It is our hope that the commitment in the Programme for Government to establish an independent electoral commission will provide the means to more properly define what appropriate political fundraising is and how it can be undertaken."

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern will be present for two days, hosting the usual array of party activists, property developers, builders and businessmen attending the racing festival.

The party insists there is nothing in any way exclusive about the tent and the vast majority of those who pay in are party supporters.

During the week, 1,700 people will visit the tent, including 500 party grassroots members who will attend on Friday at a cut price €85 each.

Boggle

Tristrane wrote:

There are any number of articles suggesting journalists are ofay with who go's into the tent.

The journalists may know but the standard of journalism in this country is so pathetic/corrupt that it means little.

But you must recognise how difficult it would be to close down such a loophole completely.

Difficult maybe but not impossible.

I'll be right up there with you in your crusade to close it but I'll drop out if you suggest public funding if you don't mind.
That would be a bug bear of mine.
I wouldn't give a political party one red cent of my taxes if I could avoid it.

I'd have to agree with the sentiment but if cutting off any private donations and allowing only public funding was the only solution then its far better than what we have right now. Better pay a lot towards an effective, balanced government than a moderate amount for a shambolic system.

All? companies cannot donate without recording it in their own accounts.

In an ideal world maybe but in reality its only a pipe dream unfortunately.

Would this be the same Cllr Niall Ó Brolcháin that didn't get elected when he ran for the Dáil?The guy that ran a council that "forgot" to spend an allocation of moneys to look after Galway water?

I wouldn't be listening to him much .

Why should you ignore such a valid and important message just cos you don't like the man? Doesn't make sense...

Dont mean to appear to be picking on your posts but the rest of the posters generally appear to agree that blatant backhanders, regardless how they are dressed up, are just unethical...
Would be very interesting to go through the last 5 years of guest-lists and see how many received lucrative govt contracts...

Boggle

Boggle wrote:

Why should you ignore such a valid and important message just cos you don't like the man? Doesn't make sense...

I didnt say I don't like the man-just that he has demonstrated a faux pax which devalues the net worth of his opinions to me.

Dont mean to appear to be picking on your posts but the rest of the posters generally appear to agree that blatant backhanders, regardless how they are dressed up, are just unethical...

It's not easy to put a straight line judgement on that either as big business usually equates to big employment.
That said I don't think you'll find me advocating coruption here,I'm just saying that it's easy to assume corruption if you are that way convinced.

Would be very interesting to go through the last 5 years of guest-lists and see how many received lucrative govt contracts...

I'm sure it would.Big business has a habit of needing to be close to power-they feel safer with their investment decisions.
They needn't or shouldnt be contributing to political parties though.
They should have the ear without that.
By the way one of the most lucrative contracts handed out to one of the guest list at the FF tent was handed out by a rainbow government (Dennis O'Brien) and theres been nothing to show that as having been corrupt.
He appears to contribute to both FF and FG.I'd expect they have a lot of donors in common.

Boggle

I didnt say I don't like the man-just that he has demonstrated a faux pax which devalues the net worth of his opinions to me.

thats fair enough I suppose in general but you really have to look at every issue individually. (even the cleverest academic/scientist makes mistakes but that doesn't mean that they're wrong on every issue)

It's not easy to put a straight line judgement on that either as big business usually equates to big employment.

Not always. More-often it just determines who gets to be at the helm (ie which company secures a contract) as the market generally exists anyway (be it contract or service).

That said I don't think you'll find me advocating coruption here,I'm just saying that it's easy to assume corruption if you are that way convinced.

A fair point. My main gripe is that this facilitates "potential" corruption if that makes sense. The problem is, for a proper system to work then all efforts have to be made to make sure that there is no reason to think that someone is corrupt.
Often the govt is just incompetent - as I've said before, I know large subby's in England who will no longer even bid for an Irish contract. The reason being that there was so much corruption and incompetence that it wasn't worth the effort (I do have sound reason for disliking how FF operate and I'm not just another disgruntled lemming).

I'm sure it would.Big business has a habit of needing to be close to power-they feel safer with their investment decisions.

It really reminds me of the oldest trick in the book (constantly used by Irish sub-contractors back in the day) whereby you ply the main contractor with drink and get them so twisted that they'll sign off any job - or in this case let info slip.
Or you could equate it to product manufacturers taking care of architects so that their products can be specifiect in upcoming work - whether its the most suitable product or not. However you look at it, a company having too close a relationship with a specifier/government is bad for competition.

By the way one of the most lucrative contracts handed out to one of the guest list at the FF tent was handed out by a rainbow government (Dennis O'Brien) and theres been nothing to show that as having been corrupt.
He appears to contribute to both FF and FG.I'd expect they have a lot of donors in common.

Like an eachway bet?? Doesn't rule out curruption just makes sure fewer questions are asked.
(Not that I remember enough about the O'Brien case to draw any firm conclusions)